"Self-Antagging" via mining drops - clarify

[Fatal]

Bottom post of the previous page:

After an issue the other day in which a QM drugged a miner who got the gluttonys blessing, or whatever turns you into a morph, and then stole said item and used it, and then proceeded to come into RnD, destroy the robotics console, destroy the RD console, attack us when the miner came to kill him for stealing the gluttonys blessing in the first place, and then eventually ended up with 3 of us dead in research and him releasing the tesla also, and that's just what I saw whilst I was alive

What is allowed when you use these mining drops that turn you into these things?

We need some clear policy on it because people seem to be varied on their opinions

[onleavedontatme]

I've tried to remove lavaland half a dozen times stop closing my PRs

you don't use a cruise missile to kill a mouse

The common thread between a lot of these complaints, from the same group of people, seem to be that stuff from lavaland ends up impacting the station at all (the miner killed me with some loot he found, a monster or angry lizard tribe got on the station, etc). Like they've given up trying to have it removed and instead want to be able to ignore it entirely.

There is no point in having this big z level with tons of random content if none of that random content is allowed to change the flow of the game. The entire reason for the ruin system existing is so that round altering content could exist without it having to be consistently available.

[Gamarr]

It was an opinion, and a hopefully helpful way of looking at it from
-Crew seeing the drake on station and what effects it has
-What the miner could hopefully want to gain by being a destructive beast on the station.

A)Seriously, the only major flaw for ash drake is how automated its attacks still are with no control over how it shits out fire. THIS IS THE BAD PART OF PLAYER DRAKES. It would be a different situation but whether or not its a player, the end result is still a fucked up station because someone aggro'd it. The drake is as much at fault for being there as the person who did until a drake can just spit a fireball or something and not spew columns of collateral-causing fire.

B)Why morphs suddenly get to be an antag just because makes zero fucking logic to me. There is no reason for this to be different than the drake, and to my knowledge drakes are not antags by virtue of being a player drake. So why does this extend to a morph-by-gluttony for miner/anyone else using it. That's my two points.

Alteration: Make the morph syringe something that you use on a corpse or something, that gives you an enslaved morph-pet that pulls from ghosts. If you want to be useful to a miner, you can eat ore. Morphs will need a 'shit' button to crap out the little orey-pellets for him later though. Or better yet, the ore smelts in the morphs guts by some kind of kidney or grinding bullshit of its guts purifying the ore. I dunno.

[Screemonster]

A)Seriously, the only major flaw for ash drake is how automated its attacks still are with no control over how it shits out fire. THIS IS THE BAD PART OF PLAYER DRAKES. It would be a different situation but whether or not its a player, the end result is still a fucked up station because someone aggro'd it. The drake is as much at fault for being there as the person who did until a drake can just spit a fireball or something and not spew columns of collateral-causing fire.

Swap the big fuckoff + of fire in cardinal directions for a projectile that shits fire on every tile it passes? Hell, give it a little 3x3 burn area where it hits so it's still useful for fighting a crowd, just not "haha, fuck you bystanders".

[Grazyn]

There's a difference between overpowered loot that can be used to wreck havoc and permanently being transfomed into a dragon that can either wreck havoc or stay motionless for the rest of the round. Expecially when the transformation is only one of other possible positive outcomes from the vial. A miner with lava staff can kill a few people, or make some kind of lava dungeon on the station if he isn't antag. A rogue dragon is much more disruptive.

[D&B]

Honestly we should just move the Drake transform into a Drake heart and put that as the colossus drop so players don't get absolutely fucked over a random chance and the colossus drop doesn't suck ass anymore.

[CPTANT]

I don't get what the problem is in the first place. I would like a miner coming back as a drake. And escalation is basically assured in situations like that.

[D&B]

Honestly we should just move the Drake transform into a Drake heart and put that as the colossus drop so players don't get absolutely fucked over a random chance and the colossus drop doesn't suck ass anymore.

Double post sorry

Or make it like the wizards transform spell so the miner still has a chance to become human again.

[Grazyn]

I don't get what the problem is in the first place. I would like a miner coming back as a drake. And escalation is basically assured in situations like that.

Problem is that since you're valid to everyone and extremely dangerous, just going to the station counts as escalation. People will immediately attack you with lethal damage and if you defend yourself (which incidentally means shooting fire everywhere and draggin even more people into the fight) you get banned. This can be solved by giving it antag status BUT then you have the problem of miners getting it consistently round after round (not to mention it can happen in the first 10 minutes) and the drake is basically a fireballing/gibbing machine of round ending.

