You have been jobbanned by shadowlight213 from: AI, Cyborg.
The reason is: Rounstart bolting and depowering of AI core. Upon being told to cease doing this by admins, they proceeded to attempt to rules lawyer.
You have been banned by shadowlight213.
Reason: Rounstart bolting and depowering of AI core. Upon being told to cease doing this by admins, they proceeded to attempt to rules lawyer.
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.
10/3/2015 20:24 server time.
Look I am fine with you deciding on core depowering being acceptable or not (on which there simply is no policy currently) and I am fine with not doing it if it is deemed unacceptable. But the accusation of rules lawyering is completely insulting. I am asking for clarification on the issue and I am completely polite, yet I am treated like some pest. It is complete nonsense that I am supposedly not allowed to defend my actions, nor ask on clarification of the issue. If I am not allowed to state my side of the story why am I contacted in the first place. Why would you state that you do not want to continue a conversation but follow it up with new points yourself, only to grab to a ban when the other party responds to that statement?
If you want to wrap up a conversation you can just say so instead of grabbing to a means of power.
logs:
Spoiler:
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Hey, got a second?
PM to-Admins: yes
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Can I ask why you had your airlocks bolted and depowered at round tart?
PM to-Admins: according to the rules I can bolt my core
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: You're allowed to bolt it, but not depower the airlocks withou treason
PM to-Admins: why not it serves the same purpose as bolting
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Depowered airlocks are impossible to open without an RCD
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Depowered bolted Airlocks I mean
PM to-Admins: that is correct, if someone wants access to my core they will have to ask
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: It also fucks over any antag borgs.
PM to-Admins: Ohw and them walking into the core without any way for me to stop them does not fuck me over?
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: While you can just bolt your core airlocks, at roundstart, depowring them without any reason is considered metagaming. If you have reason to believe there IS a rogue borg, THEN you can depower them
PM to-Admins: nonsense you could apply to same to any bolting action.
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Yes, you can apply the same to any bolting and depowering
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Bolts can be hacked open with a multitool
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Bolted and depowered airlocks can ONLY be removed with an RCD
PM to-Admins: so I have to purpusfully allow a weakness into my core? that is a direct violation of my self preservation law
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Server rules come before your laws
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: You need to have a reason to bolt depower
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: The rules allowing you to bolt, ONLY mention bolting
PM to-Admins: correct, disabling power is not mentioned anywhere in the rules
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: It's meta powergaming. You're basically saying I'm assuming its ops with no reason to
PM to-Admins: not at all. bolting any door states "ohw someone is going to break in here with ill intent" with no reason
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Rules lawyering is not welcome here.
PM to-Admins: I am not rule lawyering I am asking what differentiates the 2 cases
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: One method is a specific meta tactic against ops.
PM to-Admins: not at all, it disallows many form of core breaching, such as suberted borgs or engineering trying to breach the core
Admin PM from-Shadowlight213: Headmins have already agreed on this ruling. as you are continuing to rules lawyer, you are not welcome
You have been jobbanned by shadowlight213 from: AI, Cyborg.
The reason is: Rounstart bolting and depowering of AI core. Upon being told to cease doing this by admins, they proceeded to attempt to rules lawyer.
You have been banned by shadowlight213.
Reason: Rounstart bolting and depowering of AI core. Upon being told to cease doing this by admins, they proceeded to attempt to rules lawyer.
Jobban can be lifted only upon request.
Last edited by CPTANT on Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I had asked in asay and received responses from the other admins online, including lollerderby, that bolt depowering the core was considered metagaming and powergaming.
You did indeed ask for clarification on the issue, and I did respond to the best of my ability. It honestly is more of a rule one issue. Doing something at round start that is a hard counter to an antag type that is attempting stealth is being a dick. The AI core and upload are the only exceptions to the don't bolt stuff without probable cause rule, and bolt depowering is stretching that exception as far as it can go.
Bolting =/= Bolting and depowering. Doing the latter is a very hard counter to syndie borgs in nuke ops. So unless you had reason to believe it was ops, then there was no reason to bolt and depower. It is very much metagaming.
Aliannera wrote:Bolting =/= Bolting and depowering. Doing the latter is a very hard counter to syndie borgs in nuke ops. So unless you had reason to believe it was ops, then there was no reason to bolt and depower. It is very much metagaming.
I have already answered to this in the logs and I would like to add that this super hard counter is solved by a single block of c4.
But thats not really the point, I am fine with not depowering if that is to be the rules. I object to being cucked extra hard for just giving my point of view on the matter.
Bolting is strictly allowed in the rules - ie: it is an exception to the metagaming rule.
As you yourself said, depowering the airlock is not. This doesn't mean that's it's ok to do and not against the rules, since the admin clearly told you it falls under metagaming.
It's extremely unreason to expect the rules to have explicit ruling on every possible fucking action.
lumipharon wrote:Bolting is strictly allowed in the rules - ie: it is an exception to the metagaming rule.
As you yourself said, depowering the airlock is not. This doesn't mean that's it's ok to do and not against the rules, since the admin clearly told you it falls under metagaming.
It's extremely unreason to expect the rules to have explicit ruling on every possible fucking action.
Can we please have this discussion when I am not forced to argue from a position of weakness?
lumipharon wrote:Bolting is strictly allowed in the rules - ie: it is an exception to the metagaming rule.
As you yourself said, depowering the airlock is not. This doesn't mean that's it's ok to do and not against the rules, since the admin clearly told you it falls under metagaming.
It's extremely unreason to expect the rules to have explicit ruling on every possible fucking action.
