Theft as an IC issue, Why is this ok?

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon May 18, 2015 5:28 am #88877

Recently I've been hearing about a lot of insane levels of theft being labeled as an IC Incident, Before starting my argument I'd like to cite specifics.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3603 Wherein a non-antag assistant raided and fully looted the armory, then dunked me to hell and back, stripped me down to nothing, and got away with it as an IC incident.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3642 This one, Thatslyfox (Jim Otis station engineer) steals the CEs hardsuit while he's trying to set shit up, wanders off, and then gives it to a mime. IC incident, Despite him being his direct head.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 100#p88832 Where I'm told that basically, if I decide to loot the clown as a security officer for not even one fucking reason while he's arrested, that's A-ok.

What If I were to bust into surgery as a non antag and steal all the tools I can get my greedy douchey little hotdog fingers on? then take the defib for kicks? Under current policy, I'm just a dick, but not a bannable one. By allowing truly disgusting acts of looting we're protecting one type of player, shitheads, I'm not saying ban every fucker who rushes into EVA for a space suit, but taking away everything about someones job that makes that job special, or even possible, is a clear rule 1 violation and should be treated as such.

After a certain point, banditry crosses the line, and that's clearly after you've wrecked a person so far that he cannon meaningfully re-enter the round in the role he started in.

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon May 18, 2015 5:34 am #88885

No. Security exists for a reason and its not to hunt antags 24/7.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon May 18, 2015 5:36 am #88888

Nice Buzz words, I want you to crack down on blatant shitlery, I'm a valid hunter.

Admins exist for a reason, and it's not button mashing and shitty events.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon May 18, 2015 6:14 am #88897

Falamazeer wrote:Nice Buzz words, I want you to crack down on blatant shitlery, I'm a valid hunter.

Admins exist for a reason, and it's not button mashing and shitty events.

'Security' and 'hunt antags' are buzzwords now, heard it here first.

Theft as an IC issue is something that sort of has to be looked at on a case-by-case basis - There are some times, some items, and some situations in which yes, it is absolutely an IC issue. Conversely, I can think of far more where it becomes an OOC issue. This doesn't seem like policy discussion and more like you disliking admin verdicts on a couple situations.

In the interest of clarity, here's are some examples of what I, as a non-administrator think are OOC/IC issue thefts:
- Someone shoves an Officer and steals his baton during downtime? IC
- Someone steals an Officer's equipment while he is chasing a dangerous antagonist/running around during nuke/rev/cult? OOC
- Someone steals the Spare ID with no Captain/HoP/Engineers and uses it to maintain the station? IC (And frankly not much of an issue)
- Someone steals the Spare ID with no Captain/HoP/Engineers and dicks off/refuses to use it/hordes it? OOC

It's really just a sliding scale of how much of a dick you are being to other people/how much you are fucking them over. Stealing job-crucial equipment is usually a pretty big factor in crossing that line.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon May 18, 2015 6:17 am #88899

Non antags looting the armory is extremely shitty, and if not OOC, is still a capital offence.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Mon May 18, 2015 6:21 am #88904

lumipharon wrote:Non antags looting the armory is extremely shitty, and if not OOC, is still a capital offence.

Space Law Section 1.3.4: wrote: Note: Unauthorised personnel in the armory are considered by default to be Armed and Dangerous, maximum force is permitted to subdue such targets.

OOCly, I don't think I've ever seen an admin even bat an eyelash at people getting wasted for trespassing in the Armory. Nonantags in the Armory should never be accepted unless it's for a VERY VERY GOOD REASON WHEREIN SECURITY CANNOT HANDLE IT

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon May 18, 2015 6:26 am #88907

Falamazeer wrote:Recently I've been hearing about a lot of insane levels of theft being labeled as an IC Incident, Before starting my argument I'd like to cite specifics.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3603 Wherein a non-antag assistant raided and fully looted the armory, then dunked me to hell and back, stripped me down to nothing, and got away with it as an IC incident.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3642 This one, Thatslyfox (Jim Otis station engineer) steals the CEs hardsuit while he's trying to set shit up, wanders off, and then gives it to a mime. IC incident, Despite him being his direct head.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 100#p88832 Where I'm told that basically, if I decide to loot the clown as a security officer for not even one fucking reason while he's arrested, that's A-ok.

