akesson - dgl backed by ausops - sec ban for permabrig cmo

[J_Madison]

Byond account and character name: akesson - static
Banning admin: DGL backed by ausops in ahelps

Ban type (What are you banned from?): sec

Ban reason and length:
The reason is: Permabrigged the CMO for having sulfonal and chloral in their hypo, plus a few bottles of some various poisons, and the saw. He had already been brigged and served his sentence (8~ minutes) before this. The CMO made no attempts to attack any members of Security etc with said hypo or any poisons. There was admittedly a clock cult, but the Chaplain was in the brig with holy water, and he later admitted it was due to the fact that he felt they were 'a liability to Security, antagonist status or not'. I apologize, but I do not think this was an acceptable reason to permabrig the CMO the entire round. Take some time off from Security.

This jobban will be lifted in 2880 minutes.

Time ban was placed (including time zone):
2155 GMT

Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil):
basil

Your side of the story:
Dealing with ecapees, average warden.
warden forgets stuff
cmo's baton confiscated.
CMO sentenced then returns
arrested by lawyer
take opportunity to search them

6 bottles of poison; 3 sulfonal, 3 chloral hydrate.
1 hypospray - used cmo pda to scan, chloral and sulf.
1 circular saw.
1 roundstart medkit.
cuffs.
defib

instachem stuns and not implanted.
argues when arrested.
I'm really confused why they have no medical items bar the medkit (roundstart spawned) and they have so much poison/instastun and weapons.
they've clearly shown no intention to play as a conpetent medical or head of staff.
Permabrig them because this is a liability - 1 click and I'm stunned, they could literally kill sec easy peasy with this.

clockcult is called right as I permabrig them.
sec says chaplain is dead and they were running out of implants.
I'm not dealing with this. Warden is missing from brig. he's fine with it.
get given superior orders by HOS to cull any suspected cultists.

permabrig them.
later straightjacket and isolate them because they slipped and attempted to murder a sec officer checking on permabrig.


Why you think you should be unbanned:
Dereliction of duty, gross incomptence as a head of staff, stolen honour (abandoning your job to play as sec or sec like job), 6 bottles of poison and no medical items what so ever, had his baton confiscated, stole the saw from medbay at roundstart as a weapon.

if he was a cultist, I wouldn't be banned.
So it's clear they were non-antag.
So let me ask;
why are you, as a non antag CMO;
doing sec's job.
abandoning your post.
making 6 bottles of poison.
carrying no additional medical items.
stealng the saw to use as a weapon (if you had the whole surgery kit, that's reasonable, but just a saw?)
harassing sec?

I'm sorry I'm only doing my job to protect the station and the crew.

[Qbmax32]

unless something's missing here I really don't see why j_mad copped a ban for arresting someone carrying all sorts of deadly chemicals who then tries to slip and murder a sec officer who came to check up on them. CMO's during cult rounds should report to the brig for an implant then get their medstaff together healing the wounded. not fucking off to make deathchems when there's no real reason to. the fact that you're running around with cuffs, deathchems and shit as a CMO would either tell someone

a) they're a powergaming nerd who doesn't want to do their job
b) they're some sort of antagonist

[J_Madison]

OOC: Darkgenerallord: I'll deal with the appeal later

[Darkgenerallord]

What happened here is pretty simple. The CMO had some stun mixes in their hypo (sulfonal, chloral.) They get brigged for some crimes, serve their sentence. The Warden never takes them off of arrest.

They head into the Brig for some reason, you arrest them due to the wanted status. You perma them over, essentially, having a stunmix in their hypo, a few bottles of what I believe was what was in the hypo, and the circular saw. You found no cultist items on them. They never attempted to use the hypo on Security, you never attempted deconversion, the Warden was not even aware they were permabrigged until I asked them if they knew why they were. You never asked why they were set to wanted, etc. You more or less just ran towards perma after dumping their hypo into them. Both Ausops and I agree that just having poison in your hypo is not enough of a reason to permabrig them over. Powergamey, sure. But an actual permabriggable crime, no.

You said you thought the Chaplain was dead, but you both walked by them multiple times, and they were in the brig deconverting people most of the round. Later on, you admitted it was because you thought they would be a hindrance to Security, antagonist status or not. Again, I do not think having a stunmix in their hypo is enough of a reason to permabrig them over. Unless a headmin tells me otherwise, this is denied.

