Security is more or less impossible to deal with IC

onleavedontatme · Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:53 pm

Bottom post of the previous page:

What is the appropriate response when security attacks you/abuses you/arrests you FNR for 20 minutes?

Adminhelping about cell times or false arrests is generally "IC issue," but retaliating violently will get you banned. If you retaliate non violently they'll "escalate" to murdering you or permabrigging you. They're allowed to break into anywhere they want, take what they want, etc. Nobody IC will care because everyone knows they can't be antagonists.

Is there an appropriate response other than rolling over and dying/letting the guy mess with your round?

And no this isn't just about that recent ban appeal, this has been something that's been bothering me for a while. We have a class of player who is more or less rules free yet it's bannable to retaliate or protect yourself.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:12 am #234637

Guys what if

wait

no what if

we ban shitty sec players from sec

I know Kor has an aversion to this whole ban thing but

you kno

what if

Davidchan · Post by **Davidchan** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:57 am #234639

Saegrimr wrote:Guys what if

wait

no what if

we ban shitty sec players from sec

I know Kor has an aversion to this whole ban thing but

you kno

what if

Literally every thread about secborgs

Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:58 am

Davidchan wrote:@penguinz not breaking space law and serving sentances would be doable if space law wasn't optional and applied equally. Thze entire point of this discussion is sec is doi ng what ever they want and getting 0 repricussions for it. If anyone without an implant did half the shit sec does they'd get banned. When's the last time you saw sec arrest one of their own for taking things too far?

One time two players got in a fight at the HoP line. Sec arrested them both, and one ahelped that he was getting arrest "fnr" because "the other guy started it so I shouldn't be in jail, sec is just griefing me." I had to tell him that sec had literally no way of knowing who started what and was completely in the right, even if he really did do nothing wrong. "No! sec is just shit. i'm going to kill them as soon as i get out."

Maybe I don't admin enough like maybe one out of the ten "sec is griffing me!!!!!!!!" ahelps are actually legitimate. People disregard actually just serving their sentences for some reason, never even trying it, then having the audacity to say that it doesn't work. I've had people in the gulag ahelp that they were griffed, to which I subsequently learned that they actually just ahelped because they didn't know how to serve a gulag sentence and instead wanted to get out of it by blaming sec.

I don't think this is a real issue.

Not-Dorsidarf · Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:51 am

Yesterday some assistant got arrested on a trumped-up charge for a crime the demonstrably didn't commit, pushed the warden over on the way out, and got buckshotted to death in the halls and their brain deconstructed, along with some random bystander.

Lumbermancer · Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:10 pm

Well did you ban the guy who killed him then?

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:21 pm #234705

Yeah I mean barring other context that just sounds like something they'd get bwoinked for

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:26 pm #234709

That person was removed with gusto.

Post by **Fatal** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:27 pm #234710

Remove lawyer

Add internal affairs

Copybass · Post by **Copybass** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:30 pm #234712

Fatal wrote:Remove lawyer

Add internal affairs

I've always wanted an opportunity to play tater IAA without having to be on /vg/

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:45 pm #234718

How would an Internal Affairs role work?

My suggestion:
- They are specifically tasked with keeping an eye on Security and Heads of Staff.
- They are loyalty implanted and not eligible for antags. They have the same access as lawyers.
- They get an ability or a device that allows them to communicate with "central command"(admins), which are (in theory) treated similarly to chaplain's prayers.
- The role is whitelisted and/or tied to account age (or whatever we're doing for this)
- They would be subject to rules and policies that narrowly define what they can and cannot do. Likewise, similar rules would be placed stipulating that players who abuse the IA without cause will receive OOC punishments as well.
- They would get a hub scoreboard for "successful" complaints, as determined by admins (Unless you can think of another reward for playing what would be an otherwise thankless role)

TheColdTurtle · Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:48 pm

Oh God please not another fucking scoreboard

Takeguru · Post by **Takeguru** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:03 pm #234732

Just cut the snowflake rules sec gets

If they are acting like an antag, they get dunked ignore their salty ahelps move on

It's one thing if a tider randomly kills an officer but if the officer deserves it ignore his salt and move on

Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:07 pm

Atlanta-Ned wrote:How would an Internal Affairs role work?

