Security is more or less impossible to deal with IC

[onleavedontatme]

Bottom post of the previous page:

What is the appropriate response when security attacks you/abuses you/arrests you FNR for 20 minutes?

Adminhelping about cell times or false arrests is generally "IC issue," but retaliating violently will get you banned. If you retaliate non violently they'll "escalate" to murdering you or permabrigging you. They're allowed to break into anywhere they want, take what they want, etc. Nobody IC will care because everyone knows they can't be antagonists.

Is there an appropriate response other than rolling over and dying/letting the guy mess with your round?

And no this isn't just about that recent ban appeal, this has been something that's been bothering me for a while. We have a class of player who is more or less rules free yet it's bannable to retaliate or protect yourself.

[Jembo]

Why don't we just ban shitty sec players, you know like we should have done to silicons before everybody got their nuts in a bunch and removed them.

If people are bad

why
bother
keeping them

Because it depends on the admin you get when you admin help shitty behavior from sec. There are no set rules in how to deal with a sec officer being assholes to other players for the sake of ruining another persons fun. Some people get off with warnings, but some admins don't keep track of warnings in admin notes so bad behavior often gets over looked. There are also some admins who view it as an IC issue, but will be quick to throw a ban at a player for enacting any sort of payback against offending officers. It's like you're fucked either way as a player. If a sec officer is being horrible, and you don't adminhelp and lock them in maint. Or just beat the shit outta them. Then they can adminhelp you, and it looks like you're just grey tiding sec despite their horrible behavior being the root cause of the situation.

If you adminhelp and you get an admin who doesn't agree with you, you're wasting your time because even though we have a rule that states don't be a dick. Their Opinion > Your opinion, suck it up butter cup but don't escalate the situation or you'll cop a ban.

[Saegrimr]

There are no set rules in how to deal with a sec officer being assholes to other players for the sake of ruining another persons fun.

This, we literally have no idea what we're doing. It's all a big whim and flip of the coin if anybody even wants to deal with it at the time and not just call it an IC issue to get away from it.

[J_Madison]

theres seldom a concrete "yeah let's ban this guy" case.

Most sec treatments are one side of the story.
Powergaming sec is a reaction to powergaming players/antags.
Ruthless sec is a response to cut throat IC escalation.
Unfair treatment is the same as IC relationships.

[CPTANT]

That's the whole problem. As it stands, the only reasons someone would complain about security are "antag" and "shitter." Which means security basically gets free reign to do whatever they want, unopposed.

Note: This is not an argument to go back to the SoS days where security couldn't take any action without being bwoinked. It's an argument to restore the IC checks and balances, and resulting uncertainty/conflict/paranoia, that the game is designed on.

Why don't we just ban shitty sec players, you know like we should have done to silicons before everybody got their nuts in a bunch and removed them.

If people are bad

why
bother
keeping them

Because playing with the feeling that every mistake you make is going to get you banned is an order of magnitude more shit than any IC interaction will ever be.

[FantasticFwoosh]

Note: This is not an argument to go back to the SoS days where security couldn't take any action without being bwoinked. It's an argument to restore the IC checks and balances, and resulting uncertainty/conflict/paranoia, that the game is designed on.

Too late we're already there. People can't stand losing the game and ahelp out instead of calling a lawyer to get their IC case dismissed because lawyers are basically sec clowns who run around annoying people with jargon & laser pointers looking to get antag converted or otherwise dunked horribly.

> Sympathetic admins who step in too much
> "Get a lawyer" should be a admin clause for dismissing all but indefensible sec complaints, can be sorted out IC reasonably for sec to just let you go if they treated you shittily
> Sec can't do their job in validhunting (mostly that's it since they dont do any other kind of civil service beside RP'ing breaks & relaxing time taking a coffee)

Saegrimr's approach only works if we had a bottomless barrel of warm bodies to burn through, as the same issues of stagnation will occur, as only veteran laid back sec players who rarely do anything to agigate the rules (by doing nothing at all except call meta-friend favours/meme their ego up) will just sit in the same sec roles every round.

> We need to protect sec as much as we protect players, people forget that not only admins play sec.

[Saegrimr]

>Get a lawyer
Good one.
Lawyers already get tazed and dragged out of the brig for being in the brig.

[Davidchan]

>We need to protect our players as much as we protect sec

FTFY

[Incomptinence]

So double protection for sec-players then?

[SHTC]

I always play as a Sec Officer if I late join and I see a lack of security. The issues I run into could make players see me as a shit sec officer because they are doing shit that literally is done to piss off sec players and purposely make their rounds awful. I've seen assistants, engineers, scientists, chemists, you name the job breaking into Security for no reason other than hur dur fuck da police. I've seen them disarm officers trying to arrest criminals then complain for nearly 5 minutes that the didndu nuffin. It's difficult when you have people that are being shits on extended for no reason at all. The round can turn out to be operatives and you have 10 shits trying to break in from roundstart.How can security not be impossible to deal with IC when security has to deal with people trying to shit on them for being security and the occasional shitty warden/hos/other officer.