What If I were to bust into surgery as a non antag and steal all the tools I can get my greedy douchey little hotdog fingers on? then take the defib for kicks? Under current policy, I'm just a dick, but not a bannable one. By allowing truly disgusting acts of looting we're protecting one type of player, shitheads, I'm not saying ban every fucker who rushes into EVA for a space suit, but taking away everything about someones job that makes that job special, or even possible, is a clear rule 1 violation and should be treated as such.

After a certain point, banditry crosses the line, and that's clearly after you've wrecked a person so far that he cannon meaningfully re-enter the round in the role he started in.

Are we hu gbox Baystation now? This is why security exists, and why there are crimes beside 'permabrig, traitor'. IC issues are IC. If someone wants to loot all the tools in surgery, that's OK if they quietly accept / flee from a lethal asswhooping from medbay personnel, and/or a brigging. If they're doing that every round, that's borderline not OK, since it's just dickery.

> Wherein a non-antag assistant raided and fully looted the armory, then dunked me to hell and back, stripped me down to nothing, and got away with it as an IC incident.

Borderline case. The subject toed the line and would have been banned if anyone was critted during the pursuit. Shittery, as the people in the thread acquiesce, but not bad enough for a ban.

> This one, Thatslyfox (Jim Otis station engineer) steals the CEs hardsuit while he's trying to set shit up, wanders off, and then gives it to a mime. IC incident, Despite him being his direct head.

Who the fuck cares who's the direct head of who? That's like, a terribly minor crime of theft to be crying 'ban he' for. No harm was done, only an item was taken that had 8 direct, accessible replacements available for the CE. Admissable for a CE/engineering dunking, sure, but that's definitely IC. You can't regulate player action to that extent, that would be lunacy. Clown slips an unrobust officer being an idiot and running with a gun out? Ban he! HoP being a dick, so you skin his dog and serve him a burger of Ian's flesh? Ban he! Clown stealing the Mime's mask, or vice versa to make into a delicious burger of clown/mime tears? Ban he!

Seriously, this server is not for that level of hu gboxing.

> Where I'm told that basically, if I decide to loot the clown as a security officer for not even one fucking reason while he's arrested, that's A-ok.

Sounds fine to me. Clowns are invariably up to no good - they're the crew's punching bag, and you must honk while doing so. Sounds like you're new here, and aren't used to /tg/station culture. We're in between Goon and Bay. What you're suggesting is far too far in the latter direction to ever be applied here. Go elsewhere if you dislike it.

Mon May 18, 2015 8:26 am

We used to just let people kill you for looting the armory and not let you fight back, either way looting it is not really allowed for no reason.

Other than that stealing for the most part is regarded as an IC issue unless it is excessive or just getting people killed and fucked over badly for no reason. It really all comes under don't be a dick.

Redblaze3000 · Mon May 18, 2015 11:14 pm

I've seen an increase too. The other day a powergaming lizard jacked the cap hardsuit and the gun for 'protection' as non-antag and then tided the rest of the day. This kind of theft is getting really shitastic.

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Mon May 18, 2015 11:19 pm #89216

Theft wouldn't be an issue if we could go back to killing people that steal from us.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Mon May 18, 2015 11:38 pm #89219

Yeah, it's like 'fringe cases' keep happening round after round, Hence the thread.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue May 19, 2015 5:37 am #89276

Redblaze3000 wrote:I've seen an increase too. The other day a powergaming lizard jacked the cap hardsuit and the gun for 'protection' as non-antag and then tided the rest of the day. This kind of theft is getting really shitastic.

Fairly sure you can straight out murder someone who looted the Captain's crap, especially as the Captain. That's a permabriggable crime in and of itself (according to space law it's a 'capital crime'), so I don't think anyone is gonna blink twice if they get lasered to death in the Captain's office/execution room for stealing the gun alone. That's the risk they assume - they're 100% valid for stealing it. Same with BPs, the RCD, the hand teleporter, ID cards, the hypo, mechs, and so on.

