Workplace Invaders

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:04 am #83962

Okay, so a few years back I copped a mega bullshit ban for killing an assistant that kept trying to break into cargo despite me non lethally kicking them out each time.

The bright side of this is that we got a headmin policy made that stated you were allowed to defend your department from invaders by any means at your disposal including killing them, as long as you didn't hide their corpse.

This later got changed to saying that you could only take them as enthusiastically volunteering, and that you couldn't outright kill them.

On paper that's all well and good, but most departments don't have have the means to nonlethally detain someone, and its quite likely the invader is either going to use that as a cue to escalate the fight to where they kill you first or they're an antag and they're there to kill you in the first place.

So I think we should go back to the simpler 'you can kill invaders' policy, because people shouldn't be having to break into occupied departments anyway

TheNightingale · Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:15 am

If they break into Robotics, they're clearly doing it to get borged. You might as well hasten the process.
And Genetics similarly; they want TK/Hulk, so lock them in a scanner and test the blocks on them.

You note that 'most departments don't have the means to nonlethally detain someone' - but this isn't true. You can easily crit someone, cuff them, then buckle them to a chair in medbay foyer whilst you apply just enough medicine to keep them alive.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Medbay have the best tools to deal with people creatively. If someone's trashing the place, saw them into crit, straightjacket and take off their headset, then patch them up and put them in surgery. Then have a surgeon take out all their un-needed organs, change their gender, change their name, patch them up and throw them out into the hall wearing a grey jumpsuit and a gas mask with no ID

Works best in the first few minutes of the round too. (Not on crew manifest/unknown in gas mask , grey jumpsuit, jackboots from the secpost. AI will probbably declare them a nuker to security, so let the long arm of the LAW deal with your problem)

TheNightingale · Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:55 am

But medical's also full of unrobust scrubs like me who can't saw people anyway.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:00 am #83974

TheNightingale wrote:You note that 'most departments don't have the means to nonlethally detain someone' - but this isn't true. You can easily crit someone, cuff them, then buckle them to a chair in medbay foyer whilst you apply just enough medicine to keep them alive.

Yeah, sounds great until they type succumb and you get ahelped anyway.

Which I guess is another related thing we can discuss.
Used to be policy that if you succumb after someone critted you it would invalidate your right to ahelp because it doesn't allow your murderer to demonstrate what their intention was - crit to neutralise you or crit to remove you.
This has recently, but not for the first time, become a matter where admin opinion is inconsistent with some going by the old way (basemin way) and others saying that crit = murder (the fagmin way)

And then theres the admins that say "I killed him but I also got him cloned" isn't an excuse and still ban you for murder

It'd be really good to get a proper hard headmin ruling on these three points.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

The rule as I've applied it is that they are open to 'fun'.

This is a tad subjective but it basically means you can do what you want other that just straight up murdering them, even if it's a bit dangerous., and as long as they can be recovered by medbay or security and you aren't a dick about it.

They break into xenobiology? Throw em in a slime pen. Virology? They live with the disease monkeys now.

If you're going for direct "Get the fuck out of here" then the worst you should be doing is critting, and only if you have no non-lethal options. A crit, cuff and heal is your best bet in these cases.

Also admins universally treat succumbers like shit so that's not really relevant malkevin. Unless you have a specific example of an admin actually doing this it's not a point worth addressing. PM if this happened or make an actual admin complaint.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:51 am #83979

I can't remember a specific incident off hand, but there was one of a few months back that I believe either vector or skarvold handled.

QuartzCrystal · Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:03 pm

If you notice an individual has a particular habit of doing this then ahelp it. There are some players who have notes like "Has a habit of breaking into the bar" a month ago and then escalated to "Has been given his final warning for breaking into the bar, ban if he does it again". Serially breaking into a workplace seemingly every round proves being critted (or even killed) isn't doing much good to discourage them.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:28 pm #83992

After how many attempts is it ok to permanently remove someone? Remember it only takes losing a fight once to get yourself dunked out of your workplace and your id stolen.

Ikarrus · Post by **Ikarrus** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:30 pm #83993

Some workplaces have no means to nonlethally detain someone. We shouldnt require absolutely everryone to carry cablecuffs either, because that's just punishing thise who don't buy into the hoard-everything-just-in-case mentality.