[Armhulen]

I always play as a Sec Officer if I late join and I see a lack of security. The issues I run into could make players see me as a shit sec officer because they are doing shit that literally is done to piss off sec players and purposely make their rounds awful. I've seen assistants, engineers, scientists, chemists, you name the job breaking into Security for no reason other than hur dur fuck da police. I've seen them disarm officers trying to arrest criminals then complain for nearly 5 minutes that the didndu nuffin. It's difficult when you have people that are being shits on extended for no reason at all. The round can turn out to be operatives and you have 10 shits trying to break in from roundstart.How can security not be impossible to deal with IC when security has to deal with people trying to shit on them for being security and the occasional shitty warden/hos/other officer.

Can we ban the fwoosh alt? this isn't word for word but my god it's moonlighting 2

[FantasticFwoosh]

>Get a lawyer
Good one.
Lawyers already get tazed and dragged out of the brig for being in the brig.

Yeah, that's because Lawyers are given fuckall relevant work to do. If the admins just memo a lawyer by sending them a fax (reverse prayer that spits out a Nanotren High Court case order) or otherwise directing players to seek a lawyer they might gain a little bit of credibility, and sec better start being careful what they are doing with the lawyer looking over their shoulder.

> Fax - A paper reliant comms console with direct access to admins, ejects paper & accepts paper reports, you'd have to get on the phone to coderbus regarding how to properly format paper memo's. As well as providing admins with a beaurocracy toolset/handguide if required.

Admins don't need to ambulance chase dindu-nuffin's on every case (wasting their time & other people's time), if the lawyer & the det can work together to get a picture of events you could deal with this IC and if the IC punishment is dealt out, just leave it at that.

So double protection for sec-players then?

At least try to balance it to a comfortable compromise even if it means reducing protection for both.

[SHTC]

I always play as a Sec Officer if I late join and I see a lack of security. The issues I run into could make players see me as a shit sec officer because they are doing shit that literally is done to piss off sec players and purposely make their rounds awful. I've seen assistants, engineers, scientists, chemists, you name the job breaking into Security for no reason other than hur dur fuck da police. I've seen them disarm officers trying to arrest criminals then complain for nearly 5 minutes that the didndu nuffin. It's difficult when you have people that are being shits on extended for no reason at all. The round can turn out to be operatives and you have 10 shits trying to break in from roundstart.How can security not be impossible to deal with IC when security has to deal with people trying to shit on them for being security and the occasional shitty warden/hos/other officer.

Can we ban the fwoosh alt? this isn't word for word but my god it's moonlighting 2

Boyo isn't he an alt of me then. I joined April 2015 he joined May 2015

[Armhulen]

fwooshposting!

[TheColdTurtle]

>tfw legit complaints and statements are dismissed because of the poster or that they write more than 3 sentences

[factoryman942]

What if you re-enable sec antag
but make it so they're far, far less likely to be antag than any other job is?

[Incomptinence]

Sec was less likely to be antag originally because many antag types were incompatible even back then.

[Armhulen]

>tfw legit complaints and statements are dismissed because of the poster or that they write more than 3 sentences

they are legit, i just liked the similarities between this and moonlighting thing, that's all
now i just feel bad

[Lumbermancer]

>Get a lawyer
Good one.
Lawyers already get tazed and dragged out of the brig for being in the brig.

No one gives a fuck about lawyers until they interfere with brig procedures or enter perma without approval. Not even a week ago we had a cool court proceeding on Bagil: Caveman Unga v Detective. If people are not shit fun can be had.

[CPTANT]

>Get a lawyer
Good one.
Lawyers already get tazed and dragged out of the brig for being in the brig.

No one gives a fuck about lawyers until they interfere with brig procedures or enter perma without approval. Not even a week ago we had a cool court proceeding on Bagil: Caveman Unga v Detective. If people are not shit fun can be had.

Trials happen in like what? 2% of rounds?

[Davidchan]

That's a pretty high % unless you are counting a trial as a security officer asking the accused if they did a crime.

[Cobby]

The question is how do we give lawyers the ability to stop shitsec without giving them the ability to use said equipment to be shitsec+?

[Atlanta-Ned]

The question is how do we give lawyers the ability to stop shitsec without giving them the ability to use said equipment to be shitsec+?

See also: The IAA role that was proposed earlier.

[Lumbermancer]

The question is how do we give lawyers the ability to stop shitsec without giving them the ability to use said equipment to be shitsec+?

More rp admins interacting with players.