And finally, just because I said I'm dealing with an appeal later, as in I am currently adminning a round and am busy, does not mean I am intentionally waiting it out until the ban expires.

[Cobby]

Everything you could ever want is in medbay and the CMO typically doesn't go searching for bodies so it makes sense they don't have a lot of medicine on them.

Also I think it's a bit silly to say the CMO is acting poorly for trying to kill people that put him/her in indefinite brigging when they made no move previously to attack anyone (allegedly). If you were scared of the instant stun just take the hypo...

[J_Madison]

you aren't getting this. and you're ignoring the elephant in the room

why are you, as a non antag CMO;
doing sec's job.
abandoning your post.
making 6 bottles of poison.
carrying no additional medical items.
stealng the saw to use as a weapon (if you had the whole surgery kit, that's reasonable, but just a saw?)
harassing sec?

note that the one medkit is the one he spawned with. I'm making a bet here that he at roundstart, made poisons, and fucked off from their job.


Banning me promotes this behaviour. I'll open a policy discussion if people want to discuss this.

[Darkgenerallord]

In what way was he harassing Security? As far as I can tell he got brigged, served his time, and then went back to the brig where you permaed him. Again, owning a saw, the hypo and what was used to fill it, is not enough to perma. It is powergamey, sure, but not enough to literally perma them for. I have said this maybe eight or nine times now, you repeat the same points, I repeat them back.

[J_Madison]

it is every way enough for perma. just because the warden was incompetent and didn't search them, it doesn't give them immunity to arrest.

maybe under space law it isn't, but that playstyle and attitude is so shitty, it's perfectly reasonable to keep someone out of a round for it.

[J_Madison]

alright let me ask you

if I ahelped this, what would you reply?
deal with it IC?
that's what I did.

oh not that kind of deal with it?
what, I'm gonna confiscate and let go someone who has been a problem for sec during a cult round?

dying is fun, but I'm not going to die by an admin mandate telling me I have to die to my own incomptence that they forced.

[Darkgenerallord]

I look into all ahelps, and make a judgement later down the road. They were arrested, served their sentence, and seemingly did not directly hinder Security in any actual way. Nor did they show any attempts to harm any member of Security until well after, when they were stuck in Perma for 40+ minutes. I do not believe your reasoning for permaing them was well reasoned or just, and I acted accordingly.

[J_Madison]

I don't understand your admin style, and whilst I understand you've made leaps and improvements of actually playing sec, I simply think this judgement is based on the fact that you would see yourself in the CMO's position.

That's the punishment really. The fact that I don't appreciate people doing my job as sec and needlessly stockpiling weapons and lethal equipment as non sec.

I'm curious why you haven't done a thing to the CMO who at roundstart did nothing for medbay. I'd like to see that addressed because it's clear we have a playstyle difference.

I play all and any of my jobs to the fullest extent possible; I don't go braindead because no antag, I don't suicide, I don't ghost, I don't do other people's jobs, and I certainly don't leave medbay with a hypo full of poison as a non antag and steal the saw to use as a weapon.

I'd like their notes pulled to see if this behaviour of making stun chems for whatever reason (validhunting, kidnapping, stolen honour) is common with the CMO.

And this factors in because I do play CMO, I do play medbay, and it's this exact kind of behaviour that makes people despise medbay staff.
And unless you're willing to deal with it as an admin (which I think you're going to label it IC issue and ignore it), I think by banning me you're promoting this kind of behaviour which makes the rounds less fun and security more prone to drastic acounts.

[Darkgenerallord]

The CMO was warned for cutting off lizard's tails without consent. This was what the saw was probably used for, now that I'm thinking about it. They likely still had it due to being arrested shortly before. It'll require the actual player to verify this, but the point stands. This was the first note of this sort, and is as such why it is a warning. They were warned OOC, they got brigged IC, they served the sentence. They did not attempt to hinder Security in any way as far as I could tell, get revenge, etc.

