Security needs new rules

[ZiggyValencia]

I recently started playing Bartender at the suggestion of a friend. I've been enjoying it a lot, but I had never known why he started with a shotgun.

Until I had to kill someone every round without about the first 10 minutes of the game. Every time. Without fail.

One fucker stole the booze o' mat while I was otherwise occupied. He took it into maintenance and defended it to the death.

I could never get it back because, regardless of how many times I requested security, they wouldn't come help. It doesn't matter what the situation is. It could be "Help, that guy is acting like a syndie" all the way to "Help, this guy is literally killing me with a knife oh god" and they just won't come fucking help.

I think it would be really helpful if there was some kind of policy in place for getting sec to help in situations where one cannot just shoot people with the double-barrel. Preferably, putting these new rules on the wiki.

I understand it'll still be players making decisions, but then at least we can go to someone and say that sec isn't doing their job with some source to point to.

Thanks for reading. I hope to be able to drink instead of shoot.

[Ikarrus]

I think it's more often than not that security is understaffed or overworked to be able to respond to calls for help like this.

You wouldn't believe how much of a timesink one or two griefing assholes can be for security. Current server culture discourages playing security as well, although it's been improving over the last few years.

[Alex Crimson]

This doesnt seem like something that can be solved with rules. Its very much a player thing.

From what ive seen things are much better than they used to be, at least. Maybe give Sec more toys to encourage people to play them?

[ThatSlyFox]

Takes to much time to handle one shitler for theft. Not enough security officers most of the time as well since the job can be tough.

Anything that makes people want to play security more is most likely buffing them which is a terrible idea.

[lumipharon]

Security suffers from serious snowballing.

If there's a decent number of roundstart sec, there's a very good chance you'll get more late joining sec.
If there is little or no roundstart sec NO ONE LATE JOINS SEC.

People take one look at the manifest/available jobs, see no sec and just NOPE the fuck out of there - it's just not worth the (highly probable) suffering of stepping into the middle of a shitfest.

[Antimattercarp]

Security suffers from serious snowballing.

If there's a decent number of roundstart sec, there's a very good chance you'll get more late joining sec.
If there is little or no roundstart sec NO ONE LATE JOINS SEC.

People take one look at the manifest/available jobs, see no sec and just NOPE the fuck out of there - it's just not worth the (highly probable) suffering of stepping into the middle of a shitfest.

More than once I have seen
HoS[0]
Warden[0]
Security[1]
and noped the hell outta there.
I have actually begun latejoining to avoid being lonesec

[Arete]

It would be interesting to try scaling antags against sec population rather than against server population as a whole. Though, that might not solve much since non-antag greytiders probably contribute more to people dreading playing sec than antags themselves do.

[onleavedontatme]

If admins did not protect griefers to the point where security is obligated to play catch and release with them this wouldn't be such an issue.

Or if the bartender was allowed to just kill the person ruinong his round for no reason

[Steelpoint]

As noted above, this is a problem of the lack of Security personal in rounds. I will admit that I tend to avoid playing Sec when I see either no one or only one person in Sec during a round.

When there's only one or two people in security, they are going to be to busy dealing with the things thrown at them to be able to help other people.

[callanrockslol]

If admins did not protect griefers to the point where security is obligated to play catch and release with them this wouldn't be such an issue.

They don't though, aside from executions you can fuck with griefers pretty hard as most jobs, sec just have higher standards as to what they are allowed to do once they catch them. Its not hard to send them to the gulag for a while for threatening you all and smashing things.

[peoplearestrange]

If people are greytiding/griefing your department (other than the clown or mime, they have... privileges) for no reason you should definitely ahelp it. The admin team has worked hard to move away from the greytide crap that used to happen every round on Sybil.

[QuartzCrystal]

If admins did not protect griefers to the point where security is obligated to play catch and release with them this wouldn't be such an issue.