If someone is being a huge pest, has ignored your obvious warnings/threats, and you don't have a means to disable them, just kill them.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:58 pm #83995

Not some, most.

Sec and Medical are the only departments that have non-lethal means that they'd be expected to carry, although even medical are generally discouraged from carrying around a syringe gun and a belt full of sleep toxin syringes.

Science/Robotics/Cargo/Engineering can churn out as many stun prods as they feel like, but again are highly discouraged both IC and OOC to carry those around.

Barman/chef/hydro/lawyer/librarian/chaplain/janitor/atmos techs don't have access to any non-lethal tools unless they raid assistant storage ahead of time and are lucky that the grey-backed valid-hunters haven''t used them already.

Erbbu · Post by **Erbbu** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:14 pm #83999

Can't you grab someone by the neck and drag them out, provided that you land a lengthy stun on them? Or am I wrong about that?

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:17 pm #84000

It depresses me that it doesn't ever cross anyone's mind to call security in these situations.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:20 pm #84001

Erbbu wrote:Can't you grab someone by the neck and drag them out, provided that you land a lengthy stun on them? Or am I wrong about that?

They're not stunned long enough

Stickymayhem wrote:It depresses me that it doesn't ever cross anyone's mind to call security in these situations.

It depresses me that someone can get elected headmin without knowing that security is rarely if ever reliable.

Alex Crimson · Post by **Alex Crimson** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:39 pm #84006

Calling Sec is great and all, but it doesnt help you solve the immediate situation of an Assistant tabling you and stealing your id. You will be down disposals before Sec makes it to your workplace.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sat Apr 25, 2015 4:59 pm

I sometimes PDA the workers in a workplace (as warden) when someone's brought in for tresspass and say "What does the name "Griffs-The-Station" (example) mean to you?". If they can actually remember the guy's name, it's usually because he was being a shithead so I increase their sentence. B&E is annoying.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:19 pm #84021

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I sometimes PDA the workers in a workplace (as warden) when someone's brought in for tresspass and say "What does the name "Griffs-The-Station" (example) mean to you?". If they can actually remember the guy's name, it's usually because he was being a shithead so I increase their sentence. B&E is annoying.

This does bring up something I've been wondering. If I'm playing security and I catch someone who's been a real pain in the ass about breaking into a department, could I just sort of hand that person off to the guys in that department and just say "hey, have fun" without being responsible for whatever that department does to him?

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:22 pm #84022

TheNightingale · Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:26 pm

Where on that chart does 'they draw a stunprod and your lethal force fails' fit in?

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:32 pm #84025

TheNightingale wrote:Where on that chart does 'they draw a stunprod and your lethal force fails' fit in?

You can't see it because the chart is too zoomed in, but the entire thing is actually inlayed inside a giant one circle venn diagram labeled "get good"

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:46 pm #84036

Stickymayhem wrote:Also admins universally treat succumbers like shit so that's not really relevant malkevin. Unless you have a specific example of an admin actually doing this it's not a point worth addressing. PM if this happened or make an actual admin complaint.

There is some precedent here of a headmin decision ruling that succumbing is only relevant in cases of truly accidental damage. It might be a good idea to clarify the administration's new stance.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 7:31 pm #84044

Jacough wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I sometimes PDA the workers in a workplace (as warden) when someone's brought in for tresspass and say "What does the name "Griffs-The-Station" (example) mean to you?". If they can actually remember the guy's name, it's usually because he was being a shithead so I increase their sentence. B&E is annoying.
This does bring up something I've been wondering. If I'm playing security and I catch someone who's been a real pain in the ass about breaking into a department, could I just sort of hand that person off to the guys in that department and just say "hey, have fun" without being responsible for whatever that department does to him?

I once arrested someone that kept breaking into cargo.

I left them cuffed to the chair outside cargo and said to cargo "have fun"

Nothing ever happened to me about it.

