Why Weak Policies are Bad

User avatar
Neerti
Rarely plays
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 5:06 pm
Byond Username: Neerti

Why Weak Policies are Bad

Post by Neerti » #4224

Bottom post of the previous page:

This is copypasted from oldforums. http://www.ss13.eu/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=4371

tl;dr : Less policy makes admins' jobs harder for political reasons.

I see several admins and players wanting to have a policy, which consists of no other policies besides 'don't be a dick' and maybe rule zero. The intended result is that action will be more swift, that one entity can make all the big decisions, to make things speedy and efficient. However, the people wanting this, I believe, don't take into account player pressure/politics/etc, or don't care. While it would indeed be fast, admins would actually lose power, because of politics. It would also function on subjective rulings, rather then objective. 'Don't be a dick' is subjective because who defines what a dick is? Is stealing something dickish enough to warrant admin action? Murder? Shitting in OOC? Metafriending? Shitcurity? Greytiding? Fucking with people? Anti-antaging things like atmos? Metagaming? Everyone has their own unique opinion on what constitutes where 'the line' is drawn. 'Don't suicide bomb' used to be objective, as doing it would net a ban as a nonantag. Now is it subjective and causes headaches. 'Don't metagame' is also -very- subjective, and I don't need to explain why.

Policy is more then just rules for players to follow. It is a tool an admin uses to ensure that misguided players are converted to good players, that shitlers are expelled, and to make the players happy by doing the preceding two. Policy allows admins to have an established basis to apply a punishment to a problem player, that most players will, at the minimum, recognize that they broke the rule. Without policy, admins must be much more subjective, which will make players resentful, paranoid, and un-trusting of the administration (much more then right now). It also opens up potential power abuse, when the players' fears are sound.

An admin, in my mind,(forgive me for this dumb analogy) should strive to be Good instead of Lawful. Policy is Law, player happiness, order, and integrity of the server is Good. An admin will find it very hard to be Good over Lawful if there is no policy to back their claims that the person is in fact detrimental to the playerbase. The ban/warning/note/etc will be contested by others who believe the admin is abusing their power, by both player, and admin. Without policy, it is very hard for an admin who means well to be just.

If we do have strong, well written, and clear policies, then all players will know what is expected of them, and most players will accept when another player has rightfully broken the rules and been punished for it. There will always be complainers and such, but I imagine there will be less, as "admin is abusing his powers by banning this guy unfairly" won't show up a lot if the ban is actually justified, because there is a policy backing the admin's decision to remove the player, and that the policy is objective.

For an example, another admin asked me what to do, when a player is knocked out, but not dead, sees another player drag them to maintenance and kill them. The player did not see them at all while conscious. The player is cloned, then outs his murderer/goes to robust him, using knowledge he acquired while he passed out to determine the person. The admin asked me if they should do anything to them. Here is the problem.

There is technically no policy against knowing what happens while knocked out (NOT DEAD).

The following below assumes that the admin assumes that using that information IC is not good. As there is no established policy, it is hard to be Good over Lawful. 'Punish' can range from asking them to stop, adding a note, or banning them.

The admin has limited options, most of which will result in a poor outcome for the admin, and justice won't be served, assuming the admin thinks that using that metaknowledge is bad, which I would agree. The admin could,
  • Punish the metagamer under rule zero, or one - Those are very weak policies and punishments are unlikely to stick if the punished contests the ban publicly.
  • Punish the metagamer under an extension of the 'Don't use dead knowledge IC' - This is very debatable, as you're not technically dead, and the game allows you to see what's going on, with names and all.
  • Punish the metagamer under 'No metagaming' - This is possibly the second weakest policy, as it is very, very subjective, and faces the same problems as rule zero or one.
  • Ask a Headmin to create a policy which disallows knowing what happens while KO'd - More policy is seen as a bad thing to some players and some admins. This also takes a lot of time, assumes the headmins all agree that such a policy is needed, and the metagamer will get away unless he was punished, carrying the above problems, unless they are retroactively punished, which carries it's own problems. The result is slow, and the metagamer is likely to get away at least once, which is not Good.
  • Do nothing - The metagamer harms the server, the admin doesn't 'lose' anything but is unjust, and is a failure in my eyes.
This list is very biased towards the concept that the person using the knowledge is in the wrong, but it was what me, and the admin felt, at the time, and most admins would likely feel the same way. Players are much more divided.