Or if the bartender was allowed to just kill the person ruinong his round for no reason

You'd be hard pressed to find an admin who will take issue with a griffon being sent to the gulag or just straight up thrown in perma for being a douche. I've seen plenty of adminhelps in the past few months that go like "Hey I was thrown in perma even tho space law says it's a 6 minute sentence!" then it turns out they had broken into the bar 4 times and tabled 5 people at the HoP desk and they just go ignored (rightly so).


Anyways, the problem with security, and I've been saying this for years, is that it's more fun and quite honestly easier to run away from security than accept your 3 minute sentence, because the entire process of being searched, stripped, put in the cell, cuffed to the bed, flashed, uncuffed, flashed so you can't unbuckle, etc etc etc ends up taking forever. Every time someone calls for security to have a buff that lets them process criminals faster it's called OP (an idea that gets thrown around a lot is some sort of teleporter that only works on cuffed individuals, sends them to a holding area for the warden to then process). There needs to be an encouragement for players to cooperate with security more beyond just an RP motivation. If gameplay actually made a minor prison sentence an actual minor sentence people would accept them more often and not chucklefuck around the station for 40 minutes distracting security.

[Akkryls]

If admins did not protect griefers to the point where security is obligated to play catch and release with them this wouldn't be such an issue.

Or if the bartender was allowed to just kill the person ruinong his round for no reason

You'd be hard pressed to find an admin who will take issue with a griffon being sent to the gulag or just straight up thrown in perma for being a douche. I've seen plenty of adminhelps in the past few months that go like "Hey I was thrown in perma even tho space law says it's a 6 minute sentence!" then it turns out they had broken into the bar 4 times and tabled 5 people at the HoP desk and they just go ignored (rightly so).


Anyways, the problem with security, and I've been saying this for years, is that it's more fun and quite honestly easier to run away from security than accept your 3 minute sentence, because the entire process of being searched, stripped, put in the cell, cuffed to the bed, flashed, uncuffed, flashed so you can't unbuckle, etc etc etc ends up taking forever. Every time someone calls for security to have a buff that lets them process criminals faster it's called OP (an idea that gets thrown around a lot is some sort of teleporter that only works on cuffed individuals, sends them to a holding area for the warden to then process). There needs to be an encouragement for players to cooperate with security more beyond just an RP motivation. If gameplay actually made a minor prison sentence an actual minor sentence people would accept them more often and not chucklefuck around the station for 40 minutes distracting security.

Doesn't / Didn't Goon have a teleporting pod that you just shove someone in, and it teleports them to the brig?
On that note, Goon also has the chutes leading out of the prison which decuff you as well.

Goon does actually seem to have a bit more focus with Security on fun over never-ending-prison-torture.

[QuartzCrystal]

-snip-

This has been talked about at tedium for years. Copying Goon is another possibility. We just need a coder to actually do it.

[Scones]

Detainer Teleporter for cuffed people would be cool if we got a brig remap that worked sort of like Bay with a holding area. Warden gets a computer that let's him choose what cell they go into and for how long. Bam, processing time = nil.

[Alex Crimson]

Isnt the manual brigging part of the fun? Prisoners trying to escape rather than some one-press button that does all the work for you.

[QuartzCrystal]

Isnt the manual brigging part of the fun? Prisoners trying to escape rather than some one-press button that does all the work for you.

Please read my post above.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Isnt the manual brigging part of the fun?

Hahahahahahahaha No.

God I would kill for an easier brigging process. Or players that weren't buttheads. So easier brigging process it is.

EDIT: Easier in that if someone gets arrested, they know all the have to do is spend some time in the brig and get out. Remove the motivation to be uncooperative with security.

[QuartzCrystal]

It's gotta be a system that you can actually escape (let's say the teleport takes like, a bit to go through). But is significantly faster than the system we already have.

[Ikarrus]

Replace brig cells with timed cryo cells

[lumipharon]

The gulag is the ideal system for dealing with shitters.
With a normal brigging, the shitter can just wait it out/go afk, and then get back to being a shit.

