[NoxVs] maskenary - Server + Sec Ban

[maskenary]

BYOND account: maskenary
Character name: Reider Meza
Ban type: Server + Security
Ban length: 1440 minutes + 1 week
Ban reason: As head of security, looted a cultist bartender of their shotgun. Refused to give it back after the bartender was revived and (presumably) deconverted. Resisted the bartender's attempts to recover their gear, which resulted in the bartender being crit multiple times.
Time ban was placed: 2022-12-30 00:29:07
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 197261
Your side of the story:
First of all, I did not intend to rob a rando of their stuff in the beginning, I took the shotgun while they were a cultist after a messy fight at the cult base
It was also technically the crime of possession of a weapon in space law, since it was fully loaded with improvs
I did quite need the shotgun, as there was a good amount of dangerous people around including cult, an Unknown trying to jump me with a stunprod, CMO with bathsalts that batonned me, and other stuff

When they came back to get it they started it off a bit aggressively, not stating what they wanted

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10:40:42	SAY	Serxule/(Muffler) "reider give me back all my shit"

And then this guy comes in and stunprods me out of nowhere, who might/was working with them

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10:40:47	ATTACK	Tag114/(Andrew Davis) stun attacked Maskenary/(Reider Meza) with the stunprod (NEWHP: 78)

And off of that, they try to loot me, including my bag

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10:40:51	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) is stripping Maskenary/(Reider Meza) of the sawn-off Super Shotgun.
10:40:51	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) is stripping Maskenary/(Reider Meza) of the leather satchel.

This is not cool and increased my reluctance to give them something by a lot, why would I want to return it if that happened
They were also quite rude about returning the shotgun

I had also not recieved any confirmation that they were deconverted yet, so it was still possible they could be dangerous. Medbay staff do often just revive crit/dead bodies without asking questions. Especially because their bag was not on them I think to show their dagger.

As conpensation for what I had taken, I offered a energy gun in exchange

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10:42:51	SAY	Maskenary/(Reider Meza) "ill trade it"
10:42:54	SAY	Maskenary/(Reider Meza) "for a laser"

Which is plenty enough for any self defense. If they clearly stated what they really needed the shotgun specifically for, I might have even given the shotgun back. I did not just want to rob this guy of everything.

Later they come in and attack me with a stunprod

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10:46:50	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) stun attacked Maskenary/(Reider Meza) with the stunprod (NEWHP: 96.6)

And then started shittalking after they were batonned back

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10:47:11	SAY	Serxule/(Muffler) "whore"
10:47:18	SAY	Serxule/(Muffler) "actually kill yourself"

At this point I do not intend to give it back after they behaved in the way they did and said that.
I also noticed that they had a plasmaglass spear they were just about to throw at me before I landed my stun on them, so I chucked it back at them

Later some chaos happens / I'm not paying attention enough and they successfully yoink the shotgun off of my belt

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10:51:27	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) is stripping Maskenary/(Reider Meza) of the sawn-off Super Shotgun.
10:51:32	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) has stripped Maskenary/(Reider Meza) of the sawn-off Super Shotgun.

When I tried to get them for this they fired the improvised shotgun directly at me, which would have done a lot of damage and possibly give me piercing bleed wounds

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10:55:03	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical

So in retaliation, I crit them with lasers and I intended to heal them right after but they succumed

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10:55:15	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) Has whispered his final words with -62.6 points of health!

After this, they already did their IC revenge too, sawing me a few dozen time as I die. I think that reduces the need for OOC intervention since they already got their justice?

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11:08:48	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) attacked *no key*/(Reider Meza) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -58.6)
(bunch of times)

Logs: https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/197261

Why you think you should be unbanned: Confiscation of the shotgun was valid, them being non-antagonistic was not confirmed, and the IC escalation is proper.

Edited by san7890 on December 29th, 2022: Removed portion of the appeal that read as a ban request for an involved player, appeallate was notified prior and was agreeable.

[san7890]

I have just had to delete ten posts from this thread.