Notes exist to deal with people who repetitively tide. Just adminhelp it, nothing will occur, but they may or may not get a note for it. Just don't adminhelp for minor crap (he stole my banana/honker/etc!), that's just being a complete baby. Adminhelp for things like stealing the armory in a non-code red / security is kill situation to 'secure it', or crew stealing known antags en route to the brig.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue May 19, 2015 6:01 am #89281

If someone's looting the Captains office just toss them in perma or out an airlock.

hanshansenhansson · Tue May 19, 2015 1:01 pm

I feel non-antags should not be allowed to steal unique items that can not be replaced. Especially that case with the CE suit and boots? There was no provocation by the CE at all, according to the reports of both sides. The boots are antag-targets, and some random guy goes and throws them into the bar / pockets them 4nr, fucking over the CE and possibly a traitor. How is that not a Rule #1 violation? Oh right, it was not a random guy, but an admin At least put a note on the guy, so he gets a ban next time he does it.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue May 19, 2015 1:19 pm #89326

You can't expect IC issues to be dealt IC when this server has impotent Security.

At the very least let the theft victims kill the thieves.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Tue May 19, 2015 2:20 pm #89328

Oh no, someone stole by baton
better kill them
Oh no, the other atmos tech stole the hardsuit and I wanted it
better kill them (and yes, this happens and I've seen it and had to deal with it)
Oh no, someone stole the scalpel from surgery
better kill them
Wah, the clown stole my shoes after slipping me
better kill them

I will never understand the obsession with people wanting to just roast someone who even minor inconveniences them. Killing is not the answer to everything and it certainly is not the response for thievery. Of course, the item stolen does has some effect on the action taken, but jesus come on people

TheNightingale · Tue May 19, 2015 2:24 pm

It's not the theft itself so much as the intentions behind it. I don't actually mind losing my baton as an officer, but if an assistant disarms me and takes it just because they can, that shows a lot about their motive, and therefore the punishment they seek.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Tue May 19, 2015 2:27 pm #89332

I can understand that an assistant with a baton is dangerous and can be scary, but there is a reason executions need captian approvable. Not everyone agrees with that policy either though.

Also, you are also assuming intention. Noted, stealing weapons doesn't exactly scream good sumaritan but still an assumption.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue May 19, 2015 3:16 pm #89336

NikNakFlak wrote:Oh no, someone stole by baton
better kill them
Oh no, the other atmos tech stole the hardsuit and I wanted it
better kill them (and yes, this happens and I've seen it and had to deal with it)
Oh no, someone stole the scalpel from surgery
better kill them
Wah, the clown stole my shoes after slipping me
better kill them

I will never understand the obsession with people wanting to just roast someone who even minor inconveniences them. Killing is not the answer to everything and it certainly is not the response for thievery. Of course, the item stolen does has some effect on the action taken, but jesus come on people

Because it is literally the only thing that stops shitters, let alone gets their attention.

Loonikus · Post by **Loonikus** » Tue May 19, 2015 3:28 pm #89339

Absolutely not true. On servers that allow it, I will cut off one of their hands. That gets the point across rather well.

Here, I'd say the brig really is a decent but underused alternative. Remember, space law is just a suggestion, if someone is being a shitter lock them up for 7-10 minutes. If you want to be extra sure, stick em in the gulag, which is the ultimate shitter strainer.

Not-Dorsidarf · Tue May 19, 2015 3:37 pm

The gulag is the permabrig without any of the comforts, really.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Tue May 19, 2015 4:39 pm #89351

It's not the permabrig if people used it right. On rare cases, a security officer has sent me off to the gulag with a headset after being caught as a traitor. I minned soo much he let me go, even though the gulag sentence was for "life".

People have plenty of alternatives to death but choose not to use then

EndgamerAzari · Tue May 19, 2015 5:24 pm

NikNakFlak wrote:People have plenty of alternatives to death but choose not to use then

I think this is because none of these are really deterrents from a (sociopathic) player's perspective; if you slap the shit out of the guy who keeps climbing into the kitchen and stealing food/breaking the microwaves, it really doesn't stop him (again, from a perspective of "my control of my character is still unimpeded") from being able to do those things unless you put him down for the final count (and hence removing his control). I'm not saying that validing every fuckless shitheel is a good policy, but from the perspective of these dicklicks there aren't any real consequences to their actions up until they flatline--being brigged is an exception, since being locked up limits their options, but that relies on security getting to him in time and he's probably going to go right back to antagonizing you after he gets out.