With the gulag, they actually have to apply effort to get free again. 90% of shitters will just ghost or suicide rather than do that.

[Ikarrus]

For real though, I think most of the tedium comes from actually brigging them, not bringing them back.

It'd be nice if we had a machine that we could just put the prisoners in that automatically stripped them, set their belongings inside, gave them prison garb, put them in their cells, and set the timer (That the officer would have to set before stuffing the prisoner in). It would have to let security search his belongings while at the same time giving them back to the prisoner when the timer is up.

All this work can be time consuming if done manually, and frankly may take several attempts before a newbie gets it right. And when it doesn't go right, shit happens and suddenly they're down one brig cell, or worse, they're suddenly being strangled. And then you don't feel like playing security any more.

Actually getting the prisoners cuffed and brought to the brig should be enough challenge as it is. They could be spared the time-consuming frustrations of actually processing the prisoners once they're there. Because as it is right now you HAVE to be excessive (Bed cuffing and closet shuffling) or they're going to break out. And that's not a pleasant experience for anyone.

[QuartzCrystal]

Then while you're trying to process the prisoner an assistant runs into the brig and the warden ends up stunning the entire room trying to stop him, the lawyer is demanding he speak to his client privately, people are screaming over radio that they need back up, etc and all you want to do is just give this guy his 2 minute sentence for breaking a window.

[Alex Crimson]

and you guys wants to lose that magic. You want to replace jobs with machines that do all the work for you. Back in my day...

[John_Oxford]

This doesnt seem like something that can be solved with rules. Its very much a player thing.

From what ive seen things are much better than they used to be, at least. Maybe give Sec more toys to encourage people to play them?

I hate to quote from literally the top of the thread, however.

Instead of making it where it takes a button press to brig someone.

Give security now, Gunsmithing, i'm working on a refurb for security, extends the armory out a bit, makes room for gunsmithing machinery and parts.

I bet everyone and their cousins brother is going to want to make a stun sniper rifle that fires 10000 rounds a second, and try it out on some shitler.

There are limitless possiblitys for guns, so don't make the arguement "Well, people will eventually make all the different kinds of gun combos, and it will get boring"

Posts on Gunsmithing, ect ect
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3451 - Attempt to merge with engineering, some discussion, addition of bullet creation (Engineering Merge Failure)
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3339 - Explaining how everything worked, attempted to merge with cargo (Failed)
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3330 - Vote on if i should bother to makes sprites for this/put effort into it (Won by a land slide)

[Shaps-cloud]

The people who would only want to join security to make massive guns and shoot people with them are the people you don't want joining security

[Mastigos]

>Not setting sec roles to high and medium as Alistair Tenpenny

WASTELAND SAFARI

[Incomptinence]

Bring back hos authorized executions, that random soslaw declawed the head of the department.

[Allohsnackbar]

>Not setting sec roles to high and medium as Alistair Tenpenny

WASTELAND SAFARI

Oh my god my sides.
Hunting the grey wastelanders

[Scones]

Bring back hos authorized executions, that random soslaw declawed the head of the department.

It's totally a thing.

[onleavedontatme]

Bring back hos authorized executions, that random soslaw declawed the head of the department.

Bring back traitor security, so greytiders can end up mysteriously dead.

There is no more satisfying moment as an admin than answering "valid" when a greytider gets executed by the traitor HoS

[TheNightingale]

Special traitor Security, where they don't have any objectives but don't have to follow Space Law.

Be the Security this station deserves. Not the one they need.

[callanrockslol]

Then while you're trying to process the prisoner an assistant runs into the brig and the warden ends up stunning the entire room trying to stop him, the lawyer is demanding he speak to his client privately, people are screaming over radio that they need back up, etc and all you want to do is just give this guy his 2 minute sentence for breaking a window.

If you brig people for anything under 5 minutes you might need to play another job, a talking too works for anyone that isn't a massive shitler.

[TheNightingale]

Carry a pair of zipties on you, strip their radio (leave it in their pocket) and bucklecuff someone to the nearest chair. Bam, instant two-minute sentence in the field.