The contents of these deleted posts were mostly in response to allegations made in the original post (now edited out), and while a great amount of logs were used, it was ultimately subjective or laden with vitriol. Please review the peanut policy at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44. I will continue to monitor this appeal and will proactively place people on FNR Post Approval if they aren't able to make statements without over-the-top emotional charge (small reminder that the appellate and the banning admin are exempt from this). Although a good amount of information was present in the deleted posts and may be reviewed by anyone with admin privileges on the forums- they are needlessly vitriolic and ultimately peanuts.

[NoxVS]

First of all, I did not intend to rob a rando of their stuff in the beginning, I took the shotgun while they were a cultist after a messy fight at the cult base

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with this. It's perfectly fine to grab stuff off a dead/dying cultist.

It was also technically the crime of possession of a weapon in space law, since it was fully loaded with improvs

I had also not recieved any confirmation that they were deconverted yet, so it was still possible they could be dangerous.

If you want to use this reasoning, stick with it. You can't tell me that you thought they were a possible threat and were breaking Space Law by having a gun without permission, just to go on and talk about how you tried giving them a gun with lethal capabilities as a trade.

As conpensation for what I had taken, I offered a energy gun in exchange

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10:42:51	SAY	Maskenary/(Reider Meza) "ill trade it"
10:42:54	SAY	Maskenary/(Reider Meza) "for a laser"

You can't have it both ways where they are simultaneously a potential cultist that can't be trusted with a gun while also being someone you don't need to bother attempting a deconversion on and they can be trusted with a laser

I did quite need the shotgun, as there was a good amount of dangerous people around including cult, an Unknown trying to jump me with a stunprod, CMO with bathsalts that batonned me, and other stuff

This can also be fine depending on the situation. It can be perfectly fine to take something from someone because of how desperately you need it, and it leads to interesting situations when you have two people who both vitally need something that only has enough for one of them. This justification quickly fails when it starts becoming more about you wanting something than you needing it. If you have guns to spare to the point where you can trade them out to people, I doubt that you really need the shotgun and instead just want the one shotgun on the station that can be fired off twice instantly, all while remaining compact and easy to carry.

If they clearly stated what they really needed the shotgun specifically for, I might have even given the shotgun back. I did not just want to rob this guy of everything.

I don't think they really need a reason to have the shotgun, it's theirs. I think if anyone had to justify why they need the shotgun more than the other person, it'd be you.

Later some chaos happens / I'm not paying attention enough and they successfully yoink the shotgun off of my belt

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10:51:27	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) is stripping Maskenary/(Reider Meza) of the sawn-off Super Shotgun.
10:51:32	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) has stripped Maskenary/(Reider Meza) of the sawn-off Super Shotgun.

When I tried to get them for this they fired the improvised shotgun directly at me, which would have done a lot of damage and possibly give me piercing bleed wounds

Why did you have to get them back? They had what they wanted and that was that, why go after them to recover what you yourself had stolen in the first place? How are they safe enough to be trusted with a laser but untrustworthy enough to be allowed to have their shotgun, all while the station is under a big enough cultist threat that you can justify taking the shotgun yet also have enough breathing room to go on a side quest to steal the shotgun back?

the IC escalation is proper.

The biggest issue here is that you are the head of security. Because of the nature of security and the protections you have, there is not much that can be done to escalate against you. If you tell them to pound sand, they are out of luck. They can't get security to deal with you, probably can't get command to deal with you, they usually have worse gear than you, and they'll probably get curbstomped by the rest of security if they try anything against you. And even when they did successfully get the gun back, you just went after them to steal it again anyways. Their options were either give up entirely and write their shotgun off as gone forever, or fight you for it for the rest of the round despite the fact that you have the advantage in escalating the situation to the point of critting or killing them.

Also, I should say, the ban was placed during round 197266 for events that occurred during 197261. I left that out at the time but have since updated the ban to note this.

[maskenary]

When they came back to get it they started it off a bit aggressively, not stating what they wanted

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10:40:42	SAY	Serxule/(Muffler) "reider give me back all my shit"

And then this guy comes in and stunprods me out of nowhere, who might/was working with them

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10:40:47	ATTACK	Tag114/(Andrew Davis) stun attacked Maskenary/(Reider Meza) with the stunprod (NEWHP: 78)

And off of that, they try to loot me, including my bag

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10:40:51	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) is stripping Maskenary/(Reider Meza) of the sawn-off Super Shotgun.
10:40:51	ATTACK	Serxule/(Muffler) is stripping Maskenary/(Reider Meza) of the leather satchel.