It hurts to type this, but I'm afraid death is the only consequence that pathological shitlers actually view as a consequence.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue May 19, 2015 5:38 pm #89358

NikNakFlak wrote:Oh no, someone stole by baton
better kill them
Oh no, the other atmos tech stole the hardsuit and I wanted it
better kill them (and yes, this happens and I've seen it and had to deal with it)
Oh no, someone stole the scalpel from surgery
better kill them
Wah, the clown stole my shoes after slipping me
better kill them

I will never understand the obsession with people wanting to just roast someone who even minor inconveniences them. Killing is not the answer to everything and it certainly is not the response for thievery. Of course, the item stolen does has some effect on the action taken, but jesus come on people

Then grow some balls and ban them. Repeated grief should not go unpunished.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Tue May 19, 2015 6:26 pm #89359

HE BROKE INTO ROBOTICS
I BROKE INTO HIS SKULL

if someone steals something i just table them and choke them to death

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue May 19, 2015 6:37 pm #89361

And everyone who isn't as robust tries their best and winds up MORE fucked.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Tue May 19, 2015 6:47 pm #89363

Scott wrote:
NikNakFlak wrote:Oh no, someone stole by baton
better kill them
Oh no, the other atmos tech stole the hardsuit and I wanted it
better kill them (and yes, this happens and I've seen it and had to deal with it)
Oh no, someone stole the scalpel from surgery
better kill them
Wah, the clown stole my shoes after slipping me
better kill them

I will never understand the obsession with people wanting to just roast someone who even minor inconveniences them. Killing is not the answer to everything and it certainly is not the response for thievery. Of course, the item stolen does has some effect on the action taken, but jesus come on people
Then grow some balls and ban them. Repeated grief should not go unpunished.

But its not really "grief" so to speak. Each situation is different and each person is different. Grief is more of a buzzword but its more or less doing dick things for no reason. In thieving cases, there is a reason. The only question is, where is the line and how far can you go in retaliation.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue May 19, 2015 7:16 pm #89366

Yes it is. Random fucks just walking up to you, disarming you and then bolting with your stuff is grief. It's acceptable for people to space the janitor's cart for absolutely no fucking reason.

Ahelping for this will result in nothing and the mall guards will be too busy to care about random thievery, but only when you kill the guy is when admins decide the line has been crossed.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Tue May 19, 2015 7:24 pm #89367

They have a reason and sometimes we do bwoink people. The counter agrument is that bwoinking minor inconvenience in the game will make the game boring and too admin involved. Again why I say, each situation is different and it depends on the circumstance of the theft. Security not responding is also a player fault. Admins are not going to adminpm sec players and say "hey go help this guy". There are any number of reasons an officer may not help and some reasons are good while others may be shit. You can handle your own problems, and killing may include this. You are also right that admins draw the line. If you take someone out of the round, you should be able to justify it. Killing is not always the answer. It can be, but also not. Again with the subjectiveness of all situations.

Edit: jesus my phone grammar why

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue May 19, 2015 8:11 pm #89381

Bluespace wrote:HE BROKE INTO ROBOTICS
I BROKE INTO HIS SKULL

if someone steals something i just table them and choke them to death

Isn't this going to end up with being admin bwoinked and banned though?
Last time I put someone into crit for actively trying to break into the PA as a librarian of all jobs, I got bwoinked and warned because apparently I should've stunned them and made cable cuffs and taken them to the brig or something rather than my preferred method of crit, cuff, cryo.

Void Slayer · Post by **Void Slayer** » Tue May 19, 2015 8:27 pm #89384

Akkryls wrote:
Bluespace wrote:HE BROKE INTO ROBOTICS
I BROKE INTO HIS SKULL

if someone steals something i just table them and choke them to death
Isn't this going to end up with being admin bwoinked and banned though?
Last time I put someone into crit for actively trying to break into the PA as a librarian of all jobs, I got bwoinked and warned because apparently I should've stunned them and made cable cuffs and taken them to the brig or something rather than my preferred method of crit, cuff, cryo.

This is just terrible, if you break into any area with multiple airlocks, security shutters and r-walls you should expect to get wrecked. When you try and steal from an unarmed, non combatant in a highly secure area you should expect them to freak the fuck out.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Tue May 19, 2015 8:28 pm #89386

Akkryls wrote:
Bluespace wrote:HE BROKE INTO ROBOTICS
I BROKE INTO HIS SKULL

if someone steals something i just table them and choke them to death
Isn't this going to end up with being admin bwoinked and banned though?
Last time I put someone into crit for actively trying to break into the PA as a librarian of all jobs, I got bwoinked and warned because apparently I should've stunned them and made cable cuffs and taken them to the brig or something rather than my preferred method of crit, cuff, cryo.

