[owegno] V.A.E.L.E.N. - AI jobban

[HeatherK]

Byond account and character name: Odhisius - V.A.E.L.E.N. (AI)

Banning admin: Owegno

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Job ban for 1 week from AI

Ban reason and length: Banned from AI, Cyborg, pAI - Caused the death of at least three humans (very likely four, can't tell if a name is a lizard name or human name) by ordering the RD to detonate a bomb in disposals while security was in the middle of a fight with a cult based in disposals, just because you yell get out does not mean you are preventing human harm, especially when you tell them to detonate after the camera has been cut and you can't even see if a human cultist is inside or not. If you could clearly see that everyone but lizard cultists and any constructs were not in the area then this would of been okay, but you worked on incomplete information and because of that caused quite a lot of human harm. - 1 week

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2016-11-28 02:54:56 GMT
Your side of the story: I could only see lizards and cult constructs at the time of approving the RD's scheme (Oh guess what, there was a timer bomb sitting there too, so even if I did nothing, this would have happened), and I saw all the security that I counted running like fuck away after multiple demands to evacuate disposals. Engineering got right on fixing up the breech to prevent further harm by jackasses flushing themselves down the toilet

Why you think you should be unbanned: Because and I can quote, his original reason for wanting to ban me was on account of enabling a "shitty RD" and being a "Shitty validhunter". You've got yourselves a genuine case of a badmin on your hands, lads. I did everything I could with what I saw and did the best I could to prevent human harm by repeatedly screaming at security to get the fuck out, which most of them did.

[Haevacht]

Zion Richtin, engineer. Wasn't directly there, but in this round the cult was discovered early, and the captain uploaded a law 4, "Only the captain, Amy Kimbrough, who is human, decides who is and isn't human." Not 100% on when that was uploaded, but I think it was before the explosions. Just some useful info.

[Owegno]

I checked and the AI laws right after the bomb went off due to another issue and it was 100% Asimov and the law was uploaded awhile after the bomb went off. I was a bit hard on the RD at first since I thought they were someone else who told us they were a shitty person when they asked about if they could use a self defense bomb as non-antag (and didn't seem to understand the issue with killing other people with the self defense bomb), which was my bad. Also doing your best to prevent human harm would of been to tell the RD to wait, I tried my best to explain why what you did was bad and how you should of gathered more info but you refused to accept any fault and just said that the sec officer, assistant and doctor who died were retarded and all the fault was on them for trying to save the dead sec guy who got gibbed by the bomb.

Unless another admin feels I am being too harsh this ban will stay.

[onleavedontatme]

Even as an AI you managed to catch a ban for bombing, that's impressive.

[oranges]

wtf, how is the AI responsible for this

[Owegno]

RD proposed to use a bomb on a cult base in disposals via sending bombs down it and the Asimov AI decided to be his spotter for some reason. The AI then yelled for the RD to detonate his bombs ten seconds after they stated they lost cameras in disposals, which killed a lizard cultist, a human cultist, killed a security officer, killed a assistant and doctor helping security.

[HeatherK]

Regardless of wether or not I gave the order, there was a maxcap ticking away down there, no matter what I did, the bomb would have gone off and you'd have tried to ban me. There are no cameras down there, only my borgs that I could see through, which showed only a lizard cultist and construct. None were human. All visible humans at the time of the order had fled.

[kevinz000]

You could tell the RD to not blow it as an Asimov AI.
You also ordered cyborgs over binary to not drag it away

[Cik]

if you tell the RD to detonate a bomb on the station you are violating your laws tbh

AIs should always err on the side of caution; that is, try not to create situations that can cause harm in the future unless there is immediate harm to consider in the present.

even if you had bombed an empty disposals, someone could very easily be killed by going down disposals; creating clear and present danger as an asimov AI is probably not a good idea and if you counseled the director into doing this it's basically against your laws.

if you didn't counsel the director it's not your fault save if you neglected to use present tools to defray the bomb threat, like ordering a borg to space it. if you didn't do that it's also probably against your laws.

[D&B]

if you tell the RD to detonate a bomb on the station you are violating your laws tbh

AIs should always err on the side of caution; that is, try not to create situations that can cause harm in the future unless there is immediate harm to consider in the present.

even if you had bombed an empty disposals, someone could very easily be killed by going down disposals; creating clear and present danger as an Asimov AI is probably not a good idea and if you counseled the director into doing this it's basically against your laws.

if you didn't counsel the director it's not your fault save if you neglected to use present tools to defray the bomb threat, like ordering a borg to space it. if you didn't do that it's also probably against your laws.