Can we please have this discussion when I am not forced to argue from a position of weakness?
It's not a discussion though, it's extremely clear cut.
Silicons & All Other Server Policies
>All other rules and policies apply unless stated otherwise.
>The core and upload may be bolted without prompting or prior reason.
You are only allowed to bolt the core because it's explicitly stated as an exception. Especially after the admins explain it to you, it's pretty clear.
When you want to argue with admins about this sort of shit, it's always better to do as they say, THEN argue.
CPTANT wrote:Can we please have this discussion when I am not forced to argue from a position of weakness?
The hell is this even supposed to mean?
You want to give the impression that me freely discussing my viewpoint will not effect the outcome of this ban appeal? Every single time I have seen someone argue about policy in a ban appeal he was discarded as a shitter not willing to follow the rules.
I have already said I am more than willing to adhere to the rules. I am also more than willing to discuss the policy in a setting that will not result me in staying banned or getting another ban on top for disagreeing with it.
You are only allowed to bolt the core because it's explicitly stated as an exception. Especially after the admins explain it to you, it's pretty clear.
When you want to argue with admins about this sort of shit, it's always better to do as they say, THEN argue
You're depowering the core because you know it cucks syndiborgs, that's why it's bad. You are taking a measure at roundstart entirely to fuck with an antag. This is on the level of taking the AI upload boards, cutting off plasma tanks in atmos and spacing the toxins valves.
The only practical application of what you're doing is to fuck over an antag.
I'm not sure why securing the core to stop yourself getting instantly killed is really that bad.
Yeah it cucks syndie borgs but the other option is die and hope you notice yourself about to die and shout a message out, because otherwise you literally cannot stop it.
Would having your round start borg go engie and wall yourself off be any better? That fucks with syndie borgs.
Tornadium wrote:I'm not sure why securing the core to stop yourself getting instantly killed is really that bad.
Yeah it cucks syndie borgs but the other option is die and hope you notice yourself about to die and shout a message out, because otherwise you literally cannot stop it.
Would having your round start borg go engie and wall yourself off be any better? That fucks with syndie borgs.
You never answered me why you wouldn't just unwrench the plasma-to-mix pipe at roundstart.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
The following is all opinion and is in no way of impact on my willingness to follow the rules.
First of all unwrenching plasma or spacing valves interferes with the station in a disruptive way. Keeping the Core door shut does not.
Second bolting core doors is stated as an exception to powergaming rules. The notion that that does not mean you can not effectively keep that thing shut is not as super dooper obvious as some people would like to make it out to be.
It is treated like this is some super counter specific to ops borgs, it is not. Any borg or idiot with a multitool can just break open the door. Regularly captains don't care shit about asking an ai to access upload and just multitool the door and upload whatever they want, the same goes for the core.
It is also treated like the only thing that nuke ops can do is send a syndicate borg to the core to abuse the fact that turrets don't fire at syndiborgs (which is retarded to begin with). A single block of c-4 fixes this supposedly super hardcore nuke ops counter. In fact the instance this occurred in had an entire Ops team standing in the core all too unrobust to place a single stick of c-4. Expecting people to just get cucked by a completely uncounterable threat is frankly just stupid. And calling the only thing that has even a remote change of stopping that completely uncounterable kill powergaming even more so.
But I have learned my lesson. I will in the future not interpret a rule stating I am allowed to bolt a door as a green-light to actual keep that door effectively shut.
I will just keep it open and get cucked by whatever borg or other threat that wants a completely non opposable AI kill.
Tornadium wrote:I'm not sure why securing the core to stop yourself getting instantly killed is really that bad.
Yeah it cucks syndie borgs but the other option is die and hope you notice yourself about to die and shout a message out, because otherwise you literally cannot stop it.
Would having your round start borg go engie and wall yourself off be any better? That fucks with syndie borgs.
You never answered me why you wouldn't just unwrench the plasma-to-mix pipe at roundstart.
I never answered because your question was fucking stupid.
They are two completely separate things, on separate locations of the station.
One stops you getting instantly killed without any possible counter, the other makes interaction with Atmospherics for the AI slightly more difficult.
Saegrimr wrote:Why would you not just unwrench the plasma-to-mix pipe at roundstart?
People do it all the time, why wouldn't they? The fact that it can be used to burn the station to the ground is not meta knowledge, it's how atmos operates.
Lumbermancer wrote:People do it all the time, why wouldn't they?
And every time an AI or someone ahelps when they see it they get banned. It's not even some vague interpretation, this is specifically stated to not do so in the rules.
- Atmos techs are not allowed to edit atmos at roundstart so that the AI cannot use it for malicious purposes. While this might not make sense IC, it's a necessary OOC precedent for some game mechanics to work. Atmos techs are allowed if they have any reasonable suspicion of the AI being rogue.
tedward1337 wrote:Sae is like the racist grandad who everyone laughs at for being racist, but deep down we all know he's right.
Shadow had a talk with me in irc, while rules lawyering in ahelps is honestly a fucking pain to deal with, a dayban and jobban for it after already complying is an overreaction, not to mention this rule technically being unwritten. Like the rule Saeg brought up, it's one of those things that really do make sense IC but we just don't allow because of OOC game mechanics.
This precedent however will be added and enforced like any other precedent- we don't expect you to read the fuckhuge list of precedents but if we've warned you once that's the only guaranteed warning you will get.
edit forgot to mention your notes/jobban will be lifted. Just remember the precedent m8
The patched, dusty, trimmed, feathered mantle of evil +13.
