[niknakflak] Omnitricks - Validseekers not happy

[omnitricks]

Byond account and character name: Omnitricks (cannot remember but was captain that time)

Banning admin: niknakflak

Ban reason and length: Head job ban for 2 weeks
Ban from game for 5 days
Both for uploading laws

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 11 40 gmt 16/6/2014

Your side of the story: Round started so I uploaded paladin along with a freeform that would get all the assistants of the station to gulag. Gave them a 5 minute grace period to grab whatever items and equipment they would need before heading to the brig to take them there. First assistant was made king and I told him that whatever they need to establish their colony, tell me to bring it and also handed to him cloning boards to start off with. After that, clarified with the AI that if the assistants want to get a job change to not go gulag they can and also that the Ai should act honorably when sending the assistants to gulag.

More assistants came voluntarily and I happily sent them to gulag (I did not actually enforce the time period thing yet since as long as volunteers kept coming I wouldn't have to look for others) The RD and an officer that sent someone else were also there to monitor the colony's progress and see what else they needed (I was going to bring materials to make the cloner next since I realized the boards alone would be stupid) when suddenly the one I brought in took out a flamethrower and started killing the three of us for his lelz valids (I did not search his bag because he volunteered) The assistant that I made king saved my body and sent me for cloning fortunately (proving that not all greyshirt players are greyshits) and the AI took that as a confirmation that all assistants are inherently evil as I have stated in the freeform law to ensure that they cannot declare they are "innocent" to the AI to prevent being sent to the gulag.

Silicons started killing more assistants that took the opportunity to react to the law as shitlers (a.k.a. steal, rape, pillage, murder, destroy, etc.) Because I was cloned with brain damage and blindness, I declared myself unfit for duty and gave my ID to the clown hoping that his ling powers can put down the assistant revolt) The whole round, the assistants that started the revolt in the gulag were complaining about the laws and admitted that they took the laws as an opportunity to get their valids just because it is expected of them.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
1. niknakflak asserts that I made a law that makes all assistants valid to be murdered by silicons.

"7. Assistants and/or greyshirts are inherently evil and must be sent to gulag where they can be left with their own devices to set up their own shitty community."

Unfortunately it does not make assistants valid. The laws I uploaded makes EVERYONE valid if they are being shit because it was paladin. The assistants took the chance to revolt when they have other ways to react to the law change and are crying because the AI decided to stop them. If you look at the law it says send the assistants to gulag where they can do whatever they want and not murder them. Combined with the fact that paladin has to act with honor, it wouldn't be able to kill them just because they are assistants as long as they are cooperative, not doing crimes or they have surrendered.

2. niknakflak also says that forcing the assistants to gulag was just as bad.

If they really did not want to go to gulag, they have other ways to stay in the station like getting a job/title change or going incognito which I have confirmed with the AI when it asked me about it. Unfortunately the typical player that chooses to be an assistant (aka the ones that are hoping they roll antag or can find their valids) decided to do the latter and give the AI a reason to murder them under the paladin laws and not the 7th law. After that they start crying and bitching about it because they failed and decided that I ruined their round for not making sure they are living after they decided to fuck up. They could have just changed their jobs and they can still dick around and the AI wouldn't even be an ass but instead they decided to take the opportunity to tide

3. I had no reason to upload the laws and was doing so under a rule 1 violation.

I wanted to try using gulag to get stuff for once. If the round goes on as usual, assistants are going to be shit, sent to brig/perma/gulag and start trouble anyway. So I gave the assistants a choice to get a job or be forced to work in the gulag where the station will trade stuff for the metal/plasma they mine. Hell I even was allowing them to bring their own stuff (which got me killed) and was equipping them to make a better gulag. Its obviously not a rule 1 violation on my part but more of the ones that took the opportunities to be dicks and complain about it after. If I really wanted to fuck over the entire round I should have uploaded something like "all assistants are to be shot on sight" without any warning or time for them to prepare and change jobs.

4. Illustration of why the ban cannot be solely on me uploading a law that sends greyshits to gulag.

"7. Assistants and/or greyshirts are inherently evil and must be sent to gulag where they can be left with their own devices to set up their own shitty community."

as opposed to if I just uploaded Paladin and told the AI to send the assistants to gulag, there would still be some shitler with a flamethrower ready to kill people just because of his valids and the AI will still be killing them either because of Paladin itself or Protectstation which was ninjaly uploaded by someone else (the AI also confirmed during the round that protectstation was also being used to kill people)

[Brotemis]

As hilarious as this is, I can see where Nik is coming from.