The cause of me not wanting to give the shotgun back is mainly due to this bit above which is our first interaction together of them trying to get the shotgun back. It starts off with them trying to take it by force after a hit from a stunprod. At the time I would think that the stunprodder hitting me 5 seconds after them telling me to give their stuff back, and then them proceeding to use that opportunity to start stripping me, would likely be working with them. Maybe they discussed with each other earlier to cooperate for revenge, or they are a fellow cultist. This already escalated the conflict to an almost lethal, maybe even lethal one. This significantly reduces, and probably gets rid of my obligation to give it back. Stun batons are treated as lethal weapons due to their very strong ability to incapacitate someone.

just to go on and talk about how you tried giving them a gun with lethal capabilities as a trade.

Offering the laser gun was because I just felt a bit bad about their angry rambling. I feel significantly less threatened with a laser gun than an improvised shotgun. Lasers take a while to down a target and give you time to react while improvised shotguns can 2 tap people into crit, give severe bleed wounds, and can stunlock into a wall on the first shot. The guns do not compare.

Why did you have to get them back? They had what they wanted and that was that, why go after them to recover what you yourself had stolen in the first place?

See above. The escalation of that conflict already significantly reduces, and probably gets rid of my obligation to give it back.
Me getting it back after they already got it back it was after they had stunprodded me themselves too, called me a whore, and told me to kill myself. Like I'm not gonna let this guy keep their shotgun if they try to get it like this.

The biggest issue here is that you are the head of security. Because of the nature of security and the protections you have, there is not much that can be done to escalate against you. If you tell them to pound sand, they are out of luck. They can't get security to deal with you, probably can't get command to deal with you, they usually have worse gear than you, and they'll probably get curbstomped by the rest of security if they try anything against you. And even when they did successfully get the gun back, you just went after them to steal it again anyways. Their options were either give up entirely and write their shotgun off as gone forever, or fight you for it for the rest of the round despite the fact that you have the advantage in escalating the situation to the point of critting or killing them.

Sorry but I don't quite understand the main point of this, what are you trying to say exactly? That it's okay that they can use batons and lethal force to get me because they're a crew and sec has better gear?

[NoxVS]

This already escalated the conflict to an almost lethal, maybe even lethal one. This significantly reduces, and probably gets rid of my obligation to give it back. Stun batons are treated as lethal weapons due to their very strong ability to incapacitate someone.

Which is normally fine. A player randomly stunning you can be pretty easily treated as a lethal attack in the moment. You can't consider it to be a random attempt on your life when you actually did something to justify it. If you take something from someone, they are fully justified in stunning you to take it back. If you want to be able to consider stuns as lethal, then don't wrong people in such a way that they are justified in going after you.

Offering the laser gun was because I just felt a bit bad about their angry rambling. I feel significantly less threatened with a laser gun than an improvised shotgun. Lasers take a while to down a target and give you time to react while improvised shotguns can 2 tap people into crit, give severe bleed wounds, and can stunlock into a wall on the first shot. The guns do not compare.

This really just makes it feels like you saying that you just wanted the gun because it was powerful and were refusing to give it back, not because you didn't trust them to have it, but because then you wouldn't be able to use it.

The escalation of that conflict already significantly reduces, and probably gets rid of my obligation to give it back.
Me getting it back after they already got it back it was after they had stunprodded me themselves too, called me a whore, and told me to kill myself. Like I'm not gonna let this guy keep their shotgun if they try to get it like this.

Conflict is automatically suspended when one participant is dead or incapacitated. A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions.

The conflict was over. You started it by taking the shotgun, they ended it by getting it back and leaving you be. I wish they had handled it better, and I looked into what they had said, but at the end of the day you started the conflict and it ended with them walking away with the shotgun you had stolen and everyone still alive and standing. That's when you decided to go after them to steal the shotgun back, and use the fact that you are security to justify switching to lethals when they try to defend themselves from your random attack.