So yes there are a few option:
>button to transform back into a human
>instead of a single vial with multiple random outcomes, different vials with fixed outcome each with the same drop rate of the original outcomes chance. So you know you're really becoming a dragon and you're doing it willingly, just like a scientist knows what's he's doing when he transforms into a slime or something.

[ShadowDimentio]

I don't get what the problem is in the first place. I would like a miner coming back as a drake. And escalation is basically assured in situations like that.

Problem is that since you're valid to everyone and extremely dangerous, just going to the station counts as escalation. People will immediately attack you with lethal damage and if you defend yourself (which incidentally means shooting fire everywhere and draggin even more people into the fight) you get banned

Easy fix: Treat someone randomly attacking the player drake as randomly attacking another crewmember, and in return the drake isn't allowed to rampage on the station.

Upsides: The instigator gets banned for being a dick, Saeg gets mad because he can't ban the wrong person

Downsides: Literally nothing

[onleavedontatme]

Honestly we should just move the Drake transform into a Drake heart and put that as the colossus drop so players don't get absolutely fucked over a random chance and the colossus drop doesn't suck ass anymore.

Double post sorry

Or make it like the wizards transform spell so the miner still has a chance to become human again.

This would be a good idea until a traitor tries stunprodding a miner in maint and he just turns into a dragon without warning.

[Saegrimr]

>instead of a single vial with multiple random outcomes, different vials with fixed outcome each with the same drop rate of the original outcomes chance. So you know you're really becoming a dragon and you're doing it willingly, just like a scientist knows what's he's doing when he transforms into a slime or something.

That's an idea.

Also what Gamarr said, I don't see why Morphs are any different from the whole self-antagging shit.

[Gamarr]

This would be a good idea until a traitor tries stunprodding a miner in maint and he just turns into a dragon without warning.

Miner in maint? Deserves what happens then really because they are bothering one of the few people who should be nowhere near maint so far that their occupation is on another plane of existence.

Joking aside the player drake thing just needs some coding love to make it less like the npc version in regards to its powers.
Regarding getting a titled vial so you know what you are getting, I am somewhat ehh over. Part of the risk of trying to become flame proof should be 'turning into a drake.' That's the downside, that's the risk, the gamble if you drink the potion. The only conflict here is that people aren't regarding being a drake as a downside and thus want to go mingle while as a monstrosity. Part of that is a personal preference, and that is ok, but you ARE a drake and in regards to acting normal on the station, is an obvious detriment. They are not Human, they indiscriminately spit fire. I Want the indiscriminate part to change but until then it is a defining point of the player drake issue.

[Grazyn]

I don't get what the problem is in the first place. I would like a miner coming back as a drake. And escalation is basically assured in situations like that.

Problem is that since you're valid to everyone and extremely dangerous, just going to the station counts as escalation. People will immediately attack you with lethal damage and if you defend yourself (which incidentally means shooting fire everywhere and draggin even more people into the fight) you get banned

Easy fix: Treat someone randomly attacking the player drake as randomly attacking another crewmember, and in return the drake isn't allowed to rampage on the station.

Upsides: The instigator gets banned for being a dick, Saeg gets mad because he can't ban the wrong person

Downsides: Literally nothing

Did you read the thread in ban appeals that sparked this whole discussion? Admins basically confirmed that if you turn yourself into a dragon you are valid and any escalation is on your part, just for being a dragon. And yes, there's the issue with fire shooting everywhere when you attack, so you can't just deal with whoever is attacking you, bystanders are gonna get hurt.

Regarding getting a titled vial so you know what you are getting, I am somewhat ehh over. Part of the risk of trying to become flame proof should be 'turning into a drake.' That's the downside, that's the risk, the gamble if you drink the potion. The only conflict here is that people aren't regarding being a drake as a downside and thus want to go mingle while as a monstrosity. Part of that is a personal preference, and that is ok, but you ARE a drake and in regards to acting normal on the station, is an obvious detriment. They are not Human, they indiscriminately spit fire. I Want the indiscriminate part to change but until then it is a defining point of the player drake issue.

Yeah but with those restrictions you're just gambling your ability to keep playing the round. If you're not allowed to do anything as non-antag dragon, you may as well give the vial a random chance to kill you. That's why I used the xenobio example, if a non-antag scientist turns himself into a spider he's doing a conscious decision, he knows he won't be allowed to do shit and that people may kill him on sight. While the vial is supposed to be a reward, not another gimmick that can put you out of the round. You already took the risk of being gibbed when you fought the dragon.