You were not told by the HoS, Warden, Captain, etc to permabrig them. You decided to do it on your own, because you decided that their playstyle was poor enough that they did not belong in the round. It is not your job to act upon powergaming. There was also something about how he could theoretically hypospray you and kill you. The HoP could theoretically shoot you and kill you. Is this enough to permabrig him if he gets brigged for something else earlier, and then walks in the brig?

Your usual wall of text stating that you play every role to the fullest, I don't do other's jobs, etc etc is not really relevant. I very rarely label something an IC issue unless I truly believe it was an IC issue. I am capable of empathizing with Security players, not just other players. Regardless, my verdict remains. Unless PKP tells me to lift it or Ausops changes his mind, this will stick. We have repeated the same things multiple times, more or less, including ingame. Unless new info etc comes up, I will wait.

[bman]

i'd like to remind us that HoPs giving themselves all access and stocking weapons then fucking off from their office is a permable offense, and a CMO doing what J_mad alleged too is very reminiscent of that (stockpiling on weapons, dereliction of duty, suspicious behavior during already high-stress round), so let us not forget the CMO's crimes. and then you have to remember that during a clock cult round security has to go turbo hitler to survive.

i believe that this being said is an important thing to consider in this conversation dont trespass my friee ispeesh you communists

[J_Madison]

So it's clear the player has past behaviour for kidnapping?
Alright, I see I was right to do what I did.


HOS, warden, ect were busy fighting cult, not to mention later they approved of me permastraightjacketbrigging another person. I think if they were there, they would be sufficiently convinced.


If this is legal, I'll by all means change my playstyle to suit this. I'll abandon my job and use it's capabilities to validhunt and harm.
That certainly will make the round better?

[PKPenguin321]

If this is legal, I'll by all means change my playstyle to suit this. I'll abandon my job and use it's capabilities to validhunt and harm.
That certainly will make the round better?

Don't pull the "OH SO IF PLAYER X CAN DO Y IN THIS CASE THEN SURELY I CAN DO Y ALL THE TIME REGARDLESS OF CONTEXT???", it doesn't help your argument

[Darkgenerallord]

The CMO player actually did have an earlier note about kidnapping. As such, the second warning was changed to a dayban, as it probably should have been. I'm fine with admitting I fucked up, on that part.

Even still, it's not your jurisdiction. They were handled both OOC and IC, admittedly poorly on the first time around on the former. It's not your job to permabrig people for crimes because they did something similar in a past round.

[J_Madison]

The CMO player actually did have an earlier note about kidnapping. As such, the second warning was changed to a dayban, as it probably should have been. I'm fine with admitting I fucked up, on that part.

Even still, it's not your jurisdiction. They were handled both OOC and IC, admittedly poorly on the first time around on the former. It's not your job to permabrig people for crimes because they did something similar in a past round.

I'd like a note added on them for making kidnap chems then. It's clear their intentions, and I think preparing for antag is common.

I'm sec. I'm the enforcer of IC issue.
It's an IC issue to be carrying around 6 poisons, abadoning a head post, abandoning medbay and leaving it to shambles, and stealing the saw.
otherwise they'd be banned for this kind of gross incomptence, no?

If this is legal, I'll by all means change my playstyle to suit this. I'll abandon my job and use it's capabilities to validhunt and harm.
That certainly will make the round better?

Don't pull the "OH SO IF PLAYER X CAN DO Y IN THIS CASE THEN SURELY I CAN DO Y ALL THE TIME REGARDLESS OF CONTEXT???", it doesn't help your argument

Shit rolls downhill PKP. How an admin enforces the rules and sets the player standard is how people play the game.

[Kholdgrave]

You, as a run of the mill sec officer, permabrigged a head of staff for carrying around poisons and apparently told no one. You decided to remove the CMO from the round for 40 minutes for not acting like a proper CMO by permabrigging him without a superior's consent. Almost like you weren't a proper Sec Officer.

There were numerous ways to make sure the CMO was non-clock but you decided act beyond your authority, tell none of your superiors, and throw a guy in perma.

This perfectly warrants a Secban as you were being a really shitty Sec officer, I have no idea how there's even any sort of debate about this.