Sat Apr 25, 2015 9:21 pm

to clear up something here
if you break into someones workplace antagonize them and then let yourself be beaten to crit and you then succumb and ahelp afterwords you will be banned for ban baiting.
That said it is a hell of a lot simpler just allowing them to be killed, but not something everyone would agree on.
Personally I think if you break into a department and break things/steal things/attack people you should be killed on the spot and your body tossed outside for someone else to deal with.

Riley · Post by **Riley** » Sat Apr 25, 2015 11:36 pm #84077

Does "HoP gave me access!" count as a legit reason for invading someone's workplace?

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:24 am #84089

No, HoPs are meant to clear access with that departments head

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:55 am #84098

Stickymayhem wrote:It depresses me that it doesn't ever cross anyone's mind to call security in these situations.

People do. But when you've only got seconds before you're mugged and disposalled, help is just minutes away.

callanrockslol · Sun Apr 26, 2015 12:03 pm

Stickymayhem wrote:It depresses me that it doesn't ever cross anyone's mind to call security in these situations.

> He thinks security is viable most of the time

What an amazing 6 months we are going to have

Incoming wrote:

Return of the flowcharts.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Sun Apr 26, 2015 1:00 pm #84144

Arete wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:Also admins universally treat succumbers like shit so that's not really relevant malkevin. Unless you have a specific example of an admin actually doing this it's not a point worth addressing. PM if this happened or make an actual admin complaint.
There is some precedent here of a headmin decision ruling that succumbing is only relevant in cases of truly accidental damage. It might be a good idea to clarify the administration's new stance.

To be honest, some of the people working on that case were not familiar with the purpose of putting someone in critical in situations when you are unable to stun them.

I believe that if someone succumbs, we _can_ disregard their adminhelp, but we dont have to.
Personally, I like to see how the situation plays out, and succumb forcefully cuts that short, and then I might not get to see the perpetrator's true intentions.
However this does not mean that every action taken until the moment of succumbing will be automatically forgiven.
That's like nonantag scientists that tell me they were put in perma for bombing the station, so it was "handled IC", no, it is still a ban. (usually)

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri May 01, 2015 1:37 am #85036

I see the reasoning behind "succumb invalidates your adminhelp" but it shouldn't be a hard-and-fast rule. If it is painfully obvious already they're not going to heal you at all, succumbing should be OK. I shouldn't have to be forced to (to use an extreme example) wait the 5 minutes or whatever crit is inside a locker in maint doing nothing in order for my ahelping Grayshit McGriffin to be valid.

onleavedontatme · Fri May 01, 2015 2:02 am

Stickymayhem wrote:It depresses me that it doesn't ever cross anyone's mind to call security in these situations.

It depresses me that you think people want to play a British workplace simulator instead of zany and violent spacemens

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Fri May 01, 2015 6:53 pm #85176

Kor wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:It depresses me that it doesn't ever cross anyone's mind to call security in these situations.
It depresses me that you think people want to play a British workplace simulator instead of zany and violent spacemens

If Sec aren't intended to actually stop crimes, then we can just remove the department and give everyone revolvers instead like we're in the Wild West?

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Fri May 01, 2015 7:25 pm #85178

Cheridan wrote:
Kor wrote:
Stickymayhem wrote:It depresses me that it doesn't ever cross anyone's mind to call security in these situations.
It depresses me that you think people want to play a British workplace simulator instead of zany and violent spacemens
If Sec aren't intended to actually stop crimes, then we can just remove the department and give everyone revolvers instead like we're in the Wild West?

It would probably work better to be honest.
We bitch about Sec constantly, whether there isn't a Sec team present, or whether they're being Shitcurity. Arming up departments, even if it's simply with Stun Revolvers would lead to probably less long term problems, if some more short term problems.

Alternatively; event round idea, making it wild west and arming each department.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri May 01, 2015 7:32 pm #85180

Akkryls wrote:Alternatively; event round idea, making it wild west and arming each department.

Well that gives me ideas...

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Fri May 01, 2015 7:33 pm #85181

I just copped a ban for invading genetics as an officer to clone someone after genetics refused to clone security officers or heads and got attacked (tried to monkey me), defended myself, and the ruling admin (Sticky) stated that they had the right to try to monkey me because I broke in. If someone is refusing to do their job and is intentionally being difficult, are there any rulings about this?