Sorry but I don't quite understand the main point of this, what are you trying to say exactly? That it's okay that they can use batons and lethal force to get me because they're a crew and sec has better gear?

I am saying that the problem with "IC escalation" with security is that they are given protections and freedoms to do their job easier, something that can very easily be weaponized by having a double standard. You stun him and it's perfectly fine, since that's your job. He stuns you and that's a lethal attempt on your life.

The whole reason for this ban was because the situation seemed to be that you started a conflict by stealing a powerful weapon that would have benefitted you and then used your security equipment and protections to ensure that you could keep the shotgun without consequence. Security are given these protections and advantages because they are also supposed to be held to a higher standard. This is that standard being applied.

Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment. However, security should refrain from confiscating items not related to any crimes, especially important department-specific items like hard suits. Obvious exceptions to this are things like radio headsets, if players use it to harass security over the radio while being arrested.

Abuse of position; as in being deliberately incompetent or malicious in their position is not allowed. Deliberate incompetence or malice can result in warnings or bans, depending on severity. Example would be a chemist constantly abusing the position to make space lube and lubing hallways, they may be warned and then jobbanned if further abuse happens.

Any situation where you can overthrow the security force in, they'll probably already be banned. It's okay if you have sufficient IC reason.

I don't intend on lifting unless there's some information that I missed. As always you are free to ask for headmins if you still disagee.

[maskenary]

You can't consider it to be a random attempt on your life when you actually did something to justify it.

What? I took the shotgun from them when they were a cultist, you yourself said that there's "there's nothing wrong with this" and that it's "perfectly fine to grab stuff off a dead/dying cultist"?

Notice how there's approximately 5 seconds between their first message asking for the shotgun back and me getting stunprodded and them attempting to loot me from that. With the situation the station is in (confirmed cult), I could probably crit/kill both of them in the moment from this and it would be fine.

There is nothing that would "justify" this unless they had already interacted with me in the past as a non-cultist to get their shotgun back and I refused.

They were not a cultist anymore, what happened to them as a cultist does not apply to the conflict because they are deconned now. Deconned cult can't go around killing the whole crew because "oh they attacked me back when I was still a cult".
The whole conflict at that point was: they asked me for the shotgun, I didn't give it in 5 seconds. And this justifies me getting stunprodded and looted?

From this point they had already escalated the conflict to a lethal one. That significantly reduces, and probably gets rid of my obligation to give it back. After this they just kept coming back for more which is an IC issue.

There's no way they are justified in having me immediately stunprodded and looted because I took their shotgun as a cultist?

——————————
Edit:

Sure. If you're in the middle of a fight and find a weapon on a dying cultist, it's perfectly fine to grab it and carry out the fight with it. If you took it from a player who had a legitimate reason for having it that extends beyond their status as a conversion antag, they'll probably want it back and are justified in attempting to retrieve it.

I’m looking over this again and I think most of the reason the ban is still in place is because you think I was the one who started the conflict. This is just stupid.

They are not entitled to an immediate attack and looting of a security officer because they had their shotgun taken as a cultist.

——————————

This really just makes it feels like you saying that you just wanted the gun because it was powerful and were refusing to give it back, not because you didn't trust them to have it, but because then you wouldn't be able to use it.

Untrue. I am simply providing reasoning on why I could possibly give a laser to a potential cultist, they have way better weapons to use than a laser. This was just proof I tried to de-escalate the conflict.

The conflict was over. You started it by taking the shotgun, they ended it by getting it back and leaving you be. I wish they had handled it better, and I looked into what they had said, but at the end of the day you started the conflict and it ended with them walking away with the shotgun you had stolen and everyone still alive and standing.

I did not start the conflict, I took the shotgun when they were a cultist. But they escalated it with me trying to get it back. They did multiple aggressive actions worthy of spiting anyone enough to take the shotgun back because of what has been done. It's an IC issue.

That's when you decided to go after them to steal the shotgun back,

They had already at this point had done numerous things during the conflict that justify this.