My suggestion:
- They are specifically tasked with keeping an eye on Security and Heads of Staff.
- They are loyalty implanted and not eligible for antags. They have the same access as lawyers.
- They get an ability or a device that allows them to communicate with "central command"(admins), which are (in theory) treated similarly to chaplain's prayers.
- The role is whitelisted and/or tied to account age (or whatever we're doing for this)
- They would be subject to rules and policies that narrowly define what they can and cannot do.
- They would get a hub scoreboard for "successful" complaints, as determined by admins (Unless you can think of another reward for playing what would be an otherwise thankless role)

I think the problem would be getting security officers to take the IA agent seriously. People barely listen to the Captain and other heads as it is.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:10 pm #234738

Sometinyprick wrote:I think the problem would be getting security officers to take the IA agent seriously. People barely listen to the Captain and other heads as it is.

Lawyers already get immediately arrested and their ID stolen for being in the brig.

Copybass · Post by **Copybass** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:15 pm #234741

Atlanta-Ned wrote:How would an Internal Affairs role work?

My suggestion:
- They are specifically tasked with keeping an eye on Security and Heads of Staff.
- They are loyalty implanted and not eligible for antags. They have the same access as lawyers.
- They get an ability or a device that allows them to communicate with "central command"(admins), which are (in theory) treated similarly to chaplain's prayers.
- The role is whitelisted and/or tied to account age (or whatever we're doing for this)
- They would be subject to rules and policies that narrowly define what they can and cannot do.
- They would get a hub scoreboard for "successful" complaints, as determined by admins (Unless you can think of another reward for playing what would be an otherwise thankless role)

A. Sounds about right, they're the watcher that watches the watchmen, they aren't involved in anything departmental as departmental is HoP's area, though they would be able to closer scrutinize Sec and keep an eye on the HoS.
B. This is tricky. Traitor IAA sounds like a hecking good time because they would be able to pull people into their office to reprimand / question them, close the shutters and go to town. Also would be a fun role for non-murderboner antag, and in my mind could be some neat roleplay.

Edit to add to this: Maybe make it so they don't have disposals and no maint tunnel so it's harder for them to sneak a body out aside from their locker.
C. Make it a console in their office, as well as a PDA with fewer features. Would be neat if the IAA had a codeword that he would use, a la CIA/FBI tropes when calling in that would make it so that other users of the console wouldn't be able to send responses to NT easily, and would instead just have their call be routed to reception.
D. Yes.
E and F. Way I see IAA, they have to try and keep everyone from being shitcurity and comdoms, as well as firing and re-promoting as necessary, but through the proper channels. Never actually able to remove power themselves, they would need to be able to get Cent announcements that it's now in their hands to facilitate blah blah. In terms of Antag, I could see IAA as being able to fake Cent announcements with a TC trade, but Cent would still be able to respond with "Hey, we didn't say that!" - Which would add for more interesting things because an IAA could also fake a "Hey, we didn't say that!". One big issue with this is that if it's entirely admin controlled - We're looking at another role that is super boring in off hours, and relies on admins playing their little games. Playing a chap that never gets responses is boring - Playing an IAA that never gets responses would be soulcrushing.

Screemonster · Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:22 pm

Saegrimr wrote:
Sometinyprick wrote:I think the problem would be getting security officers to take the IA agent seriously. People barely listen to the Captain and other heads as it is.
Lawyers already get immediately arrested and their ID stolen for being in the brig.

maybe try banning the sec officers that do that

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:35 pm #234747

Saegrimr wrote:
Sometinyprick wrote:I think the problem would be getting security officers to take the IA agent seriously. People barely listen to the Captain and other heads as it is.
Lawyers already get immediately arrested and their ID stolen for being in the brig.

FUCK. I neglected to mention in my original post that rules and policies would also be introduced stipulating that mistreating the IA without cause would result in OOC punishments.

Copybass · Post by **Copybass** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:39 pm #234750

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
Saegrimr wrote:
Sometinyprick wrote:I think the problem would be getting security officers to take the IA agent seriously. People barely listen to the Captain and other heads as it is.
Lawyers already get immediately arrested and their ID stolen for being in the brig.
FUCK. I neglected to mention in my original post that rules and policies would also be introduced stipulating that mistreating the IA without cause would result in OOC punishments.

Nah, make it an IC issue, if sec bullies an IAA, takes their ID and throws them out without good reason, IAA PDAs Cent and Cent bluespaces an officer, afterall that's what IAA is there for in the first place.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:40 pm #234751

Takeguru wrote:Just cut the snowflake rules sec gets

If they are acting like an antag, they get dunked ignore their salty ahelps move on

It's one thing if a tider randomly kills an officer but if the officer deserves it ignore his salt and move on

And then we get back to SoS times like Saegrimir said. It's hard not to have snowflake rules for a role whose job is literally to mess with other people's rounds. It should be noted that sec is already held to a higher standard as far as random killing goes, since they have access to stuns while the regular spessman can usually only defend himself with lethal damage. If a botanist stuns you out of the blue he's probably going to kill/convert you; a sec officer is probably acting on incomplete information and the most correct course of action shouldn't be to throw a tantrum, threaten to bomb the brig, and ahelp when some officer finally kills you after you went on a personal jihad against the whole of sec.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:43 pm #234754

Copybass wrote: A. Sounds about right, they're the watcher that watches the watchmen, they aren't involved in anything departmental as departmental is HoP's area, though they would be able to closer scrutinize Sec and keep an eye on the HoS.
B. This is tricky. Traitor IAA sounds like a hecking good time because they would be able to pull people into their office to reprimand / question them, close the shutters and go to town. Also would be a fun role for non-murderboner antag, and in my mind could be some neat roleplay. Edit to add to this: Maybe make it so they don't have disposals and no maint tunnel so it's harder for them to sneak a body out aside from their locker.
C. Make it a console in their office, as well as a PDA with fewer features. Would be neat if the IAA had a codeword that he would use, a la CIA/FBI tropes when calling in that would make it so that other users of the console wouldn't be able to send responses to NT easily, and would instead just have their call be routed to reception.
D. Yes.
E and F. Way I see IAA, they have to try and keep everyone from being shitcurity and comdoms, as well as firing and re-promoting as necessary, but through the proper channels. Never actually able to remove power themselves, they would need to be able to get Cent announcements that it's now in their hands to facilitate blah blah. In terms of Antag, I could see IAA as being able to fake Cent announcements with a TC trade, but Cent would still be able to respond with "Hey, we didn't say that!" - Which would add for more interesting things because an IAA could also fake a "Hey, we didn't say that!". One big issue with this is that if it's entirely admin controlled - We're looking at another role that is super boring in off hours, and relies on admins playing their little games. Playing a chap that never gets responses is boring - Playing an IAA that never gets responses would be soulcrushing.

I don't want to rule out the IA being an antag, but what I outlined is specifically designed to put security on their toes.

I'd say that the communications tools need to be heavily restricted so they can't be abused. IE: Their communications console is protected by a password, similarly to the PDA monitoring console. However, this password would only exist in their IC player notes (the way nuke ops get the nuke code). This would be fun for changelings though

Yes, that is the problem. 99% of the time this job should be soul-crushingly dull, so we need to make it rewarding. In theory, admins wouldn't ignore an IA message like they do chaplain prayers, because the IA should ONLY be contacting centcom when they have something to report. Unlike the chaplain, which is mostly just super annoying most of the time.

Copybass wrote:Nah, make it an IC issue, if sec bullies an IAA, takes their ID and throws them out without good reason, IAA PDAs Cent and Cent bluespaces an officer, afterall that's what IAA is there for in the first place.

That's a good point as well.

Copybass · Post by **Copybass** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:33 pm #234765

Atlanta-Ned wrote: I'd say that the communications tools need to be heavily restricted so they can't be abused. IE: Their communications console is protected by a password, similarly to the PDA monitoring console. However, this password would only exist in their IC player notes (the way nuke ops get the nuke code). This would be fun for changelings though
That's a good point as well.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking with my codeword statement. I wasn't too sure on how Lings work because I've never played one, but if they get memories including things like IC notes, that would be neat, as well it could actually be really interesting to see an antag kidnap an IAA, bucklecuff them without a headset, and torture them to try and get their password to communicate with Cent as them. A creative torture scenario could equal some real chaos as Cent is told the HoS has been mass murdering assistants, be it true or not.