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Fri May 01, 2015 7:36 pm #85183

Saegrimr wrote:
Akkryls wrote:Alternatively; event round idea, making it wild west and arming each department.
Well that gives me ideas...

Sadly it's likely that it'd devolve into Nations.
However it'd be interesting just to see if each department could actually handle dealing with crimes themselves rather then having to deal with Security for the round. (Hail singuloth. All prisoners shall be fed to Singuloth. All lost children shall also be fed to Singuloth.)

EndgamerAzari · Fri May 01, 2015 9:50 pm

I know I don't play very often, but this is an issue that almost invariably comes up when I do. As the RD passing by I've seen so many people clamber into robotics and demand to be borged, even going so far as to hijack the fabricators and print their own parts. I've wanted to fucking brain those idiots, and I'm not even the one they're getting in the way of. Makes me really regret the time, shortly after I started playing, I yakety sax'd my way into virology (this was a LONG time ago) as the clown and stole a bottle of flu virus until the virologist beat me senseless (It was kind of hilarious how he was roleplaying with an enraged German accent the whole time).

rdght91 wrote:I just copped a ban for invading genetics as an officer to clone someone after genetics refused to clone security officers or heads and got attacked (tried to monkey me), defended myself, and the ruling admin (Sticky) stated that they had the right to try to monkey me because I broke in. If someone is refusing to do their job and is intentionally being difficult, are there any rulings about this?

I'm not usually one to stir the shit, but that's fucking stupid. Maybe you went overboard in offing him (which I assume you did), but if he was being intentionally obstructive and it was a literal matter of life and death I think you were completely justified in forcing entry. There's a big difference between "doing what it takes to do your job/protect that station" and "I didn't get the role I wanted at roundstart so I'm just gonna be a huge trespassing pain in the ass".

EDIT: I read your thread about it and maybe spacing was a bit overboard, but I think that also illustrates the point that a hard-and-fast rule is really damn hard to apply to these situations. Goddammit, it's like law school all over again.

tedward1337 · Post by **tedward1337** » Fri May 01, 2015 9:56 pm #85203

Come on, valid valid valid

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri May 01, 2015 10:01 pm #85204

He spaced a dude he had in cuffs as a sec officer, a bit excessive when you already have a guy completely helpless. The ban appeal is still in progress so the situation around the punishment there might change.

On that specific point, yeah if you're there doing your job and some asshat starts busting in to shove you aside by all means dunk him down disposals. There's a slight problem (as this usually happens to Cargo) when the people in that job simply don't do their job. You can't claim your cargonia territory while simultaneously not doing your job. They can fuck right off. Same with geneticists who want to sit there and poke the computer for superpowers while ignoring the bodies piling up at their door. If you don't want to bring players back into the round, you have no right to stop someone else from doing it.

EndgamerAzari · Fri May 01, 2015 10:10 pm

Saegrimr wrote:He spaced a dude he had in cuffs as a sec officer, a bit excessive when you already have a guy completely helpless. The ban appeal is still in progress so the situation around the punishment there might change.

On that specific point, yeah if you're there doing your job and some asshat starts busting in to shove you aside by all means dunk him down disposals. There's a slight problem (as this usually happens to Cargo) when the people in that job simply don't do their job. You can't claim your cargonia territory while simultaneously not doing your job. They can fuck right off. Same with geneticists who want to sit there and poke the computer for superpowers while ignoring the bodies piling up at their door. If you don't want to bring players back into the round, you have no right to stop someone else from doing it.

Agreed on all points. It just really gets under my skin when people get unreasonably impatient when told "come back later", or just flat-out "no" for stupid requests (like the time our only miner demanded to be borged and left science unable to do much the entire round--which we, of course, got blamed for), or don't wait for an answer or even ask and barge in and then act like you're in the wrong for clocking them when they get in the way of you doing your job.

Jesus Christ I think I found my hot-button issue.