- Had a likely ally stunprod me 5 seconds after our first encounter for them to run up loot me
- Attacked me themselves with a stunprod
- Prepared a spear to throw at me
- Called me a whore
- Told me to kill myself (I could probably attack them justifiably from just these 2 statements alone)

In this conflict, they had already done 2-3 potentially lethal attacks that I successfully managed to ward off and survive, as well as said very vulgar remarks that would definitely spite any human in a normal setting.
This is an IC issue. I had IC reasoning to go after them, they had IC reasoning to go after me.

and use the fact that you are security to justify switching to lethals when they try to defend themselves from your random attack.

Any crewmember is usually going to switch to lethals if the conflict escalates to that point, and it did get to that point already long ago. And what do you mean "random attack"? I batonned him with the intent to arrest. Are all security arrests random attacks now that you have justification to shoot them into crit for because they have better gear than you?

Sending them into crit isn't even that big of a deal. It would literally be worse for them if I brigged them because getting revived out of crit in the middle of medbay is so damn fast because he's already in medbay. It'll take a few minutes max if the doctors are busy. I'm not sending them into crit in a closed off departmental room.

The whole reason for this ban was because the situation seemed to be that you started a conflict by stealing a powerful weapon that would have benefitted you and then used your security equipment and protections to ensure that you could keep the shotgun without consequence. Security are given these protections and advantages because they are also supposed to be held to a higher standard. This is that standard being applied.

As stated before, I took it when they were a cultist. You yourself said this was perfectly fine. After that, they escalated the conflict in our first encounter to the point where I am no longer obligated to return it due to their behavior. This is not stealing, it is justified.

"security should refrain from confiscating items not related to any crimes" - False, I took it when they were a cult and it was cultist weaponry used against the crew.
"Abuse of position; as in being deliberately incompetent or malicious in their position is not allowed" - False, I was not. I was acting completely normally but I got stunprodded on two separate occasions, had an attempt to loot me, and harshly verbally attacked. At that point, it's within my right IC to seek the shotgun back from a crewmember that has done all this to me.

[maskenary]

I request a headmin review please if you do not agree.

[maskenary]

Agux909 also made a pretty good post in the peanut if that helps you understand my point better

Nox can you please tell me where do you get your reasoning from when you say that he started the escalation by stealing his shotgun? Because now it seems all the ban dangles on that thread, and, as you yourself said on the appeal, you can't really have it both ways:

First of all, I did not intend to rob a rando of their stuff in the beginning, I took the shotgun while they were a cultist after a messy fight at the cult base

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with this. It's perfectly fine to grab stuff off a dead/dying cultist.

This already escalated the conflict to an almost lethal, maybe even lethal one. This significantly reduces, and probably gets rid of my obligation to give it back. Stun batons are treated as lethal weapons due to their very strong ability to incapacitate someone.

Which is normally fine. A player randomly stunning you can be pretty easily treated as a lethal attack in the moment. You can't consider it to be a random attempt on your life when you actually did something to justify it. If you take something from someone, they are fully justified in stunning you to take it back. If you want to be able to consider stuns as lethal, then don't wrong people in such a way that they are justified in going after you.

Reider didn't start any escalation because he stole something from an antagonist, which is an action fully protected by rule 4:
(rule 4)

Reider might be playing-to-win by taking a shotgun from a cultist and then using it for himself, we can all agree on this. But he's definitely NOT starting an escalation-type of conflict with a player by stealing it, when the aforementioned player was a cultist. He didn't wrong anybody, the shotgun was lost to the bartender and that's it. He was using it/carrying it when he was an antagonist and now that he isn't, he doesn't have it. He can try to get it if he gets deconverted, sure, but he's not entitled to it being returned to him, that's part of RULE 10. You can even replace the shotgun with any other desired item from another job/department, and it should follow the same logic (RD and a hand tele, CMO and the belt defib, a botanist and their gloves/nettle, etc). Yeah rule 10 is not just about "dying" or "losing", but things not going the way you'd like to, sometimes you just have to move on. If you lose an item when you die, you can't really expect to have it back if you manage to get revived, and hell, I say this doubles if you were an antagonist while you lost it.