Please note that I don't necessarily want 'more' policy (it's inevitable that some things will need to be added, however, chiefly the unspoken rules). I want 'better' policy. Some rules/policies like no metagaming and AI policy are doomed to be subjective, with the only alternative being a really big lawbook of policy, which helps but is off-putting to some.

Here's a rundown of how I think most of the main policy strength is.
  • Admins may disregard any of these rules at their discretion when they feel its in the best interest of the current round/server/playerbase at large.
    • Very weak, makes players afraid.
    being a jerk out of character is not welcome at all.
    • Very weak, rule is ignored often due to 'acceptable dickery'.
    Being an asshole, who ruins other player’s roleplay experience, just to win, is considered a ‘play-to-win’ style of playing.
    • Very weak, what is playing to win? Everyone has their own opinion.
    If you don’t have a solid IC reason for murder, you may be removed.
    • Fairly strong, is enforced, some disagreements.
    IC information should be kept out of OOC
    • Strong, used to be stronger but still acceptable.
    Don’t metagame.
    • Very weak, nobody has the same idea of what metagaming is.
    If you find yourself unable to do this due to real life circumstances, just let an admin know (adminhelp) before you leave, please.
    • Strong, ban is quickly lifted, contesting (someone else's ban) is unheard of.
    Speak like a normal person while in character. Don’t spam, either IC or OOC. Don’t use smileys, netspeak, etc. in IC speech.
    • Moderate, in decline lately due to LELFANNYALLCAPSNAMES.
    All involved players must consent. Unwelcome ERP will be punished harshly, usually with a permaban.
    • Our strongest policy, with good reason.
    Ingame administration has the final say in all ingame matters.
    • Fairly weak, admins are still fallable, and players can post on the forums to have it looked at again, contradicting the rule. I consider this just and disagree with the rule.
    It should go without saying, but if you break the rules (or regularly come very close to breaking them i.e. “toeing the line”), you will be warned, muted, banned, or talked about rudely.
    • Very weak, where is the line drawn?
(Note: this is probably outdated below, since this post was originally made in April.)

CDB, in his recent jobban thread, argues that he is banned on grounds of subjectivity, IE 'he is a shit player/he's poison to the server/etc', rather then objectivity, such as breaking a policy which is objective, IE 'you broke rule X, you're jobbanned for Y days/forever'. I am neutral on CDB's ban, but he does have a point. There is no strong policy that he can be punished for, only rule zero/one, which is weak and subjective, so it causes strife from players who disagree. This happens every time an admin uses rule one or zero.

Usednapkin, when he was previously appealing his permaban, argued that the administration does not wish to unban him on grounds of subjectivity. His permaban was appealed after a shitstorm. He is now a good player.

Oldman Robustin, when he was banned (a lot) because of alledged metagaming. Metagame policy is a very weak policy, and subjective at that too. Shitstorm after shitstorm until his past was forgiven.

I'm not saying any of these people deserve to be banned or not, but there have been cases of bans I feel were justified being contested due to weak policy. I will not name anyone, but it is a problem. With a strong policy, those bans may or may not have occurred, especially Oldman's, which is good if you believe that those bans were unjust.

I do not think getting rid of policies and replacing them with one will solve anything, rather, it will make much, much more problems ahead. I'd like to hear what you think. Again, I am neutral on those past bans(I'm not even involved for most of them). Having all of our policies strong and clear will both allow admins more power to protect the server, and protect players from abusive admins, as we have policies too (they're weak too!).
ImageImage
- Game Admin -
Feel free to PM me on the forums or IRC with questions, concerns, feedback, or just talk about stuff.
Have I not met my hitler quota this month?
User avatar
Kelenius
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:53 am
Byond Username: Kelenius

Re: Why Weak Policies are Bad

Post by Kelenius » #6018

imblyings wrote:With what must be the sole two exceptions regarding nuke ops, non-antags should be free to know anything or everything about antags.
Two? Location of ship and?..
User avatar
paprika
Rarely plays
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Byond Username: Paprka
Location: in down bad

Re: Why Weak Policies are Bad

Post by paprika » #6067

I put fucking turrets on the nuke op shuttle because I'm fucking sick of the retarded argument about that. If someone finds the nuke op shuttle and kills the 60 brute firing, var-edited 350 health turrets on the side of the nuke op shuttle on artyom they fucking deserve to board it, meat knowledge or not.
Oldman Robustin wrote:It's an established meme that coders don't play this game.
AseaHeru
Rarely plays
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:26 pm

Re: Why Weak Policies are Bad

Post by AseaHeru » #6103

And then there are the people who find it randomly.
I am located here, lurking in your posts, leaving piles of transparent wordings and being confused. Oh, I also try to map...

