New thread since head admins keep dodging this question.
As security, what is the appropriate course of action if the brig is rendered unusable?
For example, if the brig was bombed to hell, what should you do if you catch the bomber? Someone who is committing assault? Theft? A simple break-and-enter? What happens if you have a brig but you can't bring them there because you're in space/there is no gravity? What options are available to security officers that won't get them banned?
My opinion: historically, we've allowed security to execute people in space because of how impossible it is to actually brig them. The difficulty of getting a cuffed prisoner onto the station, especially one likely still armed (but you can't strip them or you'll kill them) on to the station, is too much to ask from anyone, really. This should be extended to cases where there is no usable brig. Not saying that every crime should be an instant execution, but the the requirements to execute someone should be relaxed to properly deal with threats.
MrStonedOne wrote:So, I've been active on all of the headmin discussions on this, and I was the one who got asked to look over the ban that prompted this discussion.
This is basically the closest thing to a fair middle ground the headmins have reached so far:
If he hadn't had asked, it would have been fine.
Execution policy allows for execution without approval in certain circumstances, and this might have qualified (no idea how destroyed brig was, there is a big line between all the windows busted and the doors emagged open level of broken (where you can still get to the gulag and perma) and all of that side of the station is space), but that all goes out the window the moment you ask, and get told no.
Pax was still the hos, and nobody would have been arguing that if he had said yes, the execution shouldn't have been considered authorized because the hos also said once over radio that they were fucking off to space, and that so and so was in charge while they were gone.
It really isn't in any sort of agreement. I think a specific exception for this is needed at the very least sticky does not and HG hasn't commented
The execution policy is something different that still hasn't been resolved but it would make the interactions between HoS and Sec IC with the HoS allowed to punish his sec officer for going against him but not banning the security officer for going against him.
Steelpoint wrote:Also I must remind everyone that the HoS was offstation at the time and ceded away his authority to someone else. By all intents and purposes the HoS's word was irrelevant.
Who did he cede authority to? A Warden? Someone?
I think it's pretty obscene to ban someone for failing to follow the chain of command when there is literally no other situation on this server where people care about it, beyond some vague arguments about rights of succession to captaincy. If, as I've been led to believe, the HoS either never passed on his authority or passed it on to someone who at the time was incapacitated/not reachable by PDA/Security channel... The Officer should've been in the clear to make his own judgement calls within the obvious reasonable bounds of the server rules. At least, that's my take on it.
It's dumb to enforce chain of command technicality in bans when it literally does not matter almost universally elsewhere on the server.
I read in the posted logs that the HoS, by his own words, that he was leaving the station in EVA gear to chase/do something and that he told Security that the "red guy in the brig" was in charge (probably a red Lizard player).
E: In my opinion this should just be a IC issue. Let the HoS discipline his subordinates as he sees fit. The CEO of a massive company does not come down to tell off a Cashier for being shit.
I told the officer to beat Cooper's ass before heading into space. I was also extremely distracted, and had no idea what was going on; at that point, it should've been the officer's call. If I disapprove of the way the situation's resolved, fine. I'll punish him myself. Considering, however, that the AI was malfunctioning, the brig was on fire, and that I've had a few experiences with Cooper trying to straight-up murder people like he does in this round, I seriously don't think the officer should be punished, at the very least.
OOC: Deitus: tfw RL porn doesnt sexually excite me anymore
Basically, the guy attempted murder (monkeying is equivalent to murder, and is offered the same charges) and had a billion other crimes under his belt, including fucking mutiny.
Disregarding someone up the chain of command who offers a bizarre or nonsensical command is not banworthy iff they're valid in the first place. At most, it's a bit of a dick move. It's explainable from an OOC perspective (this guy is a chucklefuck, griffer / banbaiter AND tried to monkey me AND went out of his way to sabotage fucking genetics AND not to clone the Captain or let anyone do so) AND an IC perspective (I have nothing to do with this guy who would be permabrigged or executed in the first place -> choices are to release him or kill him -> he's a danger to the crew -> kill him, risk minimized). If the sole point of interest is that he acted against the will of the HoS, and that is the reason for his ban, and not asking wouldn't have resulted in a ban, you have inconsistent policy. Either you were obligated to contact the HoS for this particular execution to receive permission, or you are not obligated to contact the HoS. If the former, then why would he not be banned if he didn't ask? If the latter, then why does the HoS's opinion, especially without knowing the full situation and having fucked off, have weight just because the officer queried him?
Inconsistent policy is crap policy. Get 'yer shit straight, and really, the latter makes more sense. If someone committed obvious capital offenses, you shouldn't need head permission to execute someone in the field in a code red situation, where often you do not have the time or manpower to do so. If anything, that would be an IC problem resolved in IC, as the subject of this matter was completely valid, first and foremost. If he wasn't valid, then you may as well just toss this server out the airlock, given that would imply that griefers/banbaiters are obliquely given free reign and more power and leeway than the most thankless, understaffed, and most difficult job in the game that is constantly shat on by policy and player alike, but is still required for the game to function.
Amelius wrote:Basically, the guy attempted murder (monkeying is equivalent to murder, and is offered the same charges) and had a billion other crimes under his belt, including fucking mutiny.
I wanted to appear unbiased, but I did see him randomly attempt to murder everyone in the brig with a staff of animation he straight-up stole from the warden the other day, so I firmly believe him to be a shithead.
OOC: Deitus: tfw RL porn doesnt sexually excite me anymore