[Aurx]

Carry a pair of zipties on you, strip their radio (leave it in their pocket) and bucklecuff someone to the nearest chair. Bam, instant two-minute sentence in the field.

And an a-help waiting to happen if an antagonist stumbles across them while they're helpless.

[Steelpoint]

Carry a pair of zipties on you, strip their radio (leave it in their pocket) and bucklecuff someone to the nearest chair. Bam, instant two-minute sentence in the field.

And an a-help waiting to happen if an antagonist stumbles across them while they're helpless.

Still seems more quick and efficient than dragging someone to the brig for a minor offence.

[Saegrimr]

That's actually a pretty good idea if you catch someone dicking around in maint. Then again catching people doing shady shit in maint is usually "im doing obvious traitor shit" and not a 2 minute brigging for getting in a fistfight with the bartender.

[Steelpoint]

It would be more situational I assume, if someone's doing really shady stuff then you could take the effort to drag them off and search them. But if its some obnoxious guy flinging stuff at the Bartender just cuff and toss them in some chair and call that the sentence.

If they come back for more then just toss them in the Gulag/Perma/Timed Cell.

[Malkevin]

If people are greytiding/griefing your department (other than the clown or mime, they have... privileges)

No, no they fucking don't. If you seriously believe this as an admin you need deadmining.


The clown and mime's jobs are to entertain people, not themselves.
If they want to be a dick to people they can wait for antag like everyone else.

[Saegrimr]

I actively encourage sending clowns and mimes down disposals if they're being shitheads.

Just don't kill em unless they're being abnormally hostile.

[Ikarrus]

>people not remembering the days when clowns got jobbanned for being an unfunny clown.

Don't let this stupid clown grief culture get to you. Jobban griefing clowns and mimes.

[Falamazeer]

To me, it's honestly just getting called shitcurity for not having the tools I need to succeed in the first place, I'm either too unresponsive (Read:busy with one to two repeat asshats)
Or I'm being "fun police" (Read:stopping looters) And of course, the all too common third alternative wherein I'm dead just outside the brig and nobody gives a shit.

to be fair, admin backup has come a long LONG way from back in the the nightmare days, I get Ahelped for arresting people 4noraisen, Explain my actions, and am left to my own devices, It's nice the "teh godz" are no longer a valid weapon to use against officers, so good on you guys Bravo admin team.

Might be time to revisit the old idea of eliminating security and running it off cyborgs instead, Nerf AI in other ways to account for having loyal stunning death bots, but it might work. right guys?

[Scones]

Honestly, Security policy looks fine to me.

Security playstyles are not the stylistic choices of Security players but rather the way they are forced to play to ensure they do not get steamrolled by both greytiders and antags alike. If you want to see Security change, you need to see the way people interact with Security change. More often than not both in my personal sec experience and admin observation experience I find that it's not sec even antagonizing people, it's people coming into the game with an anti-security attitude.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Suggestion: Replace brig cells with one massive brig cells. Warden's office sticks out into it. Arresting officer enters a time, name, and crime on a console, then sticks perp in the Jailbird-O-Matic.
That strips their exosuit, belt slot, backpack slot and pockets, then slaps an over-the-top orange prisoner poncho onto them, puts the jail ID in their hands, and spits them into the pen. When the timer for a prisoner runs out, a speaker shouts the name on their card, and they can then jump into a chute. If they don't have a card due for release, they get spat back in.

Adds cool dynamic play like hard-timers ganging up on low-sentence guffies for their prisoner ID, in-brig interation, and assistants punching beepsky then selling their 1 minute prisoner IDs to people who are in for like 10 minutes.

Its probbably a shitty idea but it sounds hilarious to me.

Oh, and the lawyer is replaced with the Baggage Claim Clerk, who sits in an office outside the brig and takes claims for confiscated items while an endless stream of backpacks flows past.
Traitor clerks give people the wrong stuff, swap it around, and hide mousetrap bombs in the chaplain's holy book.
~

[Incomptinence]

Bring back hos authorized executions, that random soslaw declawed the head of the department.