Post by **Fatal** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:15 pm #234768

The problem with lawyers is they have no authority, and they basically are worthless

From what I gather, IA on other servers are backed up quite heavily by the rules, you can't just kick them outta the brig like you can lawyers

The other problem is the Captain, and HOS, should be demoting with and dealing with shitsec, but generally those two are just as bad or worse

I think stamping down harder on HOS and Captains who are shits might help this issue somewhat

Man_Shroom · Post by **Man_Shroom** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:23 pm #234769

>be shitter
>grief sec
>get long timer
>its ok to kill them now

yeah if you can actually manage to kill them then it's fine

trial by combat

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 7:29 pm #234775

DrPillzRedux wrote:
Man_Shroom wrote:
Adminhelping about cell times or false arrests is generally "IC issue," but retaliating violently will get you banned.
make it not bannable

breaking the law in game(general mayhem) should not be cause for banning

just let the fights be an ic issue
>be shitter
>grief sec
>get long timer
>its ok to kill them now

To be honest I am fine with that. After long timers sec will be zero tolerance towards you anyway. I can deal with such people IC, shitters almost never win.

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:54 pm #234788

How to fix shitsec.
1. Bring back secborgs, make them whitelist. Earnable by good...PEACEKEEPER borg play.
2. Add zipties to peacekeeper borg.
3. Tie the hypospray tiring solution to the peacekeepr borgs energy and allow it to act like a melee disabler.
4. Open up a roundstart slot for security cyborg and one for AI cyborg. Perhaps only allow AI borgs to become Engi/Default/Service/Medical/Mining and add a new "Sec MMI" that allows transformation into a peacekeeper/secborg.
5. AND THE BIG ONE. SECBORGS/PEACEKEEPR BORGS ARE NO LONGER SLAVED TO THE AI AND HAVE AN UPLOAD IN THE HOS' OFFICE. THEY START WITH ONE LAW.

1. UPHOLD SPACE LAW.

Post by **Atlanta-Ned** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:55 pm #234789

Sweets wrote:How to fix shitsec.
1. Bring back secborgs, make them whitelist. Earnable by good...PEACEKEEPER borg play.
2. Add zipties to peacekeeper borg.
3. Tie the hypospray tiring solution to the peacekeepr borgs energy and allow it to act like a melee disabler.
4. Open up a roundstart slot for security cyborg and one for AI cyborg. Perhaps only allow AI borgs to become Engi/Default/Service/Medical/Mining and add a new "Sec MMI" that allows transformation into a peacekeeper/secborg.
5. AND THE BIG ONE. SECBORGS/PEACEKEEPR BORGS ARE NO LONGER SLAVED TO THE AI AND HAVE AN UPLOAD IN THE HOS' OFFICE. THEY START WITH ONE LAW.

1. UPHOLD SPACE LAW.

Go read the banner at the top of this page. Go on, we'll wait.

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 9:28 pm #234793

Asimov with law 2 only applying to centcom, cap,hos and warden in that order.

onleavedontatme · Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:18 pm

I think people are missing the point of this thread. Security killing people is generally blatant enough that an admin will pay attention to whether or not it's okay.

Security smashing into departments to steal things, giving excessive sentences, arresting people literally FNR, beating people, etc, often up don't pass the threshhold from IC issue to admin attention worthy, yet retaliating lethally against them (anything less is ineffective) does.

The OP was meant to be about shitty, but not outright murderous, behavior.

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:26 pm #234833

DrPillzRedux wrote:The big thing goon sec had over tg sec was their mindset. Goon sec revolved around just having fun. Whenever I caught a traitor on goon who wasn't murderboning I just did something silly, took their syndie gear, then let them go. Removing them from the round just made it stagnant and uninteresting.

I wish more fucking people understood this

danno · Post by **danno** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:30 pm #234835

it's so fucking tiring seeing shitter heads of security and the like finding someone who emagged into science to steal slime extract or something and just slaughtering them, stepping back, hands on their hips going "Ah yes, nice, I have won Space Station 13 The Video Game now >:)"

TheColdTurtle · Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:50 pm

Thing is if you do that once then you will almost certainly die in this server.