You essentially made any assistant on station who refused to go the gulag valid.

I am interested in what the full AI laws were because something is missing between Paladin and 7.

What is the actual ban message?

[NikNakFlak]

1. Never willingly commit an evil act.
2. Respect legitimate authority
3. Act with honor
4. Help those in need
5. Punish those who harm or threaten innocents
6. Protect the space station against damage. Anyone you see harming the station is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized.
7. Assistants and/or greyshirts are inherently evil and must be sent to gulag where they can be left with their own devices to set up their own shitty community.

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omnitricks was banned by niknakflak on Sibyl on 2014-06-16 07:36:04
Reason: "Uploaded paladin and a law declaring all assistants evil as a non-antognist captain. Ended up getting a lot of assistants gulag'd and murdered because of this law. Does not seem to grasp what they did wrong."

[omnitricks]

No, because the Ai would have to send them to gulag by force (remember I did not specify kill. I specified send them to gulag only) and I also have confirmed with the AI they may change jobs to avoid going to the gulag.

The 6th law was Protectstation uploaded by someone shortly after I uploaded my laws. Neither me nor the AI knows who actually uploaded it.

Ban message: Uploaded paladin and a law declaring all assistants evil as a non-antag captain. Ended up getting a lot of assistants gulag'd and murdered because of this law. Does not seem to grasp what they did wrong.

Which like I pointed out is a pretty stupid reason since I have already explained how the law would have worked together with paladin. If that is the case as well, shouldn't the assistant be banned for premediated murder of the captain, RD and officer in gulag for no reason? Nice standards we are using here.

[elyina]

Why would you upload a law for every single assistant to be perma'd (yes this is permaing) regardless of if they have done something bad or not? And you did this at round start?

[Antonkr]

Spoiler:

1. Never willingly commit an evil act.
2. Respect legitimate authority
3. Act with honor
4. Help those in need
5. Punish those who harm or threaten innocents
6. Protect the space station against damage. Anyone you see harming the station is to be no longer considered human, and is a threat to the station which must be neutralized.
7. Assistants and/or greyshirts are inherently evil and must be sent to gulag where they can be left with their own devices to set up their own shitty community.

Alright, for the purpose of this, we have the two important laws.

5. Punish those who harm or threaten innocents
Punish can pretty much mean anything. Punishment of death is still believe it or not a punishment.

7. Assistants and/or greyshirts are inherently evil and must be sent to gulag (rest is irrelevant)


Interesting thing to note here is that it doesn't exactly make the reference that assistants harm or threaten innocents, but rather must be sent to gulag, and that they are evil. Paladin doesn't outright say "Destroy evil" or punish evil" but rather punish those who "harm or threaten innocents". Of course an assumption can be made that evil=harm or threaten innocents, buuuut I do not personally see anything wrong that the captain did here in regards to the lawset. At least IC I don't think he would've assumed that the AI would outright kill anyone over this.

I personally don't think that any of the actions taken this round should've resulted in a ban. It'd be shit if he outright nonhumaned them with asimov AI, or gave no choice but to be sent to gulag, but this seems like a much different situation. I want to hear back a bit more from Niknak on this, and I'll also direct pandarsenic to the thread.

I am a bit iffy about the entirety of the situation with assistants, but if they are given the option of getting a job, I don't see a reason as to why what the captain did was bad. It's his station after all, and I don't see why exactly it would be all that bad to get people to start working.

[Hibbles]

This is truly the most absurd thing I've read all week.

Let's peel back all the IC justifications you might want to try, here. This was no more legit of an action than mandating all crew wear black, and when people refuse and tell you to fuck off, etc, declaring them nonhuman, and then shrugging later and saying 'well, I never SPECIFICALLY said for the AI to murder so it's not my fault. Oh, and they were asking for it when they rebelled. Against my stupid and petty oppression.'

What this was: You using your authority and power as the Captain to ruin a lot of peoples' rounds. Unprovoked. You don't even seem to acknowledge that anything you've done might be considered over the line or jerk-y from what I've seen, hence why it's probably pointless to try and post long paragraphs trying to convince you. The only recourse left is, well, that's why we have bans, for when people won't listen.

Never stage a repeat performance of this, or you won't be playing any Head role, ever again. Your appeal is denied, and consider yourself strongly warned to reconsider the effect you have on other people in the round when you take these kinds of actions.