[Cobby]

Honestly we should just move the Drake transform into a Drake heart and put that as the colossus drop so players don't get absolutely fucked over a random chance and the colossus drop doesn't suck ass anymore.

Kawaii Jellyfish is a great drop from Colossus though.

[D&B]

Honestly we should just move the Drake transform into a Drake heart and put that as the colossus drop so players don't get absolutely fucked over a random chance and the colossus drop doesn't suck ass anymore.

Kawaii Jellyfish is a great drop from Colossus though.

Too many cons for it to be not shit famalam.

Honestly we should just move the Drake transform into a Drake heart and put that as the colossus drop so players don't get absolutely fucked over a random chance and the colossus drop doesn't suck ass anymore.

Double post sorry

Or make it like the wizards transform spell so the miner still has a chance to become human again.

This would be a good idea until a traitor tries stunprodding a miner in maint and he just turns into a dragon without warning.

That's part of the fun and unknown of space.

[Hatfish]

What's the point of having all these fun items if you can't use them?

[Not-Dorsidarf]

What's the point of having all these fun items if you can't use them?

Because someone coded them, realised they were too incredibly bullshit even for R&D and went "A-ha! Lavaland! Perfect"

[onleavedontatme]

RD has a mech that can phase through walls.

This mech is locked behind RNG on whether or not you can get it that round. RND can build some lesser things, like shields or guns, because they are consistently available.

Lavaland has something that turns you into a morph.

it's locked behind RNG whether or not you can get it that round. Lavaland lets miners get some lesser things, like stronger KAs or hardsuits, because they are consistently

Things that happened too often on lavaland, and were nerfed/removed, off the top of my head: Lizards invaded, so they can't use guns anymore. Zombies spread and got the whole station, so they're entirely gone. Blessed would hunt drakes to turn into one and kill everyone, so the transformation is rarer and no longer a license to eat people. Repukan would get the blackbox every round and get a thousand wizard spells.

There is a consistency of "disruptive, but not too often" even in "bullshit" lavaland stuff.

[onleavedontatme]

But please, be more specific on what lavaland stuff you think is stronger than bags of holding, roundstart maxcaps, printing out infinite guns, flooding hostile npcs, endless adrenal implants, and so on.

[onleavedontatme]

I know, I'm never going to change your mind though, because the root of this is

get that allows them to just ignore the round entirely

Lavaland feels too "other" to some people, because of its physical separation and it's theme, and any influence it has on the round at all other than feeding RD will upset them. Despite it being the most popular job for nine months straight now, I know some of you don't consider it part of SS13 and never will.

[bman]

-TELEPORTS BEHIND U-

-UNSHEATHES KATANANS-

NOTHIN PERSONNEL squid- OH BOY WHAT DID I WALK INTO

first of all lavaland "i get to self-antag" drop are shit no matter how rare it was. i was the scientist during that morph round and was just doing rnd, then this faggot comes and starts smashing the computer, he smashes it after attacking us and then keeps coming back to see if we built the console again just to be a piece of shit

and this chemist morphined a miner and stole the syringe just to be a dick using the antag status.

i didnt know stage 5 terminal hits you that fast.

also did you know that morph is indestructible if it hides under table and uses a small item, it can kill you before you can even wrench down away the table, wew.

it feels too "other" for some people.

so kor what you mean is that you admit that lavaland drops and the entire miner job are snowflake garbage?

k.

[onleavedontatme]

The reason there are generally rules against self-antaging is because if all of security ran to get their implants out and join the cult/rev/gang, there'd be a complete breakdown in gameplay. There is no similar breakdown in gameplay when one miner gets turned into a monster on occasion.

The rest of your post is "i ded" and

so kor what you mean is that you admit that lavaland drops and the entire miner job are snowflake garbage?

k.

me being right about this being an "I hate lavaland on principle" thing.

And yes I tried to make all the various drops and treasures as snowflake as possible. As many things as possible function as uniquely as possible.

[Gamarr]

To me this just looks like a reskinned 'Why can't I be an antag with this e-sword I got?' Because why would you, you just have the tool, not the reason to be an antag. Nobody is forcing someone to use the drake potion/morph syringe on themselves.

Please address why a morph gets to be an antag little shit while a drake does not. One makes sense and the other doesn't, can you guess which is which?

[onleavedontatme]

Because the drake can happen every round and the morph cant, I said that last page. You may not agree with my reasoning but I have adressed it several times.