This, this is an example of what I leave for you.
Also, these days I mostly play Ursit McStation, mostly because I like roleplay.
User avatar
imblyings
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:42 pm
Byond Username: Ausops
Location: >using suit sensors

Re: Why Weak Policies are Bad

Post by imblyings » #6132

this is whatI get for posting at 3am in the morning.

just one sole exception. The erroneous second one I was thinking of was the manifest/ooc who thing.
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
User avatar
iamgoofball
Github User
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:50 pm
Byond Username: Iamgoofball
Github Username: Iamgoofball

Re: Why Weak Policies are Bad

Post by iamgoofball » #7860

Angry rant regarding the rules in spoiler, those who are offended by language need not read.
Spoiler:
As it stands, the current ruleset is mostly a complete pile of shit.

It's too fucking freeform, and the admins keep trying to make the rules mean completely different things on each single instance of that rule being invoked.

Hell, I bet 5 god damn deep fried deep fried her huge futa cock boxes of cereal that if I went and murdered 5 people as a non antag, provided enough time, someone could rules lawyer me out of it, depending on what admin was involved and what rule was invoked on it.
SFW version:

The rules are too exploitable due to being too weak, and we've gotten used to the admins backing down and not enforcing the rules so much because every time they do they take serious risk to their reputation because there will always be those 10 guys who argue "well killing 20 people fnr isn't exactly being a dick because of x, y, z, a, b, c plus e" so hard that they would rather die before lose the argument.

I honestly suggest getting someone who speaks legalese to legal up our rules and eliminate the loopholes. Sure the rules would be the size of all the Wheel of Time books combined when they finish, but at least then we won't have to deal with this bullshit.

Oh, and for those whining that they shouldn't be allowed to use rule 0 to ban people, what we know as Rule 0 is commonplace in 90% of IRL businesses and also in all those online games you love to play's EULA that you signed and are legally bound by.

I could be banned from the fourms this instant by, let's pick a random admin, say, MrStonedOne, for the reason, "dicks dicks dicks" and no one has any obligation to do anything about it. Because they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone. This is not implying they would ban me or that this particular admin could ban me, but acting like they do not have the "right" to ban you from the fourms is down right terrible.

Errorage reserves the right to refuse service to anyone.

The staff of TGstation reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

The staff of BYOND reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.

Scaredofshadows reserves the right to refuse service to anyone.

Literally every business and video game you play, you have signed an agreement stating that they have the right to refuse service to you at any given time.

Getting pissy over Rule 0 existing is just plain stupid when you already agree to a variation on it in pretty much every single online service ever.

Overall, most of our policies and rules are so weak and exploitable it's not even funny, and players don't want to change it because "m-m-muh rules lawyering to get out of 90% of bans!!!"


tl;dr, the current rules are too freeform and get enforced differently from an admin to admin situation to situation basis. Which is bad. All rules need to be enforced the same. All admins need to enforce rules the same. Otherwise we're gonna end up with the same problem over and over again no matter what rules we put in place.

tl;dr the tl;dr, make the rules a hell of a lot less freeform, force admins to enforce the rules in one particular way in all situations involving that rule.

Only then will this problem be solved.
User avatar
bandit
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 7:35 pm
Byond Username: Bgobandit

Re: Why Weak Policies are Bad

Post by bandit » #7895

Going back to an earlier post, the problem with "it's just a balloon!" is that the in-game text explicitly identifies it as a "syndicate balloon." Other traitor items work the same way. If you don't want people to meta off that, you can't dangle the means to meta right in front of them in-game.
"I don't see any difference between ERP and rape." -- erro

admin feedback pls
Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users