So, Here's The Tea.
On round
227574 I rolled midround Regal Rat.
I decided to do a friendly "take over" of the bridge, basically just ventcrawl there, get me gunk on the ground, make some rats, say hi to the passerbys. While doing this, I managed to meet a sec officer, the captain, and an AI, to all of which I communicated my lack of intent to do harm. I decide a bit afterwards to exit the bridge and make my way to the kitchen, in which I sat in the counter waiting for the chef to come back so that I could kindly ask for some cheese. While waiting, a rogue security officer came out of nowhere and two-shot me with a laser gun, killing me instantly.
So, that sucks! And I begin thinking about it. The regal rat isn't restriction excempt, according to the table in the rules, so surely that means there's no real reason to simply ignore escalation policy, right? So I send a ticket which Dunham kindly picks up:
► Show Spoiler
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2024-04-21 09:11:37:
Ticket Opened by smallblue: Hey so, I got Regal Rat and decided to basically take over Bridge. While doing this, I talked with the AI, who asked if i were chill, and I said yes, and that I would even help if needed. Then I talked with the cap, who asked me to be chill otherwise he wouldnt think twice about sending the sec team to kill me, to which I also said yes. I also had a conversation with a sec officer (whose name I cant remember) who asked me if i was good, and I said yes. I exit out of bridge and stand waiting with my mice children in the kitchen to talk to the cook to hopefully get cheese made only for Alexander Moore to roll up and two-shot kill me.#Was Alexander in their right to do that? Isn't he supposed to follow some sort of escalation instead of rolling up to me and killing me instantly? Like, doesn't that break at least SOME of the roleplay rules? In case it wasn't obvious I'm Somewhat Miffed by what happened
2024-04-21 09:14:35:
Reply from dunham: Regal rat applies the same logic when it comes to friendly antaging. You can get killed for it sadly
2024-04-21 09:15:34:
Reply from smallblue: So stuff like "Deal with the bad guys in proportion to their crimes" and "Escalation and roleplay" just does not apply to regal rat? Why's that?
2024-04-21 09:16:48:
Reply from dunham: Well, because you're a rat.. Rats are supposed to eat stuff, mess up the halls, create miasma. Its the same logic as exterminating a rat in irl.
2024-04-21 09:19:29:
Reply from dunham: It sucks, I've been killed many of a time as a Rat king who wanted to do a different gimmick but the best way to keep coming back is to make friends in medical. They can revive simple mobs without a laz gun now, just with surgery
2024-04-21 09:21:34:
Reply from smallblue: Is- is it?? Last I checked rats IRL dont have armies they can command, rats IRL cant seem to be able to communicate in english, rats IRL cant use both of those facts to command said armies to aid you, why would the same logic used on IRL rats be used on a regal rat? Why can some of the roleplay rules be ignored simply because "oh well you wouldnt think twice about killing a rat IRL"? Isn't that line of thought a bit silly??? I assume by the way you're typing that this has some sort of precedent, where could I find it?
2024-04-21 09:24:26:
Reply from dunham: <a href="viewtopic.php?f=85&t=34957&p=70 ... ng#p704884" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">viewtopic.php?f=85&t=34957&p=70 ... 884</a><br />
<br />
Best I can give you
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Continued from next round:
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2024-04-21 09:42:31:
Ticket Opened by smallblue: Hey Dunham, I hope you're still there, I checked the link you sent me and it kind of. Says the opposite of what you've said? According to the headmin ruling Regal Rat is straight up NOT an antag, which by proxy means they arent restriction except (the point of the thread), which by proxy means there really is no reason to not follow escalation!! Like, is there something I'm missing here? I understand Higgin's post says that rats are supposed to be seen as a bad thing, but I dont think that justifies immediately killing one?
2024-04-21 09:43:36:
Reply from dunham: Did you have an army with you?
2024-04-21 09:43:55:
Reply from smallblue: Yeah, why?