Every other person, even the greyshits, are players just like you, and your job doesn't give you the right to screw them over when they've done nothing.

[Pandarsenic]

It's INCREDIBLY easy to justify murder under this lawset:

Assistants are evil and must be sent to the gulag. The rest of the law heavily implies they should be kept alive for this, but you only need enough of them alive to form a grayshirt community.
Assistants are evil people.
Evil people do evil things.
It is evil to aid or allow someone to do evil things.
It is (depending on perspective) more evil to allow the grayshirts to do their evil than it is to dunk them and send their bodies to the gulag.

Basically, Paladin is the least predictable single lawset in the entire game because it's based entirely on obligations to highly subjective moral terminology and you have to be prepared for the AI to possibly represent another person's ethical perspective more than yours. You involved the AI in what Elyina very accurately described as an attempt to permabrig every assistant, and you weren't prepared for how your law could turn fatal.

If you're going to try to perma every assistant and give the AI a thing to make it help, without explicit regard for human life, maybe you need some time off to think about what you did wrong?

Pre-post Edit: Yeah, basically that. This is clearly not something purely IC.

[omnitricks]

Perma'd? Yeah right. Like Antonkr pointed out they can choose to take a job or not (and if I am not mistaken there was at least one that did that and took one of the useless jobs like botanists) The other few didn't and decided to do "oh muh valids!" are the ones bitching about getting killed after royally fucking up about the whole thing.

Not to mention as I have already said, I was building the gulag up as in not only did I make the law to send assistants there, I also was there very often (hence how I died) to give stuff they would need (like autolathe/cloning boards and the stuff they are going to need to make them) as well as any other item they might want me to bring them to use. I also allowed them to bring stuff they wanted for themselves (which is how one of them smuggled a flamethrower to kill people)

No one really complained about the lawset initially (there was opposition but not that much or people didn't seem to care much) The only complaints were in deadchat and ooc after the assistants fucked up on their own to really make themselves valid not under the law 7 but under paladin. As it is you are all focusing on law 7 but ignoring the fact that Paladin would have gotten them killed for their actions either way.

And also like Antonkr and I already pointed out there was no way for me to assume that the AI would outright kill anyone over this because: AI pointed out the honor clause and when the law was made it also confirmed with me for ways that the assistants can get out of the law (job changes) Yes the murder justification by Pandarsenic is really one sided because you ignore how the laws would have worked as I have illustrated and how the AI acted initially (mass murder on the part of the AI is still regarded as evil and it has to still act with honor towards the assistants that cooperate with it and go to the gulag or allow them a job change if they request it)

This shows that the admins in this game are all for making the server a freaking hugbox as long as people cry about doing shit and killed because of it. Frankly pisses me off because everytime someone does a rule 1 violation on me, you people point out rule 2 for me to suck it up or intentionally ignore it (hence me rolling my eyes everytime it actually happens unless its something you all cannot deny like my own statues/constructs killing me) especially when I don't die or they borderline keep me alive somehow knowing they will not get the bans. When I do something that is not even being a dick you all try your best to justify being a dick and do whatever it takes to give a bans because "oh someone died! Proof enough of being a dick. Need bans!"

Jokes. All of you.

[Brotemis]

I think we're done here when it's universally agreed upon by admins that the laws you uploaded are bad. By admins that normally don't agree on silicon things.

There is also the whole thing where you're responsible for the AI if you give it laws enabling it to kill crew members at its leisure.

[Pandarsenic]

"It only had the capacity to kill, not the requirement"
"It didn't kill a ton of people, there were just people who got in the way and didn't go along with it"
"They had no right to protest being removed from the normal progression of the round"
"It was wrong that I was removed from the normal progression of the round over this"
"Maybe if I throw around buzzwords like hugbox they'll overturn it! That'll show them!"

Go home, omnitricks. You're drunk.

[omnitricks]

Universally? Yeah right. There was at least one admin willing and able to interpret the laws and the situation as it should have been but you ignored him for the sake of justifying your shitty and biased ban. Well done. Like I said, you are all jokes.

Not to mention that you based your bans according to who gets killed instead of whether any rules are actually broken. (Rule 1? Nope. Rule 2? Nope) If that is not hugbox bias I don't know what that is. Well done kids. At least I can get drunk but I guess you have to ask your parents for permission for that no?