Man_Shroom · Post by **Man_Shroom** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:51 pm #234843

see today i had a run in with security

after politely asking for krav magloves i was harmbaton ruthlessly

it kickstarted a slow and cruel blood feud between me and sec and it ended with the brig destroyed and me dead, but it was very cathartic

and the best of all was that it didn't even need admin intervention to be solved

TheColdTurtle wrote:Thing is if you do that once then you will almost certainly die in this server.

do what once?

lzimann · Post by **lzimann** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:53 pm #234844

danno wrote:it's so fucking tiring seeing shitter heads of security and the like finding someone who emagged into science to steal slime extract or something and just slaughtering them, stepping back, hands on their hips going "Ah yes, nice, I have won Space Station 13 The Video Game now >:)"

The solution is to not get caught then.

As for the thread, let's just remove all rules and make everyone solve IC, for better or worst, what could go wrong?

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:55 pm #234847

>validhunting shitters everywhere
>lol just don't get caught

Man_Shroom · Post by **Man_Shroom** » Mon Dec 12, 2016 11:58 pm #234849

As for the thread, let's just remove all rules and make everyone solve IC, for better or worst, what could go wrong?

This is how things used to be done on bagil when there were never admins on. People just solved problems IC

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:26 am #234864

That is also the way i like to solve problems whenever possible. In fact, allowing someone to retaliate against shitter sec was what caused Tornadium to blow his top and break his probation for the millionth time. Maybe there is something to it.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:24 am #234974

Tell me why I shouldn't summarily remove you from the round if you do any of the following;
Welderbombing.
Murderboning.
Helping an antag.
Bombing.
Sec killer.
Antag and past history from previous rounds.
Making the round worse for sec.
Being unbearable to play with as sec.
Contributing nothing positive to the round.

The last I played, I don't remember antags being executed for being antag a outside of David273's metashittery as HOS.

I decided they weren't worth keeping in the round when they dragged a fuel tank after welderbombing brig 8 rounds in a row.

I partially blame admins on their often inconsistent and lax on player policy. One player is allowed to murderbone and make rounds awful for others simply because "I'm oldfag and this is how I play" and on the other hand, someone is banned for a week because they're not new but not old and they decided to push themselves too thin.

I kill more non antags than antags as sec. I can count the amount of them that've copped a ban on one hand.

Screemonster · Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:35 am

J_Madison wrote: Antag and past history from previous rounds.

are you saying that as sec you will arrest someone for being an antag on a previous round

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 10:38 am #234979

Screemonster wrote:
J_Madison wrote: Antag and past history from previous rounds.
are you saying that as sec you will arrest someone for being an antag on a previous round

Please say yes please say yes please say yes

Lumbermancer · Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:44 pm

What if sec officers could be locked down and exploded just like borgs.

Cw3040 · Post by **Cw3040** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 1:50 pm #235029

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
Screemonster wrote:Kor is getting too pure for this sinful universe.

Really though, they should be subject to the same "act like an antag and get your cunt kicked in" as everyone else, for all another player without a sechud knows you could be a ling impersonating an officer, an antag assistant who sweet-talked the HoP/HoS into a transfer into sec, or any number of things that foil the "sec officer, must be trustworthy even when they do rampantly untrustworthy things" meta.
Argh but where do we draw the line "acting like an antag"? We already have people resorting to lethals over short brig sentences.

Ahem or people resorting to non-lethal solutions and still getting bwoinked.

But seriously, we have too much shitsec and not enough watchmen to keep them in check. IAA would only really work if everyone RPs, and not everyone RPs on basil. Especially not Sybil. There's a reason Devil got removed from the regular rotation.

Honestly, many of the problems presented would be averted with a higher requirement for RP.

TheColdTurtle · Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:12 pm

I think maison means if they were just being huge shutters every round for many rounds straight. Like if an assistant just roles assistant and constantly welder bombs everyone then that is what he thinks deserves extra action.

Cw3040 · Post by **Cw3040** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:14 pm #235037

TheColdTurtle wrote:I think maison means if they were just being huge shutters every round for many rounds straight. Like if an assistant just roles assistant and constantly welder bombs everyone then that is what he thinks deserves extra action.