Hugbo x admins.
If someone breaks into your workplace, assuming your workplace is at least a little restricted. (no chaplain you cannot murder the captain for going in your office), then you have the right to defend your workplace.
This is very notable in robotics, where there's lots of materials behind a window.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue May 19, 2015 8:42 pm #89387

Bluespace wrote:
Akkryls wrote:
Bluespace wrote:HE BROKE INTO ROBOTICS
I BROKE INTO HIS SKULL

if someone steals something i just table them and choke them to death
Isn't this going to end up with being admin bwoinked and banned though?
Last time I put someone into crit for actively trying to break into the PA as a librarian of all jobs, I got bwoinked and warned because apparently I should've stunned them and made cable cuffs and taken them to the brig or something rather than my preferred method of crit, cuff, cryo.
kickin' rad place to be admins.
If someone breaks into your workplace, assuming your workplace is at least a little restricted. (no chaplain you cannot murder the captain for going in your office), then you have the right to defend your workplace.
This is very notable in robotics, where there's lots of materials behind a window.

Serious question, can I quote this if it comes up again?
Now days I just avoid attacking people unless they actively attack me first, simply because I'd rather not worry about being bwoinked over stuff; this unfortunately gets me permanently removed from the round more often though.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue May 19, 2015 8:54 pm #89390

The "wreck them yourself" idea is flawed, as it risks either getting banned yourself, Or getting your ass killed and then told it's IC because you fought back.
These sorts of catch-22s protect shitheads at the expense of the good honest folk of the station. (surely there's one out there)

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:18 pm #89396

The workplace dunking rule has been around for a while.

If some cunt storms your workplace and steals your shit fuck them up.

Security and antaghunters are held to high standards of behaviour because they are the instigators. If you're defending yourself and your property you can get away with critting people in self defence and sorting it out afterwards. I hesitate to say kill because there are times this is acceptable but anything I say is stretched to breaking point.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:23 pm #89397

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:The gulag is the permabrig without any of the comforts, really.

I'm one of the few security officers who uses the gulag, mostly for shitters who are juuuuust shy of a full permabrig sentence (but in practice will dick around and do nothing, resulting in the same effect). Problem is, it's a pain in the ass to get prisoners to, and especially to get back again without the prisoner trying to tailgate/assault/generally make your life hell.)

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:26 pm #89399

bandit wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:The gulag is the permabrig without any of the comforts, really.
I'm one of the few security officers who uses the gulag, mostly for shitters who are juuuuust shy of a full permabrig sentence (but in practice will dick around and do nothing, resulting in the same effect). Problem is, it's a pain in the ass to get prisoners to, and especially to get back again without the prisoner trying to tailgate/assault/generally make your life hell.)

I suppose the bonus of successfully getting someone to the gulag is that 90% of people sent there go braindead.
I need to start using the gulag more, but it seems the rounds that I DO play security always end up with either the brig being blown up or trashed in some manner.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:29 pm #89403

Again, I'm not saying it's nonexistent, I'm saying it's flawed, Case and point
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3471

Random roundstart engineers disarms me and steals my shit, I try to handle it IC with violence, he murders me stone cold dead, and I spend the rest of my round retarded because CMO doesn't know how to fix me after cloneing. Ahelp, nothing because I was the first to use the harm intent.

It boils down to might makes right, you should not be allowed to rob someone, and then self-defense them to death when they retaliate or try to get their shit back.
This, with the original three examples are cases wherin these rules are put in place and enforced in a way where a shitlord can fuck with people as much as he wants and get away with it.

A rule is only as good as it protects the fun of the players, I don't want hu0gbo0x or anything, We shouldn't be policed to the point where every crime is zipped up nice an clean by our admin team, but dicklords who happen to be more robust shouldn't be allowed to behave this way.