[Gamarr]

A drake has a higher chance of happening, it is not guaranteed, and that reason is absolute trash about why a morph gets to be an antag over the other things.

[onleavedontatme]

A drake has a higher chance of happening, it is not guaranteed, and that reason is absolute trash about why a morph gets to be an antag over the other things.

The entire structure of the game is a random chance of the round and events choosing what disasters and antagonosts to spit at the station, I don't think the map doing similar is a radical departure from that.

I'm probably being overly stubborn on this but it's exhausting and annoying trying for almost a year and appease people who admit they're going to hate the whole thing anyway (though I realize you're not one of those people).

[ShadowDimentio]

Why do you idiots even care about the morph that MIGHT happen to ONE miner who gets VERY LUCKY and HAPPENS to find a Gluttony ruin AND want to end his mining round and be a morph?

I'd be more concerned about the round's PRIMARY ANTAGONIST that has an infinitely higher chance of fucking your round up that a miner morph, because at the end of the day morphs are annoying, not dangerous.

[BeeSting12]

Gluttony blessing should give you an objective to eat as much stuff as possible. There, it's an antag. The drake is a bit of a grey area, but I feel that it should be more player controlled- no random fire storms- and that they are allowed to escalate in self defense. The gluttony's blessing is rare enough that it won't be a problem if a miner gets free antag once in a while. If people use some common sense and try negotiating with the dragon instead of lel valid, this probably won't be an issue.

[PKPenguin321]

maybe i just havent observed enough but since i became an admin i havent seen a single issue arise with any "self antagging tool" short of hearing about and seeing a ban appeal for 1 incident.

this sounds like bikeshedding

[ShadowDimentio]

Gluttony blessing should give you an objective to eat as much stuff as possible.

It already does.

The drake is a bit of a grey area, but I feel that it should be more player controlled- no random fire storms- and that they are allowed to escalate in self defense.

I agree.

[Grazyn]

The difference is that the morph syringe isn't a reward. Find the ruin, eat a couple monkey cubes, walk in. If you want to end your round and be bored to death because you can't go on a rampage, you're free to do it. Just like a non-antag scientist mind-transferring into a bear or something. The blood vial from the dragon is supposed to be a reward, and nobody has yet explained to me why the reward should be a random roll that can permanently take you out of the round if you are unlucky enough to roll drake. Make it drop a random vial like "drake bile" "drake saliva" "drake bone marrow" each with fixed effects so at least you know what you're doing.

[Fatal]

Well, the morph in question from the original discussion, was NOT a miner

It was a QM, I think, or someone, who syringe morphined the miner who DID get the gluttonys and then became a cunt doing it

So in the context Id say it was THAT act, and not the further act of being the morph that was the real shit

I understand if a miner gets it and uses it because he earned it, but the other guy was all, muh valids, took the blessing for himself, so yeah, that was pretty poor, but morphs CAN be pretty cool, we had one yesterday that wasn't trying to ruin peoples departments and kill people and it generally got left alone to play with it's gimmick

So like most things I think this boils down to some players are just shitlords

[kevinz000]

Just had a round where a morph ruined an extended round by eating literally everything, and burning down a quarter of the station. Why is xenobiology not allowed to self-antag but mining is, and with argueably stronger antags the two being the lesser ash drake and the morph?

[Incomptinence]

Maybe because xenobiology could then mass produce antags whereas lavaland can make hypothetically 2 if the stars align.

Lavaland is a harsh place and posing a danger beyond the goofy ashlizard turkey shoot to the station is part of the fun.

Also don't listen to saeg on anything beyond the going through the motions same old same old round based game play. He just wants a license to admin grief any of these roles, remember his away mission syndicate cage.

[Fatal]

Yeah that round was pretty terrible

Message from centcomm "There are no threats, do building projects"

Armory gets eaten, science and escape plasma fire, and half the telecomms machines get eaten by the morph

That wasn't fun for anyone besides the morph

At least give the morph objectives like, eat X and X or something

[ShadowDimentio]

You could have killed it. One dude with decent aim and an egun kills morphs dead unless they exclusively stick to vents.

[kevinz000]

Gee man I'd like to see you track down a rampaging vent morph when security has about 3 lethal weapons because I didn't powergame that round without an AI and it running faster then your runspeed and way faster than projectiles. Go do that shadowdimentio and il stop complaining because we had a security force of fucking 4 including warden.