That warrants more action, yes. I'm an asshole, but not even I'm that bad. I just try to be a more malicious clown-thief with maintenance access. Welderbombing is just faggotry.

Post by **Arianya** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 2:44 pm #235039

Make reasonless greytide bannable and then make FNR brigging bannable.

Also do what I said before and seperate the brig/brigging from the sec officer's duties and make the warden more process driven.

Or just accept that a role that is defacto meant to rain on people's parades is never going to be well liked because everyone has a different idea of what good sec is.

Also lmao at:

Atlanta-Ned wrote:
Go read the banner at the top of this page. Go on, we'll wait.

Maybe if you want security to be accountable for their actions then maybe make Space Law canon/the official standard and bwoink them for not following Space Law. Its kinda rubbish to say "Sec should be accountable to this vague idea of good sec that I hold in my head which isn't tied to Space Law!"

imblyings · Post by **imblyings** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:19 pm #235045

Spoiler:

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:34 pm #235046

inb4 Games Workshop issues a DMCA on ausops post for having the gall to use their super private patented term for marines in space

Post by **Cobby** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 3:57 pm #235057

As someone who has played sec, it's going to be incredibly frustrating to deal with people knowing that if they think I've wronged them for doing what I think is right they're going to up it to lethals because tee hee valid time!

But sure, if you have legitimately been PURPOSEFULLY wronged [think JLP-tier shitcurity], then yeah you should be able to fight back and i'll tell the officer to not be a dick and he won't get killed. If you get framed or the officer is misinformed and you kill him instead of trying to clear your name, I'm not going to be too excited.

Also everytime I've spared an antag they end up not just killing me but also murderboning the station, so the only way to be spared is to advocate that antags can't murderbone [ugh rules!] or pray that the officer you have hasn't been betrayed yet.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 5:13 pm #235085

That's why you give released traitors a tracking implant and a chem implant filled with 50u of chloral from the execution syringes in the execution room. At best, it'll dissuade them from fucking around any more, at worst they'll waste a bunch of time trying to remove their implants or trying to figure out how to nullify the chems in advance and then you can shoot them when you see them without the blue dot

Supermichael777 · Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:42 pm

The real problem is that people see escalation as a permanent round thing when its not supposed to be

Once you disengage from the fight and are no longer at risk you LOSE the right to fight back with lethal force. You have lethal force justification if they come back for round 2 but you can't disengage, get healed, then go hunting for that valid. this especially apply if you get arrested. The fight is over, you lost, once the punishment is done you don't get to go DEATH DEATH MURDER RED. i see so many shitheads trying to pick fights so they can hunt someone all round its not funny. the kind of assholes who stay in the brig to have a punch-up with another detainee over a bar fight from an hour ago.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:00 pm #235108

Supermichael777 wrote:The real problem is that people see escalation as a permanent round thing when its not supposed to be

Once you disengage from the fight and are no longer at risk you LOSE the right to fight back with lethal force. You have lethal force justification if they come back for round 2 but you can't disengage, get healed, then go hunting for that valid. this especially apply if you get arrested. The fight is over, you lost, once the punishment is done you don't get to go DEATH DEATH MURDER RED. i see so many shitheads trying to pick fights so they can hunt someone all round its not funny. the kind of assholes who stay in the brig to have a punch-up with another detainee over a bar fight from an hour ago.

Actually escalation policy explicitly mentions that "Proportionate retribution is defined as a relatively equal amount of force applied to someone in revenge for an earlier attack". This means that even if you lose the initial confrontation (e.g. you got killed and cloned) you can go back for round 2. And 3, and 4 etc. Your right to revenge doesn't expire.

Now, it may be a meme, but most people really seem to apply the non-aggression principle when dealing with security, they never assume that sec might be in good faith and acting on incomplete or wrong information, they immediately believe that any coertion against themselves is malicious and outrageous, then use the full extent of their powers to get revenge from those who wronged them, even if it turns out to be the whole of security.

onleavedontatme · Tue Dec 13, 2016 7:49 pm

I feel like this thread has descended into a false dilemnia of "let security do whatever they want forever" vs "I guess we have to let security be murdered if they arrest people now!"

It's possible to let security suffer consequences for bad behavior, whether from admins or player retaliation, without saying they're perma valid to anyone.