Now, Moffler/Serxule actually did try to get the shotgun. Regardless of the decision from Reider to give it back or not, the one initiating escalation here is Moffler when trying to steal the shotgun as a non-antagonist, after the circumstances described above. The shotgun was now in posession of Reider and he was using it. Moffler jumped to insults and stunning instead of asking for it politely and explaining that he really wanted it now, after being deconverted.

As I said in my previous post, both parties acted awfully, but Reider did NOT start any conflict. Please enlighten me if I'm missing something that indicates he has because I can't see it.
I still think this was an IC issue and you shouldn't have gotten involved at all.

[NoxVS]

Nox can you please tell me where do you get your reasoning from when you say that he started the escalation by stealing his shotgun? Because now it seems all the ban dangles on that thread, and, as you yourself said on the appeal, you can't really have it both ways:

Sure. If you're in the middle of a fight and find a weapon on a dying cultist, it's perfectly fine to grab it and carry out the fight with it. If you took it from a player who had a legitimate reason for having it that extends beyond their status as a conversion antag, they'll probably want it back and are justified in attempting to retrieve it. And to clarify, by "fine" I mean "not really actionable by admins in my eyes". You can do something that is "fine" in the eyes of an admin and still start a conflict with another player.

Reider didn't start any escalation because he stole something from an antagonist, which is an action fully protected by rule 4:
(rule 4)

Conversion antags are in a sort of an odd position. Despite being antagonists, you aren't free to do stuff like refuse to deconvert them just to go around executing every single one. In this instance the bartender still "owns" the shotgun once they get deconverted. They had it for legitimate reasons before conversion, and as far as I can tell it wasn't even fired yet, but logging is a little messed up with it. To give a bit more extreme of an example, I imagine you would probably be pretty pissed off if you were to be fully stripped, deconverted, and then thrown out without any of your stuff and told to pound sand when you ask for it back.

Reider might be playing-to-win by taking a shotgun from a cultist and then using it for himself, we can all agree on this. But he's definitely NOT starting an escalation-type of conflict with a player by stealing it, when the aforementioned player was a cultist. He didn't wrong anybody, the shotgun was lost to the bartender and that's it. He was using it/carrying it when he was an antagonist and now that he isn't, he doesn't have it. He can try to get it if he gets deconverted, sure, but he's not entitled to it being returned to him, that's part of RULE 10. You can even replace the shotgun with any other desired item from another job/department, and it should follow the same logic (RD and a hand tele, CMO and the belt defib, a botanist and their gloves/nettle, etc). Yeah rule 10 is not just about "dying" or "losing", but things not going the way you'd like to, sometimes you just have to move on. If you lose an item when you die, you can't really expect to have it back if you manage to get revived, and hell, I say this doubles if you were an antagonist while you lost it.

What makes you magically entitled to it if the original owner isn't? Why is it rule 10 when the bartender loses the shotgun but isn't when you lose the shotgun? Why not just move on? You started a conflict, you lost it and walked away alive, and you decided to use the fact that you are security to carry out a vendetta and ensure you can't lose. If you had just walked away after the shotgun was retrieved, that probably would have been it.

Now, Moffler/Serxule actually did try to get the shotgun. Regardless of the decision from Reider to give it back or not, the one initiating escalation here is Moffler when trying to steal the shotgun as a non-antagonist, after the circumstances described above. The shotgun was now in posession of Reider and he was using it. Moffler jumped to insults and stunning instead of asking for it politely and explaining that he really wanted it now, after being deconverted.

You can't steal your own stuff. It's yours. This entire argument can just as easily be flipped the other way around, where you initiated the conflict by stealing the shotgun as a non-antagonist. The shotgun was recovered and was now in possession of the bartender, who you stun and laser instead of asking for it politely and explain that you really wanted it.

As I said in my previous post, both parties acted awfully

I largely agree, both parties could have handled this a lot better.

I still think this was an IC issue and you shouldn't have gotten involved at all.