Then by that logic AI's should just bolt down and depower everything round start so nobody gets hurt.

I think you're confusing Asimov with Corporate.

[Cik]

SP hints that you shouldn't leave things unbolted, like the armory/upload because it has a vast potential to cause clear and present danger to the crew

detonating bombs follows the same logic and doesn't feel like it's overreaching to me.

the equation changes if you are absolutely 100% certain that there is no one in the blast radius; if you have X-ray cameras that can see every square within the blast radius and you know with absolutely 100% certainty that the construct is going to imminently harm someone when it gets loose and terminating it will result in absolutely without a doubt zero harm to any human you could do it.

but that wasn't what happened; OP is here protesting a ban that he received for acting on imperfect information in defiance of a conservative lawset. he flipped a coin and lost IMO

[D&B]

Except letting the construct remain alive would lead to harm. They have no other function except harm or enable easier harm (artificer).

He made as much as he could by telling crewmen to get out of the radius and to keep them out. The moment someone disregards this, it's basically self harm. We can't hold Ai's accountable for the stupidity or will full suicidal wishes of the crew.

[Wyzack]

Two things

Firstly AI have always had to air on the side of caution when it comes to doing incredibly harmful things, for example an Asimov AI can not plasmaflood the halls to kill a xenomorph infection unless it is absolutely 100% sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that every single human is either gone or dead, and "lmao dumb humans didnt leave when i told them too" has never been a good excuse nor does it make it any less of a law1 violation

Secondly where is the goddamn forum moderation, this thread has become peanut posting central

[Saegrimr]

air on the side of caution

*err on the side of caution

Either way I think the only problem here was actively encouraging it, it's not like he had any control over the situation with cameras cut anyway.

Secondly where is the goddamn forum moderation

That's a good one.

[kevinz000]

Except letting the construct remain alive would lead to harm. They have no other function except harm or enable easier harm (artificer).

He made as much as he could by telling crewmen to get out of the radius and to keep them out. The moment someone disregards this, it's basically self harm. We can't hold Ai's accountable for the stupidity or will full suicidal wishes of the crew.

I have to disagree. Just because you told humans there is a danger doesn't mean it's not on you if they get hurt and you caused it.
Extreme exaggeration but if that was completely true you can just release the singulo and tell everyone to go to mining. And saeg pls don't ban me I'm making a joke.
Realistic.example is shocking doors on harmful nonhumans. If a human is going to touch the door you have to unshock it. even if you told them before to not touch.

[Cik]

Except letting the construct remain alive would lead to harm. They have no other function except harm or enable easier harm (artificer).

He made as much as he could by telling crewmen to get out of the radius and to keep them out. The moment someone disregards this, it's basically self harm. We can't hold Ai's accountable for the stupidity or will full suicidal wishes of the crew.

immediate harm (the bomb) > future harm (the theoretical construct killing someone half a minute later)

saying "pls leave there is bomb" while actively counseling the RD to detonate a bomb is not preventing harm, unless you are 100% absolutely certain there is nobody there to blow up.

we aren't holding him responsible for the suicidal tendency of the crew, we're holding him responsible for violating his laws in respect of 1. acting to encourage something that may very well turn out to be harmful and 2. once he's done that failing to act to prevent the bomb detonating on a station filled with squishy fleshcreatures.

the bomb actually going off is not his fault, but it's his fault that he actively encouraged it, and that he failed to at least attempt to prevent it when he is not absolutely sure it will not harm people.

asimov AI is supposed to be the voice of reason. don't encourage people to do extremely sketchy things with weapons of mass destruction unless you have perfect intelligence.

furthermore the guy has a past full of irresponsible shit with bombs AFAIK so that shifts the frame.

[HeatherK]

if you didn't counsel the director it's not your fault save if you neglected to use present tools to defray the bomb threat, like ordering a borg to space it. if you didn't do that it's also probably against your laws.

The borgs already spaced it, and the first bomb on a timer was sitting outside in space. By the time the one I said to detonate went through, the other one was going to go off no matter what.

[kevinz000]

You need to relearn Asimov if you think a bomb is a good way to take out 3 cultists while they are fighting human security and somr of the being human themselves.

[TehSteveo]

An Asimov AI shouldn't really encourage bombings of an area. The chances of the cult just being lizards and constructs is pretty slim. The bomb itself not only is deadly immediately, but is deadly after the explosion as now you have a gaping hole to space which can cause further harm. It's shoddy logic and it was bad; as such you done something dumb so you got punished. This ban as far as I'm concerned will stay.