[redlobster]

I played the CMO, I had the saw because I replaced the clowns arm, he stole it and I took it back from him outside of medical. After I served my time for assaulting the lizard player I went back to brig to heal an assistant. He had his suit sensors on and had about half health. I pointed to him and asked a couple times but the warden wasn't getting it so I entered brig and immediately got arrested and passed off to J. I told him I served my time and he just gave me some snobby remark doubting me, then the warden came in and told him he forgot to take me off arrest and that I had completed my sentence.

So instead of just releasing me he continued to search me in the room behind the wardens office. He seen the knockout chems and my hypo, didn't ask what they were for took them, my ID, and went on to empty the hypo in me and just stuffed me in permabrig and left. Also the cult was not outed when you arrested me, or at least no one on the command channel brought it up otherwise I would've known about it. Even if I was cult you wouldn't of known in the first place you made no effort to even find out.

I also did not try to kill the security officer when I attempted to leave. It was simple just an attempt to leave, if I wanted to kill him, I wouldve killed him? Its almost like I stunned him with his own baton, and tossed him into the door so it would open. If I was trying to kill him, why wouldnt I had just harm batoned him and walked out with his ID on?

[feem]

You are responsible for your own behavior.

Admins are responsible for enforcing the rules and resolving situations in which players break those rules.

Security is responsible for enforcing, and following, space law, OR in extreme situations, being responsible for the safety of the station crew and command personnel.

Non-security characters do not have many of the same restrictions in place regarding their following of space law, but as a consequence they also do not have a lot of the same protections that security has when doing things like preemptively arresting and searching people or rolling thunder on a department when there's cause to do so.

Players are responsible for following the rules of the game and of their role.

There are a lot of places where security's role of following space law and protecting the crew lines up nicely with the admin role of enforcing rules and resolving situations in which players break those rules (murderboner assaulting the station without cause, WGW, etc etc etc); this leads to a lot of people on either side of the baton feeling like, in some cases, security is doing a miniature, IC version of the administrator's role.

This is not the case.

It is not the player's role to make judgments based upon OOC rules as to whether or not another player's behavior is appropriate for the game; it not the player's role to make judgments based upon another player's playstyle as to whether or not they 'deserve' to be in the round; it is not a player's role to mete out punishment for perceived violations of the rules.

This is true whether the player is security or not.

However, as stated in the role descriptions above, security does have some more leeway when it comes to enforcing the places where these things overlap, provided that they follow the established policies and precedents from which they derive this protection.

This means that as a regular sec officer, in a regular situation, you need to defer to the warden when they say they've served their time. You can't arrest someone for the same crime twice. You can't unilaterally decide to perma someone with the intent of actually perma-ing them (I'm not talking about the one-off situation in which you dump someone there for a sec because the brig blew up, or because there's a fight going on, or something like that -- I'm talking about your own stated intent of permaing this person).

You can't decide to assassinate someone when there's not already an extreme situation going on and you've been given authorization to do it. An exception is if it is a life or death situation in which any player would be expected to defend themselves, and even then, because of your role and your protections, if the word hasn't already been given that lethals are valid, you're still expected to throw that prisoner in a cell alive.

Obviously there are exceptions, like nuke ops, and extremely hectic revolution rounds, and maybe even certain rounds of clock cult and blood cult. But the bottom line here is that security players are no different from regular players except in the very specific ways outlined in the rules, and those differences include both exceptions to the existing escalation policies and increased scrutiny and rules of conduct.

Security players are NOT responsible for "enforcing things that administrators have declared IC issues," they have no relationship to administrators at all. They are a specialized job in the game with a special set of restrictions to go along with their special set of allowances.

You are responsible for your own behavior.

[Cobby]

you aren't getting this. and you're ignoring the elephant in the room

why are you, as a non antag CMO;
doing sec's job.
abandoning your post.
making 6 bottles of poison.
carrying no additional medical items.
stealng the saw to use as a weapon (if you had the whole surgery kit, that's reasonable, but just a saw?)
harassing sec?

note that the one medkit is the one he spawned with. I'm making a bet here that he at roundstart, made poisons, and fucked off from their job.


Banning me promotes this behaviour. I'll open a policy discussion if people want to discuss this.

No it doesn't, it discourages sec thinking they are to enforce OOC ruless like powergaming. You are not an admin even if/when you play sec, and powergaming is beyond an IC issue.

Sec is not an extension of OOC administration.

[imblyings]

Denied.