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Fri May 01, 2015 10:27 pm #85208

The admin (Sticky) did say though before he banned me that ANYONE breaking into a workplace is valid for monkeying (which might as well be death, if genetics hates me so much theyre sure as shit not going to bring me back), apparently even a security officer trying to revive the captain. Is that the policy now? What is the actual rule here for future reference.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

rdght91 wrote:The admin (Sticky) did say though before he banned me that ANYONE breaking into a workplace is valid for monkeying (which might as well be death, if genetics hates me so much theyre sure as shit not going to bring me back), apparently even a security officer trying to revive the captain. Is that the policy now? What is the actual rule here for future reference.

He's a headmin, so his word is basically policy until he backtracks in a hurry.

Incomptinence · Sat May 02, 2015 2:05 am

I would say sticky is objectively wrong on that one. If they are totally and utterly neglecting to use an important (VITAL) section of workplace it isn't being a dick to break in and do it for them.

I mean you can't disrupt work someone or a group are refusing to do so it isn't being a dick.

In the aforementioned case cloning apparently unimportant enough that the captain not receiving it for no apparent in game reason right on the doorstep of genetics is okay and not a factor, yet simultaneously so important that to space a corpse or a repeat attempted monkeyer/murderer with barely any time for them to be cloned and heal up anyway and possible hazards in the way of doing so is worth a lengthy ban?

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Sat May 02, 2015 11:15 am #85289

In this one particular case, the captain had been demoted for being a jackass, but yes, the cloner was completely unused and another source said there were several bodies (I didn't notice how many) being ignored by genetics.

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Sat May 02, 2015 3:57 pm #85311

So just so it's clear now, entering a workplace where you're not wanted=valid?

Not-Dorsidarf · Sat May 02, 2015 7:48 pm

=valid for fuckery. Putting them in xenobio and acting as if they're an unknown alien species is a fun one for scientists, as is strapping them to a chair and testing a heatrifle/triggering an advEgun malfunction on them is good.

Medbay staff are all set to give you a gender + name change if you're being really persistant, security can already arrest you, cargo will blow you away with their ill-gotten ordinance, then call security, and people who are caught breaking into the engine room by an engineer mysteriously vanish.

Okay so the last one was violent, but the point stands.

None of the above apply to sec officers though, (unless they're harassing you extensively, I guess)

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Sat May 02, 2015 8:31 pm #85362

According to my recent ban, any invasion, even by security, into genetics for any reason is valid for monkeying, which is effectively a death sentence. Sticky ruled that he was right to attempt to monkey me for breaking in.

If you can't break into genetics to revive someone, than there isn't anywhere on the station that is safe. Under this new ruling, engineering can make an autism fort and murder anyone, security, heads, whoever who tried to come in and start the engine as long as they are not authorized by their ID.

Post by **Vekter** » Sun May 03, 2015 7:26 am #85456

I would have no personal issue with being able to eject anyone who breaks in to my department, violently if necessary.

Rdght, please stop bringing up your ban in every thread you post in. individual situations aren't pertinent as every case is handled on a case by case basis.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon May 04, 2015 6:59 am

Vekter wrote:I would have no personal issue with being able to eject anyone who breaks in to my department, violently if necessary.

Rdght, please stop bringing up your ban in every thread you post in. individual situations aren't pertinent as every case is handled on a case by case basis.

This is absolutely the right place to mention the ban, because it's completely relevant and needs discussion: IE: where now is the fucking line?

Erbbu · Post by **Erbbu** » Mon May 04, 2015 8:08 am #85653

Maybe a code-based solution could alleviate this problem. Give players some sort of a new grab or something to deal with shitlers breaking in so that everyone would not need to carry a stun weapon + cable cuffs to remove them.

rdght91 · Post by **rdght91** » Mon May 04, 2015 2:16 pm #85676

Vekter wrote:I would have no personal issue with being able to eject anyone who breaks in to my department, violently if necessary.

Rdght, please stop bringing up your ban in every thread you post in. individual situations aren't pertinent as every case is handled on a case by case basis.

You're kinda right, and I don't mean to whine, but Sticky did say that the guy was perfectly right to "fuck with me" in the adminhelps. If security becomes valid because they force their way in to use a vital piece of equipment when a random guy is stopping them FNR than there isn't ANY situation where it is okay to break in anywhere.