Banned for doing Detective job???

[Milthy]

Banning admin: Iain0

banned me for detaining a suspect, and attempting to scan them. When the refused and ran, said they had a gun. Fearing for my life, after several warnings I fired upon them. After I scanned them, they were found to be the one who broke into the captain's office. I told the other officer to borg him as I didn't want someone out of the round.

but Iain0 decided to ban me...

[Timberpoes]

Ban details:
Milthy banned by Iain0 from Security Officer/Detective/Warden/Head of Security on 2021-08-15 04:11:02 during round #167830 (Sybil)

Overescalation as security - was searching a crew member who had (and admitted to having) a gun, crew member ran, and gunned them down, the crew was then stripped, husked (plasma person), turned into a head and effectively round removed. Given the option of detaining with non lethal weaponary or reviving quickly these methods seem overescalation. Also discussed borging the plasma person for posession of the gun which also seems over-punitive by space law guidelines.

[iain0]

Hi there, and thanks for the appeal ; please read the sticky about the formatting guidelines in future and edit this appeal up to match that template.

I will give an initial response based on my thought process anyway, I didn't want to delay the round end any longer so this is a more verbose presentation of my points

For reference, logs are at https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/167 ... athMittens, timestamp 03:26:54 onwards, (delete everything from the first &ckey onwards to see all logs).

A short chat exchange between the two of you can be seen before before you start removing their gloves, they get a little freaked out about this and take off down the corridor, after which you shoot them down into crit, a couple of other security are present at this point, and you remove their gloves, which being a plasma person causes them to burst into flame - the head of security expresses various concerns - (burning usually leading to things like loss of gear and husking which can heavily limit the chances of medical attending any corpse).

At this point I start handling the ticket, but do keep my eye on the dead person, who later becomes just a head, and sits around in security for a while before you adopt it into your backpack, become a zombie, and the round progresses towards its closure.

The other player was essentially round removed and most of your justification centers around them "running", particularly of note into my verdict rendered:
1) They had a gun, which they admitted to before you started searching them, and took no hostile action with it. They were not a traitor and gave you no impression of lethal force (in your own words from the ticket, it was more an "instinctive human fear for your life").
2) You attempted to remove their gloves, without a suitably good explanation of what you were doing (you forced the action by trying to remove them, which gives them a submit or flee choice only), which not only comes across as an attempt to steal since you didn't give good enough explanation as to why, and it is also complex for them to remove their gloves or have them removed because they're a plasma person and will catch on fire without gloves worn ; you simply attempting to remove them forcefully is potentially quite dangerous.
3) Security precedents - "The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods." - you should not be using lethals until you have exhausted other options or are having lethals used against you.
4) Not having brought non lethal methods is not a suitable reason for jumping to execution, and there was no immediate threat to you, the player ran off when you attempted an action that would cause them to catch fire.
5) Your job is detective, that is, you detect/investigate. The gun is there most as a last ditch defensive weapon for when the criminal is still lurking around your investigation sites and jumps you (from the job description: "You are not Security. You are an investigator. Your revolver is only for self-defense."). I would expect detectives to hand the actual arrests over to the security officers who are armed with a variety of snares, along with ranged and melee weapons of a non lethal capacity suitable for detaining subjects appropriately to the precedent in point (3) - ideally. If you insist on going for arrests yourself due to understaffing or other valid reason then you should be obtaining non lethal means to comply with (4).
6) You never completed the discussed borging of the head, both discussed in game and the course of action you said you were planning to take in the ticket. Given what points you represented in your ticket I still would argue borging is overdoing the response here.

I don't really consider your "several warnings" as several warnings either, you basically ordered them to stand still, "show their hands/fingers", and then started to remove their gloves, which they probably didn't understand - and which would trigger the spontaneous combustion of the plasma person - they either submit and burn or run and you execute them. There was no further communication, they ran away and were crit about 15 tiles down the same underground tram section.

I have re-reviewed our conversation (ticket #6, round 167830) and the conversation mainly revolves around the fact that they ran, and therefor it was fine to execute them, despite the lack of any threatning action from them, and your particular role as a detective, and I don't consider this sufficient justification for the results.

Setting someone's status to wanted also works quite well here unless you have good reason to suspect they're about to do something "big", but your interaction just focusses on them having run.

In determining the final action I would take, I reviewed your note and ban history, which contains a fair number of entries for a 75 hour old account, with maybe one exception all entries relate to you overescalating or otherwise killing people without just cause, including previous infractions as security also for over escalation, in fact on closer review there is a note suggesting jumping to lethals prematurely should be met with escalating bans, and you've possibly dodged a bullet there. If you'd had a clean history then I would have settled with a lesser duration or even just a note if we'd reached an understanding conclusion to the ticket, but with a history so littered with similar escalation offenses that I didn't really have the time to read all the details of every post during the round, I felt the conclusion of a 2 week security suspension was reasonable, perhaps conservative.

For future note also you can look up fingerprint and blood IDs at various security and medical records terminals respectively, rather than going around taking finger readings from suspects (and also far more practical with plasma people) and the same security terminal can set their arrest status, which means you can visit a site for samples and then do the paperwork in the office, rather than in the field with a gun.

At this point it's over to you to present counterpoints and justification for the effective round removal.

[iain0]

Hi again,

Haven't heard further from you on this appeal, in the interests of moving things forward I will be closing this appeal with a default of denial if I do not hear further from you in 3 days (start of 25th, EU timezone), by which point time will be mostly served anyway.

Thanks

[iain0]

No further response, this ban almost has lapsed and is less relevant by the day, so to close out:

Appeal denied.