Security and the armory

[TheRex9001]

This policy discussion is about the current state of security and the armoury, specifically in relation to taking stuff out of it roundstart. This was previously ruled on in viewtopic.php?f=85&t=32489&p=657300&hil ... ry#p657300 but after a recent discussion I believe its worth taking this subject up again.

Where does the line go for this? Can I take non-lethals like dragnets? Can I take stuff out of the contraband locker roundstart? Can I do it every round? Can I break in as a security officer to do it?

[TheRex9001]

I'll also note here, this ruling needs a refresh in general. Rule 12 isnt a thing anymore and a lot of things about security has changed in 2 years.

[MooCow12]

I would appreciate dragnets being able to be taken out round start just so they get nerfed due to sec using them 24/7


They are not an inherently lethal weapon they are just really good at what they do (instastamcrit shotgun) and can be upgraded to lethal.

[TheLoLSwat]

from a captains POV I open armory for any and all security personnel that feel like they need extra weaponry. Its not too big of a deal going from a disabler to an egun and the visual of incompetent secoffs running around with riot armor and 2 shotguns is entertaining

[JusticeGoat]

I think the warden or captain should be allowed to hand out gear from the armory that is appropriate for the situation round start. they are managing the armory and shouldn't have many restrictions on handing out gear besides maybe holding off on laser guns or such until its needed, but the non lethals or weapons with those options shouldn't be restricted.

[Fatal]

Given security already has access to their own stuff (which is unrestricted to them) and the armory is restricted, I think taking stuff from the armory without good cause, should be forbidden (such as rushing it roundstart repeatedly)

However, if there's good cause to have it, such as, being a solo security officer with 50 crew to deal with, or a particularly high threat alert, or proof of a certain threat being present, that's what the armory is for

Given security are expected to use non-lethal weaponry anyway there should be a reason to carry a lethal weapon, more than "just in case"

[Jacquerel]

Given security are expected to use non-lethal weaponry anyway there should be a reason to carry a lethal weapon, more than "just in case"

it's worth noting that there are nonlethal items in the armoury (dragnets at the very least)

[Vekter]

Given security are expected to use non-lethal weaponry anyway there should be a reason to carry a lethal weapon, more than "just in case"

I would say it depends pretty heavily on the situation. At round start? Not really, since it's supposed to just be a regular day on the station. Like half an hour in after finding out there's fuckery afoot? Sounds more reasonable.

[britgrenadier1]

Sometimes I just want to run a shotgun over a disabler for funzies. Being prohibited from doing that would be lame so we should allow sec to take less than lethal weapons out of the armory roundstart.

[Vekter]

Sometimes I just want to run a shotgun over a disabler for funzies. Being prohibited from doing that would be lame so we should allow sec to take less than lethal weapons out of the armory roundstart.

I think I would be okay with this, but I'm not sure about roundstart. I worry that it's going to lead to situations where someone sees sec pull out a shotgun and assumes they're going to lethal them.

[britgrenadier1]

Sometimes I just want to run a shotgun over a disabler for funzies. Being prohibited from doing that would be lame so we should allow sec to take less than lethal weapons out of the armory roundstart.

I think I would be okay with this, but I'm not sure about roundstart. I worry that it's going to lead to situations where someone sees sec pull out a shotgun and assumes they're going to lethal them.

I don’t think anyone is gonna expect me to lethal them with a shotgun, we don’t have buckshot anymore and scrapshot doesn’t get made much. I wouldn’t want sec to essentially escalation bait with it though since it does do SOME damage. It just requires good faith play on both sides and I’m hoping that that isn’t too much to ask for since I still want to run shotguns.

[GamerAndYeahMick]

I would rather not have blanket policy about this because the restriction will make people not do things in general that could lead to good outcomes which are fun (with the potential for bad ones as well), I do think we have sufficient abilities within the scopes of the rules to suggest to people not to make decisions like this consistently or enough for everyone to notice they are doing it consistently especially when their intention is most likely more focused on the win/lose mentality or treating the game less like a roleplaying sandbox and more like a shooter, I would also suggest that we somehow enable and inform people in command positions that they can and should demote people who are doing things like stealing from the locker without permission and enforce that they have greater power over the management of their department within in-character means, this may be in the form of flavour text or a page on the wiki or some sort of information panel about what is expected from them and what is considered good play and within the scope of their authority, additionally I take issue with the fact that ever changing rulings can be quite hard to follow and can get confusing or bloated, and that as a rule of thumb we should avoid them when we can use a reasonable application of rules in place on a case by case basis, that said I do appreciate the thread being created and the discussion it is creating and understand the point of view of others and why they may feel the need for the policy.