TheNightingale · Tue May 19, 2015 9:48 pm

How about this?:

- Stealing things is an IC issue.
- If it's something important in general (e.g. the Armory), or otherwise useful to the victim (an MD's surgical equipment, for example) and the thief stole it for no good raisin (a good raisin being 'the singularity is loose and I need a hardsuit', but not 'I dislike the HoS so I'm going to raid the Armory'), the victim is allowed to enact justice on the thief until the object is returned.
--Caveat: If the thief dies, they should be cloned.
- The thief, if they aren't an antag, isn't allowed to fight the victim in any way whilst the victim tries to reclaim the stolen things.

Steal an officer's taser because they had it out in the hallways? Sure. Now hope they don't come and harmbaton you to get it back, because you can't fight back unless you're an antag... in which case you're clear to steal it in the first place, so no worries.

Various thefts:

Urist McGreytide, non-antag, steals the Armory because he was brigged for six minutes instead of five. If Security makes any effort at all to get the guns back, Urist can't stun them in retaliation. If he does, bwoink.
Tray Tar, antag, steals the Captain's laser, because she was in the 'hood and thought it looked cool. This is fine, because Tray's an antagonist.
Flees-From-Singularity, non-antag, steals a spacesuit from EVA because the singularity is loose. This is also fine, because it's an emergency.
Grey McUristide, Urist's brother (and also a non-antag), steals the Captain's spare ID at roundstart, because he wanted all-access to help his 'tiding. If he fights anyone who tries to take it back, bwoink.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:55 pm #89409

Falamazeer wrote:Again, I'm not saying it's nonexistent, I'm saying it's flawed, Case and point
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3471

Random roundstart engineers disarms me and steals my shit, I try to handle it IC with violence, he murders me stone cold dead, and I spend the rest of my round retarded because CMO doesn't know how to fix me after cloneing. Ahelp, nothing because I was the first to use the harm intent.

It boils down to might makes right, you should not be allowed to rob someone, and then self-defense them to death when they retaliate or try to get their shit back.
This, with the original three examples are cases wherin these rules are put in place and enforced in a way where a shitlord can fuck with people as much as he wants and get away with it.

A rule is only as good as it protects the fun of the players, I don't want hu0gbo0x or anything, We shouldn't be policed to the point where every crime is zipped up nice an clean by our admin team, but dicklords who happen to be more robust shouldn't be allowed to behave this way.

But that's wrong. Literally in your op it says tsaricide warned him. So action was taken.

If you're one of those fucks that demands everyone who crosses you gets a ban no warning no second chance no matter what then you're worse than the guy who killed you.

Maybe the dude was reasonable, or apologetic, or new, or had a clean record or the situation warranted less than a ban.

Also I fundamentally disagree. I think being better at the game does and should give you the right to just be better and win more in conflicts like this. Not doing this is literally hugboxxing shit players who should be aspiring to get good.

@nightingale
We don't need concrete rules for every interaction but your set is a fairly reasonable guideline anyway.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:56 pm #89410

I'd be a lot happier with just using the vague rulings we already have, zany dicking around has it's place I guess.
I just feel disgusting abuse of that right to be a bit of a bandit prick should fall under rule 1 clauses, and result in banned-itude.
Doubly so if you wreck your victim further in response to their retaliation against you for being an assclown.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Tue May 19, 2015 9:59 pm #89412

Fuckin mso filterin muh h u g b o x

Again falazameer, he got his punishment. A note is not nothing we just tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise like any half decent legal system. Most people get a chance or so for stuff like this.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Tue May 19, 2015 10:14 pm #89415

Stickymayhem wrote:Fuckin mso filterin muh h u g b o x

Again falazameer, he got his punishment. A note is not nothing we just tend to give people the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise like any half decent legal system. Most people get a chance or so for stuff like this.

My understanding of the situation was that he was warned to stop it, not noted.

Stickymayhem wrote:
If you're one of those fucks that demands everyone who crosses you gets a ban no warning no second chance no matter what then you're worse than the guy who killed you.

Uhhh no, maybe re-read the thread in question? I feel like we're focusing too much on the engineer here...?
I was using this to qualify my point that the 'dunk em and let god sort em out' thing doesn't work out all that well in my experience, As after you've done your best to stop someone, there is no recourse for next step when dunking has failed you, due to them being a higher being within the server. Descended from on high from amongst the ranks of such robust splender as SAC, or Burer, Or whoever is the flavor of the server today.