[oranges]

Yeah, this really has to come from the admins, there's no other solutions that really fit - they can ignore most other people because they have some of the best roundstart gear.

[ThanatosRa]

What if you re-enable sec antag
but make it so they're far, far less likely to be antag than any other job is?

Sec was less likely to be antag originally because many antag types were incompatible even back then.

A thought I had was maybe sec antag should be able to be enabled and disabled at will, and changed randomly to enforce the paranoia without allowing enough time for a new meta to settle in.

[tedward1337]

If sec antag should make a comeback, I think they should be limited to traitor and DA.

[Armhulen]

ted is right i would NOT like officer ling.

[FantasticFwoosh]

The question is how do we give lawyers the ability to stop shitsec without giving them the ability to use said equipment to be shitsec+?

More rp admins interacting with players.

I touched upon the idea of the admins posing as Nanotren Federal Court or something along those lines to make the lawyer on the station a sort of middleman a few posts ago.

Admins : Get a lawyer - *Immediately jumps to lawyer office & posts a memo of a case in progress with as much or little details as possible*

Though then we have to argue whether it is a lesser of two evils to have a degree of meta-knowledge in dealing with IC events like this or should the laywer even be notified if assistant X is murdered in maint by a non-antag. To which it sounds like if you're going down that route, it'd require plugging a line to the det, so that the lawyer doesn't act shit and try to do the det's job or go all daredevil on you.

[Lumbermancer]

When was the last time you messaged centcom and triggered admin ran event? rip HBL.

[Atlanta-Ned]

When was the last time you messaged centcom and triggered admin ran event? rip HBL.

90% of requests these days are just asshole captains asking if they can kill all the lizards.

[CPTANT]

When was the last time you messaged centcom and triggered admin ran event? rip HBL.

90% of requests these days are just asshole captains asking if they can kill all the lizards.

They can, right?

[PKPenguin321]

No

[bandit]

The question is how do we give lawyers the ability to stop shitsec without giving them the ability to use said equipment to be shitsec+?

More rp admins interacting with players.

I touched upon the idea of the admins posing as Nanotren Federal Court or something along those lines to make the lawyer on the station a sort of middleman a few posts ago.

Admins : Get a lawyer - *Immediately jumps to lawyer office & posts a memo of a case in progress with as much or little details as possible*

Though then we have to argue whether it is a lesser of two evils to have a degree of meta-knowledge in dealing with IC events like this or should the laywer even be notified if assistant X is murdered in maint by a non-antag. To which it sounds like if you're going down that route, it'd require plugging a line to the det, so that the lawyer doesn't act shit and try to do the det's job or go all daredevil on you.

I mean admins are basically the new lawyers as it is

[FantasticFwoosh]

I mean admins are basically the new lawyers as it is

(Some) are crooked as shit to boot, and will try to hitch you up on tiny clauses to push forward their own interests of winning a case.

Yep, definitely.

[Rockdtben]

• When someone is arrested and in process to the brig why is then that people decide to communicate with security?
• Why during the most sensitive period of an arrest?
• Why at the front gates of the brig do idiots always rush into security when they know it is a no no zone?

[Saegrimr]

• When someone is arrested and in process to the brig why is then that people decide to communicate with security?

There is no other time.
The other times are you getting tazed, cuffed, and dragged into the brig. There is no discussion in the hallways before being tazed because they'll just tell you to fuck off and run. There is no discussion after being tazed and cuffed, because that just leads to other people fucking with them and trying to save the guy. There is no discussion while being dragged towards security because they're too busy navigating back and your words are incomprehensible stutters at a glance.

IF security is going to even bother questioning you, they're going to do it where they're not completely exposed. Just how it is.

[J_Madison]

• When someone is arrested and in process to the brig why is then that people decide to communicate with security?
• Why during the most sensitive period of an arrest?
• Why at the front gates of the brig do idiots always rush into security when they know it is a no no zone?

Sudden rush and urge to use any and all options to verbally prevent the arrest.
In my experience it's usually to avoid a search or something else that might lead to a bigger sentance.
Punishments aren't punishing enough - they'll try to escalate the dispute, ahelp, or ghost/alttab/quit once they've well and truly become punished.

edit: and general desire to waste sec time/get a reaction out of sec/distract and belittle sec.

[Davidchan]

How is sec doing their job wasting their time? Its not like doctors are just allowed to randomly yank people out of the hallway to do random amputations and implants.

[Screemonster]

How is sec doing their job wasting their time? Its not like doctors are just allowed to randomly yank people out of the hallway to do random amputations and implants.

If you're gonna consider general tiding shittery to be "giving the sec players something to do", then the medbay equivalent would be someone beating their own face in with a crowbar then calling the doctors shit for not treating them promptly, or people who were actually killed by traitors getting salty at the doctors for not treating them on account of having their hands full with shitters who just beat their faces in with crowbars.