It's totally a thing.

You mean no one cares anymore so it isn't enforced so hos can order people executed?

[Cheimon]

There's a lot of horrible ideas bouncing around this thread. I'm assuming they're jokes, but just in case...

Giving security modular guns is not going to make people trust them more. It will encourage security to shoot people more. Once security starts injuring people (particularly with Collateral Damage[tm]), innocent people start taking a much harder view of security, and security's job as a whole gets vastly tougher. It's also not going to get 'robust' people to join security. You'll get people joining up to have the guns, sure, but plenty of them will be rubbish as security as a whole and may well be rubbish at shooting guns too, causing a lot of unnecessary harm.

Giving security traitor has more or less the same effect. People no longer feel able to trust security on any given issue, meaning uninvolved people want to intervene, and are more likely to do so. It means security cannot make arrests that are uncertain unless they go about them in the most horrible way: beat, remove headset, cuff, ensure no communication with outside world, etc. This is not fun for people being arrested, and ultimately it's not that fun for non-traitor officers either.

And finally, just to make sure that people are even less keen on being arrested, make sure that everyone's gear is removed from them automatically on arrest, put in a big sorting room, and handled thoroughly by someone who may well be an antag and has every incentive to confiscate whatever he wants, mishandle things anyway, and generally be less useful than a locker in the same cell. This is already bad enough when security lay out people's possessions in the brig hallway instead of in the cell. It'll be far worse if there's an entire job centred around fucking with luggage.

Having said that, some of the concepts for EasyBrigging are quite nice. I like the concept of easier ways to remove cuffs safely. What I've got used to is a fully restrained search, followed by buckling and uncuffing for the non violent (and if they decide to attack me, they shouldn't be able to best everyone in the brig and they'll definitely get worse treatment next time), or unbuckling and leaving the cuffs on for the violent. Shame really, but losing a pair of cuffs is just easier than the entire fiddle that is stunning, uncuffing, and hoping they don't know how to resist out of a bed and disarm you fast enough.

[Incomptinence]

People almost never trust security even when they were jumping through hoops and being bwoinked constantly and scattered to the four winds across the station there was no "trust". Try nicely cooperating with security you can tell they are shocked you didn't run like a 2 minute sentence for a minor crime was the death penalty.

[oranges]

Force fill security at roundstart.

the experience will be good for everyone

[John_Oxford]

I wasn't referring to the station "Trusting" security, as that's never been the case on any SS13 server.

I was referring to the fact that security lacks members on a normal round, as well as when they do actually have people, they are spread far and wide chasing shitlers. Due to the fact that they couldn't take down the suspect quick enough. Giving security gunsmithing (Not Modular guns, thats not what this is) encourages them to build guns to suit their needs.

IE: Detective doesn't like carrying a tazer around, it's to out in the open.
So he asks the warden/armory officer to make him a tazer pen.
20 minutes later, while he is sitting in the bar, the clown walks up to him and pulls out a stun prod out of no where.
But the detective, having a pen himself, was able to whip it out and taze him quick enough. (Without a obvious in-hand tazer sprite, diminishing the risk of the clown bolting screaming "SHITCURITY" as he scurries into maint.)

IE #2: The HOS hears the AI shouting over command "NUKE OPS IN THEATER, NUKE OPS IN THEATER"
The HOS just so happens to be passing by the bar, instead of running in there with his one tazer and e-gun, he runs back to the brig, to get a Pulse-Minigun.
Then he proceeds to completely shrekt all the Nuke Ops.



Both above examples are extreme cases of conveniance, and are unlikely to ever actually happen during the course of events of a real TG round.
However, these are both the Subtle (#1) and Brute Force (#2) extremes of using gunsmithing in order to deal with station/security/crew threats.

[Scones]

John, with all due respect, please stop shilling for gunsmithing in threads entirely unrelated to it.