Just because you're capable of taking every gun on the station, on person or in hand or not, doesn't mean you should be allowed to.

Edit: I think I found the breakdown in communication, warned, not noted.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Tue May 19, 2015 11:14 pm #89423

My proposal for a policy is as follows:

Stealing is normally an IC issue.
If someone steals something from you, you are allowed to respond accordingly. Please note that calling for security is a good idea first as it is their job to deal with criminals but sometimes you are ignored or they do not respond. Some actions may be over the line depending on what was stolen and the situation regarding the theft, whatever IC justice you deal out, be prepared to back it up with reasons for doing so.

If you are killed trying to take justice on the thief, that is on you as you decided to keep the matter IC and therefore it remains IC even if you die. Do not come crying to admins if you decide to kill a guy and fail. Understand what you are getting into.

Stealing sometimes becomes an issue which requires admin intervention. People repeatably stealing items over the course of many rounds for shitty reasons will probably be warned or banned. Taking other players items in the game for your personal gain is considered being a dick and at some point, you may be banned at an administrators discretion.

I feel this is a decent compromise between IC and OOC intervention. Theft is still an IC issue, but also has a point where it is not.
Please post your feedback as it is just a random draft.

TheNightingale · Tue May 19, 2015 11:19 pm

Why does an OOC matter become IC only once the victim tries (and possibly fails) to take justice on the thief? It could quite easily be both; like how someone who floods plasma as a non-antag is they're both lynched and banned.

Them fighting you back for something they initiated is, though suitable escalation, quite possibly going to end in the victim dead. Crying to the admins is the only thing you can do, then, since your IC justice failed in a possibly IC-and-OOC matter.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Tue May 19, 2015 11:42 pm #89431

It's not really fair to give out double punishment. If you choose to be a big boy and handle it yourself, why should admins get involved if it turns out you can't handle the situation when you chose to.

In the case of someone flooding plasma, that is hardly a comparison. One is stealing, the other is ruining the entire station as a non-antag, and most often than not, they get banned before they get lynched or if at all.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Wed May 20, 2015 12:14 am #89440

NikNakFlak wrote:It's not really fair to give out double punishment. If you choose to be a big boy and handle it yourself, why should admins get involved if it turns out you can't handle the situation when you chose to.

In the case of someone flooding plasma, that is hardly a comparison. One is stealing, the other is ruining the entire station as a non-antag, and most often than not, they get banned before they get lynched or if at all.

Isn't the instant reaction to most people having had something stolen is to try to get it back?
Assistant McGreyshit pushes you over and takes your hardsuit. He runs off. You attempt to get it back, but since he's wearing it, the only real way to stop him getting into space is to smash his head in.

So this makes you valid for being murdered in return?

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Wed May 20, 2015 12:25 am #89442

NikNakFlak wrote:It's not really fair to give out double punishment. If you choose to be a big boy and handle it yourself, why should admins get involved if it turns out you can't handle the situation when you chose to.

A double punishment makes sense for a double offense. If you're stealing something a crewmember needs in order to do his job, then you're committing an offense against the station (preventing it from functioning normally) and an offense against the player (dickishly ruining his fun without provocation). The in-character offense gets in-character punishment and the out-of-character offense gets out-of-character punishment.

Thievery should be handled the same way as other small-scale griefing like reading WGW. Doing it every once in an isolated while is just adding some variety to station life. Doing it every round is harassment and banworthy. Doing it to someone, then fighting back and killing them when they come after you is exploiting rules about escalation in order to get your validkills on, and should be banworthy.

A player who takes only defensive or reactive action should never be valid for killing by anyone but an antagonist.

Post by **NikNakFlak** » Wed May 20, 2015 12:27 am #89443

The killing and then fighting back rule was terrible which is why it was removed and admins just started giving out short bans for WGW or just giving WGW readers brain damage.

Falamazeer · Post by **Falamazeer** » Wed May 20, 2015 12:29 am #89444

Your rough draft is shit, No offense, but it's like you didn't even try, This further reinforces exactly what I was pointing out as the problem.
I can kill anyone I want so long as I steal something important to them first. then I just wait for them to react.

And ahelping because ' he stoled my shoes' isn't gonna get you very far, so people will naturally continue to try to handle it IC.

It's almost like this has been exactly the problem the entire time.