[Whoisthere]

What is the appropriate response when security attacks you/abuses you/arrests you FNR for 20 minutes?

Adminhelping about cell times or false arrests is generally "IC issue," but retaliating violently will get you banned. If you retaliate non violently they'll "escalate" to murdering you or permabrigging you. They're allowed to break into anywhere they want, take what they want, etc. Nobody IC will care because everyone knows they can't be antagonists.

Is there an appropriate response other than rolling over and dying/letting the guy mess with your round?

And no this isn't just about that recent ban appeal, this has been something that's been bothering me for a while. We have a class of player who is more or less rules free yet it's bannable to retaliate or protect yourself.

Hold sec accountable and force them to observe space law. If they don't, they get secbanned. Make setting people to "wanted" REQUIRE typing in a reason, and make it log. Do not allow sec to have an un-wanted person detained for more than one minute. Detention counts from the moment of arrest (?). Unless the items are explicitly stated to be contraband in the space law, they are not to be taken. Taking them is grounds for sec ban. Losing prisoner's shit is grounds for sec ban.

So:
X broke into janitor's, stole soap, and killed a man, officer Y stumbles upon X, arrests them, throws them into brig, warden is obliged to release them after a minute because no wanted status/reason are given, if they don't, they get secbanned.

I don't see any other solutions because once you're cuffed chances are you can't do anything to remedy the situation until sec lets you go by their own decision. You only have verbal means of influencing sec, and they're not likely to listen. You can try to exact revenge later, but that'll just cause more salt.

So basically, clear rules for sec, sec bans if they don't follow those rules.

[imblyings]

That's not how security plays out in game and most players and admins would balk at the idea of security releasing a possible murderer or maintaining impeccable standards during difficult times under threat of bans.

Instead, one solution is a thread with an index listing of reasons/circumstantial information regarding security bans. Admins would post, at their discretion, ban reasons or ban precedents that come up for different situations. This would inform and standardize what the community thinks is acceptable for security to do. Admins could also post about situations where behaviour warrants a note or warning, or bans if the player repeats themselves.

It's a bit of busywork but with maintenance and habit it would work.

[Lumbermancer]

Hold sec accountable and force them to observe space law.

Space Law is a taboo and won't ever become anything more than a RP guideline.

[Whoisthere]

I don't get why Space Law is taboo to be honest. My only gripe with sec is that I've no idea what to expect after any given transgression. One time you kill the captain and get five minutes, other time you break into his office to steal donuts and get perma.

[TheColdTurtle]

Sec is way too kill happy. So last night it was a Ling round, and gene ball made a FUCKING MEME VIRUS AGAIN GENE I SWEAR TO GOD, and disguised as mekhi and sprayed me with a virus ascan mekhi. So naturally I say over sec comms get mekhi right? Then I go to medbay and eventually fall into critical, and the Ling walks up to me and changes directly into me and starts to drag my body away. Mekhi the real one comes up and tries to help me and drag my body away, but sec then tried to stun him instead, leaving me to the ling. Mekhi eventually goes back to rnd and sec finds himself there and arrest and nearly kill him, while they don't even know why he was set to wanted.

[Lumbermancer]

I don't get why Space Law is taboo to be honest.

Nobody really remembers arguments made in a vote process 4 years ago.

[Saegrimr]

Or how about when HG just straight up deleted all mention of space law in the wiki

[imblyings]

because space law is shit

Autists will abuse it, this is an argument, some of our most notorious sec players played everything seemingly by the book and got banned for it in the end because it is abusable.

It is abusable because you can stack on offences. It is abusable because there is no requirement to take into consideration context and the human factor. If admins banned using an OOC space law guide, the players would rebel. Admins have to instead pick up on context, different points of view, and draw from years of experience to make one judgement call because when they ban they dick over someone and it has to be the right call. It's a joke to think after this that security can dick over people because a static guide says its ok.

Of course, there is no guarantee security won't have a reasonable human player making the call but there is never a guarantee that there is. So instead of leaving a possible avenue of abuse open, it gets taken away. Because there will always be, no matter how many innocent trying-their-best-to-be-goodcurity officers there are, shitsec here.

[Lumbermancer]

some of our most notorious sec players played everything seemingly by the book and got banned for it in the end because it is abusable.

Name three of them.

[J_Madison]

Repukan, Tornadium, one other.

[Atlanta-Ned]

Repukan, Tornadium, one other.

You should find better examples, because those suck.

[imblyings]

some of our most notorious sec players played everything seemingly by the book and got banned for it in the end because it is abusable.

Name three of them.

you get one (1) for free from me(e) to make three and its cbd(ee)

rhymes just like

Spoiler:

poetr(ee)