Honestly, I feel like this all could have very easily just been an IC issue up until you lost the conflict and decided to refuse to end things there. Instead, this happened

► Show Spoiler

[2022-12-29 22:54:42.216] SAY: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) "ai locate muffler" (Security Post - Medsci (148,88,2))
[2022-12-29 22:54:57.009] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) stun attacked Serxule/(Muffler) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 98.9) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:54:58.219] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) kicks Serxule/(Muffler) with onto their side (paralyzing) (NEWHP: 97.8) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:54:58.220] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shoved Serxule/(Muffler) (NEWHP: 97.8) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:54:59.411] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shoved Serxule/(Muffler) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 97.9) (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:00.098] SAY: Serxule/(Muffler) "stop" (Medical (154,95,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:01.568] SAY: Serxule/(Muffler) "bitch" (Medical (154,95,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:01.951] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) attacked Serxule/(Muffler) with disabler (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 92.3) (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.668] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.670] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.673] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.676] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.680] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.683] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.686] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.690] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.692] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.695] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) fired at [floor] with the bullet from Medical (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:03.800] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) stun attacked Serxule/(Muffler) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 92.5) (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:06.361] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) fired at Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser from Medical (NEWHP: 91.7) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:06.365] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shot Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser (NEWHP: 91.7) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:07.056] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) fired at Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser from Medical (NEWHP: 71.9) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:07.058] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shot Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser (NEWHP: 71.9) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:07.640] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) fired at Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser from Medical (NEWHP: 51.9) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:07.643] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shot Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser (NEWHP: 51.9) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:07.646] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) suffered: Second Degree Burns to head | Damage: 20 (rolled 37/66.2891) | WB: -30 | BWB: 40 (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:08.211] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) fired at Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser from Medical (NEWHP: 32) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:08.214] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shot Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser (NEWHP: 32) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:08.219] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) suffered: Third Degree Burns to head | Damage: 22 (rolled 58/75.7516) | WB: -30 | BWB: 40 (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:08.863] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) fired at Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser from Medical (NEWHP: 10) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:08.865] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shot Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser (NEWHP: 10) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:09.429] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) fired at Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser from Medical (NEWHP: -14) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:09.431] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shot Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser (NEWHP: -14) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:10.090] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) fired at Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser from Medical (NEWHP: -37.9) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:10.093] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) shot Serxule/(Muffler) with the laser (NEWHP: -37.9) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:11.597] ATTACK: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) grabbed Serxule/(Muffler) passive grab (NEWHP: -61.7) (Medical (152,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:11.619] EMOTE: Serxule/(Muffler) gasps! (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:15.940] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) Has whispered his final words with -62.6 points of health! (Medical (152,93,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:15.948] ATTACK: Serxule/(Muffler) has died (BRUTE: 3.3, BURN: 166.1, TOX: 0, OXY: 43.0667, CLONE: 0) (Medical (152,93,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:16.119] SAY: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) "gime" (Medical (153,94,2))
[2022-12-29 22:55:17.457] SAY: Maskenary/(Reider Meza) "shotty" (Medical (153,94,2))

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 1/game.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... attack.txt

You randomly attack them, use lethals unnecessarily, grab the shotgun, and leave. This wasn't you arresting them as sec, this was you using security equipment to ensure that you can't lose the conflict. They were stunned and then lethaled from there. Them succumbing was a little lame, but a head of security running around like this is a lot worse.

Regardless, I've let headmins know that you requested a review.

[maskenary]

You read my main reply right?

The one above my post requesting headmin review? Just making sure, since you only replied to Agux's peanut.

My actual reply addresses your concerns.

[spookuni]

Continuing to escalate against a player who's possessions you have originally stolen as security with the intent to claim those possessions for yourself sets an extremely negative precedent, and the logs provided by Nox indicate that your primary goal was to do so. Security are held to higher standards of combat and escalation given that they are provided with both highly effective non-lethal weaponry and OOC metaprotections for their actions, and attacking people for their stuff and then critting them when they resist falls well outside that boundary.

You were fully within your rights to take and make use of gear from fallen cultists, and the conflict that resulted from that is entirely IC. But continuing that conflict after it has resolved when the now-deconverted rightful owner of that gear has reclaimed it is bad escalation, especially as the head of security - playing security is not an excuse to rob people for useful gear, even if they're being dickheads about it.

Spook: Do not overturn
Rave: Do not overturn
San Do not overturn