2024-04-21 09:47:22:
Reply from dunham: One of the discussions I've had with the other admins is that they can kill you if you have an army of rats or if you're messing up the air alarms with your miasma. That's all I can really give you since there isn't really a concrete ruling on it. I did ask the headadmins about it recently but they're asleep. A policy thread might be a good thing to write up if you feel strongly about it, and it would be nice for me as well since I don't really have anything Concrete to rule it by other than one singular discussion I've had with other admins regarding it
2024-04-21 09:51:55:
Reply from dunham: For context, kinda similar situation: A rat king was stinking up the bathrooms and had captain's protection to live on the station. The AI told the borgs to kill it, despite the captain's orders he made with an announcement, and the king Ahelped it. I asked the admins about it and they said it was valid since they were spewing miasma into the air
2024-04-21 09:54:41:
Reply from smallblue: I've thought about possibly making a policy thread but I'm. Not Sure About What. Like, I understand other admins said that you could kill regal rats if they simply HAD an army or if they simply MADE miasma but I feel like that would go against the "deal with the bad guys in proprtion to their crimes" bit of the rp rules, simply having an army and excruding some miasma isnt nearly equivalent to something like murder and major sabotage, which DO allow for death. So it would seem the policy is already on my side in that regard, if I understand it right. Regal Rats arent excempt from restrictions, so they're not valid on sight, so that's out of the table. I dont want to just make a thread that says "Clarify that people should follow escalation policy, even on regal rats" because that's a bit silly, people SHOUL follow escalation policy, its in the rules!! So uh, Iunno
2024-04-21 09:58:30:
Reply from dunham: I am currently getting it figured out by the hivemind though, hang tight.
2024-04-21 09:58:55:
Reply from smallblue: Sure, no rush
2024-04-21 10:13:15:
Reply from dunham: Yeah, they're pretty much in agreement with killing even if they're friendly due to the fact Rat Kings can start killing other people in an instant. <br />
Quote: Friendly antagonist situations are a good comparison, they often end with the friendly antagonist killing at least their objectives before shuttle arrives and doing it fairly openly because they had been friendly up until that point<br />
of course the rat doesn't really have such an objective but there's no point letting it wander around freely and choose whose day it is going to ruin<br />
and naturally players aren't obligated to come to that conclusion ,if it's being chill people can interact with it no problem but whoever decides to do some pest control is free to do so
2024-04-21 10:16:03:
Reply from smallblue: So if I understand correctly, the sentiment is that regardless of the policy stating that the rat shouldnt be treated as an antag, because of how easily the rat could kill people, anyone is free to hunt it as they please?
2024-04-21 10:20:01:
Reply from dunham: This is what was discussed recently in the admin hivemind, with a headadmin agreeing that anyone can kill it
2024-04-21 10:21:32:
Reply from smallblue: I see, I get it. At the very least now I know what to make a policy thread about, lol. Thank you SO much for your time.
2024-04-21 10:22:31:
Reply from dunham: Welcome, sorry it happened to ya though. I've been killed in many different fashions for doing friendly antag gimmicks and it sucks each time
2024-04-21 10:23:34:
Reply from smallblue: Honestly I'm less annoyed at being killed as a friendly antag and more annoyed at how the rules don't seem to clarify that its cool lol. If I knew what I was getting into before getting into it I'd be way cooler with it
2024-04-21 10:24:49:
Reply from dunham: I hear ya. I feel like it needs to be discussed too so that I can make better judgement calls on it
2024-04-21 10:25:27:
Reply from smallblue: Let me cook :)
2024-04-21 10:25:36: Resolved by Dunham
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After having this chat with them it seems clear to me that there's a disconnect between what is written in policy and how admins actually handle The Rat:
- According to policy,
Regal Rat is not an antag, let alone a restriction exempt one. Therefore, there really is no reason to not follow escalation policy with it.
- In practice however, The Rat is too powerful for it to not be valid, with its army of mice being able to kill a person in seconds, and its miasma making any room inhospitable. So it seems admins tend to allow for it to be killed with no escalation, even if policy states they shouldn't.
So here is where a decision must be made.
If The Rat is to stay as an non-restriction-exempt non-antag, then enforce proper escalation policy with it.
If proper escalation shouldn't be followed when it comes to such a powerful boy, then make new policy that clarifies the exemption.