[TheRex9001]

We already have a blanket policy on this, and as mentioned security has changed a lot in 2 years when the old one was made. Refreshing or removing the old ruling is kind of the intent of this policy thread.

[BrianBackslide]

Does the armory distinction even matter when sec can get their hands on most of the armory's lethal and nonlethal compliment without setting foot therein through free departmental orders?

[Jacquerel]

Personally I think that immediately, without any in-round reasoning, taking the guns in the "contraband locker" which are there to imply that time didn't begin the second you hit start and are also explicitly labelled "contraband" and "something you shouldn't be carrying" is the mark of the stinkiest fail RP. IDK what ruling should be made about that, except that maybe if it really is just a loot locker we should just take the guns out of it.
Or at least give them a firing pin that plays a farting noise every time you use it.
I don't think people want us to do that though.

That said I also think this about the Captain's Laser; unfortunately players (and occasionally admins) consistently prove that it's impossible to give people nice things for flavour sometimes.

[Higgin]

make the contraband locker into a secure boobytrapped crate with a puzzle. there are already locked evidence lockers for captured shit that get used just as often.

security should be able to use what they're given and eat the consequences of misuse or overuse - I tend with san's opinion in the original ruling. we should be intervening when that misuse itself constitutes a rulebreak like lethalling people FNR or being a dick with a full loadout of gamer gear, but otherwise, this feels as if to say that doctors shouldn't be making roundstart chems or robotics shouldn't be making mechs if it pleases them -

they do fighting. they're the fighting job. let them try to get the shit they want to fight with and wardens/HoSses/whoever keep them wrangled away from becoming loot pinatas if it suits them.

...

We have thus agreed that security should - at a minimum - wait until the announcement of the station's blue alert status or a report / sighting of an active antagonist to start moving to open the armoury or to distribute high value equipment amongst security team members.

...

refreshing this would be nice because it feels like we often totally neglect the security advisory or blue alert as an OOC thing. they functionally are, but I think letting people treat them as an IC development is much more harmonious and an easy ask.

"gimme riot gear + drag"
"it's a blue star, chill for a bit"
"grrr ok"

"gimme riot gear + drag"
"MIDNIGHT SUN WHY ARE YOU NOT FORTIFYING THE SHIT IS ALREADY ON THE FLOOR"
"GAHHHH"

much better than people wondering if the OOC threshold has been crossed imo - otherwise, if it's an issue of roundstart gear being roundstart dominant, maybe remove some of it and force security to order more of it in or randomize what shows up with spawners.

[JupiterJaeden]

Gonna comment on this from a mostly MRP perspective as I main MRP sec.

I definitely agree with higgin that the threat advisory should be the guide for how freely armory gear is distributed near roundstart, which is normally how I deal with it when I play HOS. Although even on lower threats I usually won't deny a secoff asking for 1-2 pieces of equipment, and I often take a dragnet myself. Regardless of the advisory though, I think there's really no issue with security generally being allowed to utilize a little armory gear roundstart. Anyone who is repeatedly distributing the whole armory roundstart could be dealt with under RPR 10/the general powergaming rules.

The reason for this is that I think it's just more fun as security to have access to more variety in your roundstart loadout, and I don't think a couple pieces of armory equipment here and there seriously disrupts the balance of the game. There is definitely some strong equipment in there but none of it is all that much stronger than the stun baton every secoff gets roundstart anyways. As for things like lethals which are categorically different than stun weapons- anyone who abuses this can be dealt with by other rules already anyways.

I also think if there is no one available to authorize access to it, there is nothing wrong with a secoff breaking into the armory, particularly on lowpop. They shouldn't be disallowed from using the equipment provided to them in their department just because no one could give them access.

The contraband locker is a whole different beast, I don't think there's any reason to be looting that roundstart, at least on MRP. MRP security should generally only be using contraband weapons during a serious emergency. Maybe something like a midnight sun advisory might justify it, but even then it doesn't really hurt to just wait 10 minutes for a threat that warrants it to pop up.

Side note: barriers not being allowed roundstart from that old ruling is outdated and dumb, and barely enforced anymore anyways. I actually think wardens should have more freedom to fortify the brig if they want to, it barely ever happens anyways and it could lead to some creative designs. So long as you aren't like completely making the armory inaccessible roundstart or whatever, let wardens dick around with the brig a bit.

[britgrenadier1]

True, we should let people do whatever with barriers. I see wardens use them to make the brig entrance into a 1x2 all the time. It’s fine imo, warden is there to guard the brig and him fortifying should be like the CE setting up the SM.