[Saegrimr]

You could have killed the drake
You could have killed the 30 gold slime mobs
You could have bombed the singulo someone released
You could have killed yourself

[onleavedontatme]

"Is making yourself into a non antag monster and then killing people who attack you banbaiting?" and "should morph syringe give antag?" are two different questions and should be in different threads.

[ShadowDimentio]

You could have killed the drake
You could have killed the 30 gold slime mobs
You could have bombed the singulo someone released
You could have killed yourself

Now That's What I Call Fallacy: Volume 1

[Saegrimr]

You could have killed the drake
You could have killed the 30 gold slime mobs
You could have bombed the singulo someone released
You could have killed yourself

Now That's What I Call Fallacy: Volume 1

How so? You could have just killed the morph.

[ShadowDimentio]

You're actually bad if you think morphs are comparable to a drake/30 gold slime mobs/the singu

[Saegrimr]

You're actually bad if you think morphs are comparable to a drake/30 gold slime mobs/the singu

I'm not sure why you or kor are trying to distinguish two objects that do the same thing.

Both turn you in a mob that's only purpose is to destroy everything, bonus points for being a nonantag using it.

[ShadowDimentio]

Why do you idiots even care about the morph that MIGHT happen to ONE miner who gets VERY LUCKY and HAPPENS to find a Gluttony ruin AND want to end his mining round and be a morph?

I'd be more concerned about the round's PRIMARY ANTAGONIST that has an infinitely higher chance of fucking your round up that a miner morph, because at the end of the day morphs are annoying, not dangerous.

[BeeSting12]

Gluttony blessing should give you an objective to eat as much stuff as possible.

It already does.

Then why is this an issue? It is an antag because it has an objective to eat as much stuff as possible and it does so. If people are going to get in trouble for "self antagging," aka using miner loot, then it should be removed similar to the sex change surgery was. The other solution is that people stop whining about something that happens in 8 rounds out of 140. The drake thing is a seperate issue, and as Kor said, should be two different policy threads.

[PKPenguin321]

You could have killed the drake
You could have killed the 30 gold slime mobs
You could have bombed the singulo someone released
You could have killed yourself

Now see this is actually pretty dumb since you can kill a morph with less than a full clip from an egun. They're actually pretty fragile and even if they're disguised as something tiny bullets still won't go over them. If you weld vents, morphs are basically RIP.

[Cobby]

To add to the autism that is this thread, I think self-antagging to any degree on known extended shouldn't be ok

[Reece]

This thread is basically everything wrong.
"So if I kill a monster...I don't get to murderbone?"

[Incomptinence]

"So if I become a monster... I might as well be dead!"

This valid but not allowed to fight back because 2robust5me mindset is bloody stupid. The dumbest most weak addendum imaginable on non human mobs being allowed to defend themselves. Oh no a naked assistant can't take on a H.O.N.K. better ban any clown that builds one!

Stop being europa class wet blankets.

Fix the involuntary area attack on dragon melee or whatever.

[kevinz000]

You could have killed the drake
You could have killed the 30 gold slime mobs
You could have bombed the singulo someone released
You could have killed yourself

Now see this is actually pretty dumb since you can kill a morph with less than a full clip from an egun. They're actually pretty fragile and even if they're disguised as something tiny bullets still won't go over them. If you weld vents, morphs are basically RIP.

Oh come on! It only takes 15 lasers to kill a lesser ash drake. What's the issue? They only have 300 health! They only heal by eating a body!
Oh come on! It only takes a couple lasers per mob! They don't even self heal and you can easily kite them and heal!
Oh come on! It's easy to BoHbomb a singulo to death! Takes like 4 if you're lucky! What's the issue here? Get good!

[D&B]

You could have killed the drake
You could have killed the 30 gold slime mobs
You could have bombed the singulo someone released
You could have killed yourself

Now see this is actually pretty dumb since you can kill a morph with less than a full clip from an egun. They're actually pretty fragile and even if they're disguised as something tiny bullets still won't go over them. If you weld vents, morphs are basically RIP.

Oh come on! It only takes 15 lasers to kill a lesser ash drake. What's the issue? They only have 300 health! They only heal by eating a body!
Oh come on! It only takes a couple lasers per mob! They don't even self heal and you can easily kite them and heal!
Oh come on! It's easy to BoHbomb a singulo to death! Takes like 4 if you're lucky! What's the issue here? Get good!

How dare YOU ask ME to respond to dangers and try to fix it??????

Fucking power gamers get the fuck out of my server reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee