[MrrFiish] lawlolawl - Using chemnades as Chemist against antags is bannable, apparently

[Lawlolawl]

BYOND account: lawlolawl
Character name: Terry Thomas / Duncan Sawyer (brain transfer to ssd body post death)
Ban type:Server (all servers)
Ban length: 7 days
Ban reason: As a non-antagonist in the round 210339 threw several chem nades killing several crewmembers on the station and emergency shuttle. Do not bomb innocent crew as a non-antagonist, even if you are aiming for threats such as dragons or nukies. (NOTE: the admin put in the wrong round number? I got the correct logs from round 210334, 210339 was the following round where the ban was applied.)
Time ban was placed: 2023-07-16 07:31:34
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 210339 (as written, but this should be a typo as it was actually 210334, I was already banned and unable to join the game by 210339 which was the following round)


Your side of the story: I started as a chemist making my own nitroglycerine chem factory as I had recently started learning how to make and use chem factories / chem plumbing in general. As there would be a relatively complex synthesis sequence I thought it would be interesting to try it out and see how much nitroglycerine I would be able to make in the span of one shift.

I managed to set the factory up and made some chemnades so I could count the number I was able to make and benchmark the production speed.

Later on lots of people start calling out space dragons on comms and I walk into the main halls and see a dragon running away while fighting random crew in the halls. I time and throw a chemnade I made at it while it stopped to attack a different crew member. It hits the space dragon and as I prime the second nade it sticks to my hand or I end up lagging out, so it detonates in my hand killing me. I get revived as an MMI (someone took my brain) and get myself placed in an SSD assistant's body (Duncan Sawyer). I continue running the chem factory after getting a new ID from the HoP. (Also note that so far no one had complained about my use of the first 2 chemnades, one of which killed myself.)

Eventually the shuttle is called because the shift was already close to the 90 minute mark or so and people discover that there are nukies, specifically around the departures area. This happens just as the shuttle is arriving and I try and board the shuttle, but immediately get shot from multiple tiles away by a nukie which somehow got on board the escape shuttle. I epipen myself and go in to stop the nukie from hijacking the shuttle, and there were only like 2 people actually fighting the nukie. After I reenter I see the nukie lying down and assumed someone managed to shove the nukie into a wall, so I take advantage of the stun timing and throw a chemnade at them to finish them off. (It would only be later when looking through logs that I find out that the nukie actually took a lot of damage from the escape shuttle turrets, so they actually just got into crit.)

The explosion blows a hole in the north-east corner of the shuttle and as a ghost I saw that the HoS was actually already dead (they ran into the nukie shuttle turrets) and the captain was basically afk (hiding in the escape shuttle bridge), without even their MODsuit on or deployed.

A minute or two later MrrFiish messages me about my use of chemnades, and after some back and forth decides to ban me. This is despite the fact that the nukie did manage to hijack the shuttle (judging from the "insignificant victory" they got). I guess maybe the nukies had been camping departures the whole time because a) the shuttle was almost arriving and b) their ship spawned next to departures. The nukie was also basically murderboning the people on the shuttle and everyone else who survived on the shuttle (maybe 10 people or so?) had been hiding in the shuttle bridge (including the captain, funnily enough) and the shuttle medbay. I am pretty certain that the only people caught in the blast were those actually fighting the nukie, everyone else was just hiding behind an airlock.

As for the dragon, I wasn't really able to tell if anyone else died with the space dragon nade as explosions don't really show up in the attack logs but I believe I reduced its HP by 100+. The dragon was also on the edge of my screen (8-9 tiles away maybe) so I couldn't really see how much damage I did before my second nade detonated in my hand and my vision went to black from dying.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

I used chemnades against major threats as a chemist (so the nades were part of "my job", in fact some maps have you spawn with the chemnade components on a table in the pharmacy). Even though there was some collateral damage I think it wasn't deliberate grief plus it was used against open antagonists killing people in the main halls. I think a 7 day ban is unwarranted given that I was using them as they were intended to be used and I threw them accurately (unless server lag messed up my perspective, I saw the nades land on the tile right next to the antags before they blew up).

As far as weapons made by crew goes, I think it's unique and a little gimmicky enough that it's at least somewhat interesting when it happens (and keep in mind that it's not like I do this every single time), and is far more interesting than:
> Major threat shows up
> Cargo buys lasers
> Crew shoots lasers while hauling rechargers around

Additionally security was lacking that round for some reason (none were present for any of the fights I was in), so it's not like I could have just sat back and let sec handle the antags first.

Anyway, as far as I can tell on MRP servers rarely does anyone die in the absence of major major threats and even with blobs they usually get discovered, ganged up on and killed by the entirety of crew (even heretics join in with heretic blades!) so almost no one dies (apart from maybe miners). I guess it's meant that most players on the server are not used to the concept of dying in a video game even though you should be expected to die sometimes. I suppose that's kind of why someone would ahelp dying in an explosion even though they're the one who ACTIVELY CHOSE to validhunt/fight a strong and well-equipped antag AS A CIVILIAN ROLE, despite the antag being far stronger than them (space dragon with tons of health and fire blasts and an Elite MOD nukie with a Bullpup). I personally am pretty sick of the desword stimpack nukie gaming meta so I didn't mind using a more potent weapon against one which was doing their murderboning thing on the escape shuttle. In any case, one of the docs who was fighting the nukie did like 5 damage per hit with an alien saw so it's pretty clear that civilian grade weapons won't be effective against nukies and it was only the heavy weapons (which happened to be the escape shuttle turrets and my nade) which took them down effectively.

As someone who uses random names, I'm not one of those static name, soft metagaming players who make their gameplay based on "building a reputation" around their static IC character so I guess I'll give up on MRP at this point. Honestly at this point I've lost most interest in MRP servers since the culture there is clearly different from what I expected, I just want the cross-server ban to be removed from the LRP servers so I can play Sybil / Terry. You can keep the Manuel ban, I don't care for it.

References of good conduct: I only play /tg/ because of its good codebase. Fulpstation is the only other server I've ever played more than a few hours on and I left it because the admins there were completely dogshit who broke their own MRP rules when they were a player, metagamed with their metafriends, and sided with people who were obviously their metafriends, and I doubt /tg/ takes references or vouches from that shithole seriously.

Anything else we should know: If you wanna know if I have any other bans from other servers, I was perma'd from some ERP server with barely 1 hour of gameplay when I was new to SS13 (their whole purpose was to have furry internet seggs with strangers, there is literally no gameplay there). /tg/ bans ERP so I don't think anyone will think any lesser of me for that. In the case of fulp, funnily enough no one bothered to ban me although Horatio muted me on the fulp discord for exposing their admin abuse (even though I just asked for a headmin to read my grief patrol / staff complaint), and deleted my complaint post on the fulp forums like a coward instead of addressing the blatant rule-breaking by their own admin. Anyway, that's a whole different story, but you did ask me to be honest about bans from other servers.

[Archie700]

Round:210334
Game
Attack

First chem grenade explosion log:

Code: Select all

06:28:26	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (152,139,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:26	GAME	Explosion with size (2, 5, 11, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (152,139,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:26	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (152,139,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:26	GAME	Explosion with size (2, 4, 8, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (152,139,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:34	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 3, 6, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2)). Possible cause: the sticky chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2)). Possible cause: the sticky chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:34	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:34	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 3, 7, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2)). Possible cause: the sticky chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:34	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2)). Possible cause: the sticky chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:34	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 3, 7, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2)). Possible cause: the sticky chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2)). Possible cause: the sticky chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:34	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 3, 7, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2)). Possible cause: the sticky chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
06:28:34	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 2, 5, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2)). Possible cause: the sticky chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).		
06:28:34	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Starboard Primary Hallway (141,137,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.	

The dragon fight:

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06:28:23	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas) primed a chemical grenade at Starboard Primary Hallway (144,137,2) containing: (x-large beaker 1 : Sulfuric Acid, 40 | Nitric Acid, 74.3984); (x-large beaker 2 : Glycerol, 80 | Sulfuric Acid, 40);.	(144, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:23	ATTACK	Vladoricious/(Vladin Heir) attacked BlueMemesauce/(Qinglong) with vorpal scythe (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 234)	(148, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:23	ATTACK	Vect0r/(V.E.N.D.E.T.T.A. Medical Shell-262) grabbed Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) passive grab (NEWHP: -10.4)	(146, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:25	ATTACK	Stiix/(space carp (860)) attacked Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) (NEWHP: -10.4)	(145, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:25	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas) has thrown the chemical grenade	(147, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:26	ATTACK	Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) pulled from Vect0r/(V.E.N.D.E.T.T.A. Medical Shell-262) with the space carp (860) (NEWHP: 100)	(140, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:26	ATTACK	Stiix/(space carp (860)) grabbed Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) passive grab (NEWHP: -25.4)	(141, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:28	ATTACK	Stiix/(space carp (860)) attacked [firelock]	(139, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:28	ATTACK	Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) bumped into Constellado/(Volkan Magna) and set them on fire.	(139, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:29	ATTACK	BlueMemesauce/(Qinglong) attacked Vladoricious/(Vladin Heir) (NEWHP: -48.5)	(146, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:29	ATTACK	Stiix/(space carp (860)) attacked Vect0r/(V.E.N.D.E.T.T.A. Medical Shell-262) (NEWHP: 100)	(140, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:30	ATTACK	BlueMemesauce/(Qinglong) attacked Vladoricious/(Vladin Heir) (NEWHP: -48)	(146, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:30	ATTACK	Vect0r/(V.E.N.D.E.T.T.A. Medical Shell-262) grabbed Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) passive grab (NEWHP: -25.4)	(139, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:30	ATTACK	Edith124/(Samuel Digson) fired at [floor] with the laser from Starboard Primary Hallway	(145, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:30	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas) primed a sticky chemical grenade at Starboard Primary Hallway (140,137,2) containing: (beaker 1 : Glycerol, 30 | Sulfuric Acid, 15); (beaker 2 : Nitric Acid, 29.9998 | Sulfuric Acid, 15);.	(140, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:30	ATTACK	Stiix/(space carp (860)) attacked [firelock]	(140, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(136, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(136, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(136, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(136, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(136, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	Edith124/(Samuel Digson) fired at [floor] with the laser from Starboard Primary Hallway	(146, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	Edith124/(Samuel Digson) shot Constellado/(Volkan Magna) with the laser (NEWHP: 83.7)	(147, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	RedBaronFlyer/(Eugine Adrian Hynes) fired at Stiix/(space carp (860)) with the laser from Starboard Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 25)	(137, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	Edith124/(Samuel Digson) fired at [floor] with the laser from Starboard Primary Hallway	(147, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	Edith124/(Samuel Digson) shot Constellado/(Volkan Magna) with the laser (NEWHP: 39.9)	(147, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:31	ATTACK	Vladoricious/(Vladin Heir) has died (BRUTE: 159, BURN: 47.5, TOX: 0, OXY: 7, CLONE: 0)	(147, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	RedBaronFlyer/(Eugine Adrian Hynes) shot Edith124/(Samuel Digson) with the laser (NEWHP: 53.7)	(135, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	Stiix/(space carp (860)) attacked Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) (NEWHP: -25.4)	(136, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	RedBaronFlyer/(Eugine Adrian Hynes) fired at [floor] with the laser from Starboard Primary Hallway	(135, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(132, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(132, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(132, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(132, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/water (1u, 1 purity)) from the fire extinguisher to [water]	(132, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	Edith124/(Samuel Digson) suffered: Hairline Fracture to head | Damage: 20 (rolled 66/66.2891) | WB: 10	(145, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:32	ATTACK	Vladoricious/(Vladin Heir) crashed into Edith124/(Samuel Digson) (NEWHP: 15)	(147, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:33	ATTACK	Vect0r/(V.E.N.D.E.T.T.A. Medical Shell-262) injected Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Aiuri) (NEWHP: -41.1)	(131, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:33	ATTACK	RedBaronFlyer/(Eugine Adrian Hynes) fired at Stiix/(space carp (860)) with the laser from Starboard Primary Hallway (NEWHP: 25)	(133, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:33	ATTACK	RedBaronFlyer/(Eugine Adrian Hynes) shot Stiix/(space carp (860)) with the laser (NEWHP: 25)	(133, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:33	ATTACK	Vect0r/(V.E.N.D.E.T.T.A. Medical Shell-262) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/c2/aiuri (5u, 0.75 purity)) from to Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) (NEWHP: -41.1)	(131, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:34	ATTACK	Vect0r/(V.E.N.D.E.T.T.A. Medical Shell-262) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/c2/aiuri (5u, 0.75 purity)) from to Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) (NEWHP: -41.1)	(128, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:34	ATTACK	Vect0r/(V.E.N.D.E.T.T.A. Medical Shell-262) injected Redbert/(Elysius Uruma) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Aiuri) (NEWHP: -41.1)	(128, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:34	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas) has died (BRUTE: 0, BURN: 30, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(141, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:35	ATTACK	BlueMemesauce/(Qinglong) attacked Constellado/(Volkan Magna) (NEWHP: 24.9)	(149, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:35	ATTACK	Edith124/(Samuel Digson) has died (BRUTE: 159.8, BURN: 71.3, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(145, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:36	ATTACK	Bmon/(June Creighton) suffered: Joint Dislocation to left leg | Damage: 20 (rolled 38/66.2891) | WB: 10	(134, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:36	ATTACK	Enderpainter/(Milky Way AX) has died (BRUTE: 221.9, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(136, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:36	ATTACK	Enderpainter/(Milky Way AX) crashed into Bmon/(June Creighton) (NEWHP: 82.9)	(136, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:37	ATTACK	BlueMemesauce/(Qinglong) attacked Constellado/(Volkan Magna) (NEWHP: -26.8)	(147, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:45	ATTACK	nachu/(M.U.) grabbed Foxicide/(Dae Shin-Tang) passive grab (NEWHP: -21)	(136, 139, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
06:28:52	ATTACK	NeverDawned/(Isabella Nozomu) grabbed Constellado/(Volkan Magna) passive grab (NEWHP: -45.8)	(141, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway

Second chemical grenade explosion log including subsequent explosions:

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07:04:56	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Emergency Shuttle (108,56,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
07:04:56	GAME	Explosion with size (3, 6, 12, 0) in (Emergency Shuttle (108,56,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer).		
07:04:57	GAME	Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Emergency Shuttle (108,56,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.		
07:04:57	GAME	Explosion with size (2, 4, 8, 0) in (Emergency Shuttle (108,56,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer).		
07:04:57	GAME	Explosion with size (0, 1, 4, 6) in (Emergency Shuttle (107,50,2)). Possible cause: the fuel tank. Last fingerprints: *null*.		
07:05:00	GAME	Explosion with size (1, 3, 8, 8) in (Emergency Shuttle (98,56,2)). Possible cause: the microbomb implant. Last fingerprints: *null*.

Fight in shuttle with the syndicate agent

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07:04:53	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer) primed a chemical grenade at Emergency Shuttle (108,57,2) containing: (x-large beaker 1 : Nitric Acid, 79.5398 | Sulfuric Acid, 40); (x-large beaker 2 : Glycerol, 80 | Sulfuric Acid, 40);.	(108, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:54	ATTACK	Bmon/(June Creighton) attacked FudgeMaster/(Izaiah Syndicate) with alien saw (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -24.6)	(107, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:54	ATTACK	Toshaa/(Jayden Goddard) shaken Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(93, 55, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:54	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer) has thrown the chemical grenade	(108, 56, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:54	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer) threw and hit Thorn16/(Thorn North) with the chemical grenade (NEWHP: 84.6)	(108, 56, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:55	ATTACK	Bmon/(June Creighton) attacked FudgeMaster/(Izaiah Syndicate) with alien saw (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -28.7)	(106, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:56	ATTACK	ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) attacked [shuttle seat] with the laser scalpel	(103, 56, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:57	ATTACK	FudgeMaster/(Izaiah Syndicate) has died (BRUTE: 166.3, BURN: 56.8, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(104, 56, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:58	ATTACK	Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) attempted to inject Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(92, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:58	ATTACK	Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/epinephrine (10u, 1 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/formaldehyde (3u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/coagulant (2u, 1 purity)) from the epinephrine medipen to Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(92, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:58	ATTACK	Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) injected Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(92, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:58	ATTACK	Toshaa/(Jayden Goddard) attempted to apply Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) with the medical gel (libital) /datum/reagent/medicine/c2/libital (16u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/granibitaluri (24u, 1 purity) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(91, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:59	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer) suffered: Joint Dislocation to left arm | Damage: 15 (rolled 36/44.3127) | WB: 10	(108, 47, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:04:59	ATTACK	Stiix/(Fleshclown) grabbed SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) passive grab (NEWHP: 100)	(95, 53, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:00	ATTACK	Thorn16/(Thorn North) suffered: Joint Dislocation | Damage: 15 (rolled 41/44.3127) | WB: 10	(108, 47, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:01	ATTACK	ExtremelyDooDooWaterPlayer/(David Dave) has died (BRUTE: 151.9, BURN: 79.1, TOX: 2.77759, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(97, 56, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:01	ATTACK	Constellado/(Volkan Magna) suffered: Hairline Fracture to right leg | Damage: 20 (rolled 64/66.2891) | WB: 10	(90, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:02	ATTACK	Toshaa/(Jayden Goddard) applied Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) with the medical gel (libital) /datum/reagent/medicine/c2/libital (16u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/granibitaluri (24u, 1 purity) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(91, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:02	ATTACK	Toshaa/(Jayden Goddard) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/c2/libital (4u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/granibitaluri (6u, 1 purity)) from the medical gel (libital) to Y3LL0WSAUL3ED/(Royce Maildread) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(91, 57, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:03	ATTACK	RazeWing/(Jake Ahriman) suffered: Joint Dislocation | Damage: 9.8 (rolled 8/24.4184) | WB: 10	(98, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:03	ATTACK	Bmon/(June Creighton) suffered: Joint Dislocation | Damage: 20 (rolled 39/66.2891) | WB: 10	(95, 56, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:07	ATTACK	Stiix/(Fleshclown) attacked [girder]	(95, 54, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:09	ATTACK	SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) healed Stiix/(Fleshclown) with suture (NEWHP: 15)	(95, 55, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:11	ATTACK	Stiix/(Fleshclown) grabbed SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) passive grab (NEWHP: 39.1)	(95, 54, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:11	ATTACK	Constellado/(Volkan Magna) attempted to inject Constellado/(Volkan Magna) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: 68.9)	(90, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:11	ATTACK	Constellado/(Volkan Magna) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/epinephrine (10u, 1 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/formaldehyde (3u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/coagulant (2u, 1 purity)) from the epinephrine medipen to Constellado/(Volkan Magna) (NEWHP: 68.9)	(90, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:11	ATTACK	Constellado/(Volkan Magna) injected Constellado/(Volkan Magna) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: 68.9)	(90, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:13	ATTACK	Faverules/(Elena Levin) attacked Faverules/(Elena Levin) with medkit (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 39)	(101, 47, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:18	ATTACK	SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) slipped on the [soap]	(101, 53, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:20	ATTACK	SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) slipped on the [soap]	(101, 53, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:21	ATTACK	Faverules/(Elena Levin) healed Faverules/(Elena Levin) with suture (NEWHP: 46.5)	(101, 47, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:27	ATTACK	Vladoricious/(Vladin Heir) has died (BRUTE: 160, BURN: 55, TOX: 0, OXY: 7.33333, CLONE: 0)	(98, 58, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:27	ATTACK	Thorn16/(Thorn North) has died (BRUTE: 161.3, BURN: 49, TOX: 0, OXY: 7.33333, CLONE: 0)	(108, 47, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:28	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer) Has succumbed to death with -59.8 points of health!	(108, 47, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:28	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer) has died (BRUTE: 167.2, BURN: 5.4, TOX: 0, OXY: 40.2, CLONE: 0)	(108, 47, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:29	ATTACK	Sakke03/(Worships-The-Moon) slipped on the [soap]	(101, 53, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:30	ATTACK	Sakke03/(Worships-The-Moon) slipped on the [soap]	(101, 53, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:33	ATTACK	SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) healed SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) with suture (NEWHP: 45.9)	(93, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:36	ATTACK	SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) healed SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) with suture (NEWHP: 53.4)	(93, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:37	ATTACK	Faverules/(Elena Levin) attempted to inject NeverDawned/(Isabella Nozomu) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: -4.6)	(101, 48, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:37	ATTACK	Faverules/(Elena Levin) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/medicine/epinephrine (10u, 1 purity), /datum/reagent/toxin/formaldehyde (3u, 0.75 purity) and /datum/reagent/medicine/coagulant (2u, 1 purity)) from the epinephrine medipen to NeverDawned/(Isabella Nozomu) (NEWHP: -4.6)	(101, 48, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:37	ATTACK	Faverules/(Elena Levin) injected NeverDawned/(Isabella Nozomu) with the epinephrine medipen (Epinephrine, Formaldehyde and Sanguirite) (NEWHP: -4.6)	(101, 48, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:39	ATTACK	SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) healed SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) with suture (NEWHP: 63.4)	(93, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:41	ATTACK	Constellado/(Volkan Magna) grabbed *no key*/(Alexander) passive grab (NEWHP: 0)	(91, 53, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:41	ATTACK	SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) healed SilveredSoul/(Mister Honks) with suture (NEWHP: 73.4)	(93, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:42	ATTACK	Sakke03/(Worships-The-Moon) attacked [shuttle window] with the titanium	(105, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:42	ATTACK	Faverules/(Elena Levin) grabbed NeverDawned/(Isabella Nozomu) passive grab (NEWHP: -3.5)	(101, 48, 2)	Emergency Shuttle
07:05:42	ATTACK	RazeWing/(Jake Ahriman) has died (BRUTE: 188.5, BURN: 17, TOX: 3, OXY: 15, CLONE: 0)	(98, 52, 2)	Emergency Shuttle

[Vekter]

It's worth noting the scale and size of the explosions you were causing, since you seem to have left those details out.

Explosion with size (2, 4, 8, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (152,139,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).

This is one of the bombs you threw, probably the largest. Your others are in the ballpark of 1/3/7 strength, where 1 is devastating (tile completely destroyed, anything on it gibbed), 3 is heavy (tile mostly destroyed, anything on it probably dead), and 7 is light (tiles not destroyed but high brute damage and delimbing to anything on it).



The above shows the range of your smallest grenade. Anything in that range is losing at least one limb.

I decided to recreate one of your grenades in a test to see if I was correct about it actually gibbing, and yup.



I have other opinions/comments about this but I can't really note them here due to peanut rules. This is mostly to point out the scale at which you were causing destruction as you tried to kill the dragon and nuke ops.

[Lawlolawl]

It's worth noting the scale and size of the explosions you were causing, since you seem to have left those details out.

Explosion with size (2, 4, 8, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (152,139,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).

This is one of the bombs you threw, probably the largest. Your others are in the ballpark of 1/3/7 strength, where 1 is devastating (tile completely destroyed, anything on it gibbed), 3 is heavy (tile mostly destroyed, anything on it probably dead), and 7 is light (tiles not destroyed but high brute damage and delimbing to anything on it).



The above shows the range of your smallest grenade. Anything in that range is losing at least one limb.

I decided to recreate one of your grenades in a test to see if I was correct about it actually gibbing, and yup.



I have other opinions/comments about this but I can't really note them here due to peanut rules. This is mostly to point out the scale at which you were causing destruction as you tried to kill the dragon and nuke ops.

Well first of all I'm not a coder so I'm not familiar with how explosions and their damage / radii are calculated. Plus with the dynamic codebase of /tg/ no one really knows how much

As I said, I don't make these all that often so I can't say I know for certain how much damage they do nor is there a way to actually test them (without actually bombing the station or a simulated structure resembling the station, of course). Even with TTVs you can't know the explosive radius without actually expending the bomb during anomaly refining, the simulations only give you the temperature and pressure and unless you're one of the 0.1% of people who read every single line of BYOND code in the codebase and are capable of calculating the explosive yields you can't realistically expect me to know exactly how much damage it will cause.

[Lawlolawl]

It's worth noting the scale and size of the explosions you were causing, since you seem to have left those details out.

Well as I said I don't do chemnades all that often so I wouldn't know exactly how much damage they would do. In fact I guess I learnt something new today with regards to how explosion damage works and scales with your visualization. I always thought only spaced tiles had damage, there's no obvious visual effects for explosions beyond the spaced tiles so I always assumed spaced tiles were the damage radius. Also intuitively one would assume that energy is dissipated with the intensity being inversely proportional to the radius squared but apparently that's not how it works in the code.

Unless what you're saying is that everyone who makes one is expected to know the exact damage radius or something like that by calculating it by reading the BYOND code beforehand and simulating it in a test server before you're allowed to use them. At the end of the day there's no in-game method for testing the explosive yield of these things (how did you do the thing which showed the damage radius? is that an admin command or something) and even for TTVs the only way to know is if you expend the TTV during anomaly refining (simulations only give the temperature and pressure which I have no idea how to convert to like explosive radius or damage). Your character has no way of knowing IC how much damage some arbitrary mixture of chems would do as well, so it's not particularly within RP either.

[Vekter]

Well first of all I'm not a coder so I'm not familiar with how explosions and their damage / radii are calculated. Plus with the dynamic codebase of /tg/ no one really knows how much

As I said, I don't make these all that often so I can't say I know for certain how much damage they do nor is there a way to actually test them (without actually bombing the station or a simulated structure resembling the station, of course). Even with TTVs you can't know the explosive radius without actually expending the bomb during anomaly refining, the simulations only give you the temperature and pressure and unless you're one of the 0.1% of people who read every single line of BYOND code in the codebase and are capable of calculating the explosive yields you can't realistically expect me to know exactly how much damage it will cause.

Fair warning: This is creeping into peanut territory, so if a forum admin feels it's crossed that line, they may delete it.

If you aren't certain exactly how much damage your explosive will do, then I would recommend not throwing six of them around the station in the general vicinity of threats.

All of your posturing about how you're not a coder so you aren't responsible for knowing how explosives work changes literally nothing because the first bomb you threw was your biggest.

Explosion with size (2, 5, 11, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (152,139,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).

You don't need to be able to read the code or even to test it on your own server to throw one, realize you just blew up the majority of the main hallway and surrounding areas, and go "Oh fuck, okay, maybe I don't use these".

Also, you can download the game's code and run it locally to test stuff like this if you're really interested in finding out what it does. It's nowhere near as hard as it sounds and folks in #coding-general on our Discord will be happy to help you set it up.

[MrrFiish]

First of all yeah I did get the wrong round number, that is a mistake on my part completely.
Second of all, as this is, I don't really plan to remove this ban. In our ticket you only really seem to care that you killed the nukie and not the fact that you spaced the entire shuttle To quote you, "Nukie would have killed us anyway, the ship was like right next to the shuttle" which isn't exactly the best reasoning. The main issue here is while you may have been hitting the antagonists with your grenades, you also hit crew, along with spacing the halls and shuttle, harming more people than the grenades themselves.

I spoke with multiple other admins about this ban and the general consensus is that this is justified, after you had thrown the first one you probably should not have thrown the next five, especially in a crowded area. The main issue here is you did not care at all about what damage you caused as long as you blew up the antag.

[Timberpoes]

First point: This is not a novel situation. As a result, there is infact a headmin ruling from 2021 on this topic:

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings

Weapons of Mass Destruction to counter antagonists
Use of Weapons of Mass Destruction is acceptable if the target antagonist is an overwhelming force and is on the verge of defeating the station, such as Nuclear Operatives, Cult, etc.

That is a creative paraphrasing for the operative part of that ruling:
viewtopic.php?p=609255#p609255

As a hater of bombs I think max caps are ok to use if the station is gonna be owned from the thing you’re bombing so things like nuke ops if it appears they’re winning, cult is fine, anything where it looks like the station is going to be btfo’d if the thing is allowed to live (I’d even consider murderboners fair game if they’ve proven too much for security). As long as you can justify with your imperfect information I can’t really fault you for it.

Blob being immune to bombs would be harder to justify but those can usually be communicated between everyone easier.

I think there's little argument that nuke ops itself is one of the antag types that can be WMD'd.

So I'd like MrrFiish and the player to hash out if, quote, "it look[ed] like the station [was] going to be btfo’d if the thing [was] allowed to live". To steal the paraphrased ruling's wording: Were the nuke ops on the verge of defeating the station?

Second point: Ignorance or lack of experience when using explosives or other weapons of mass destruction is not an excuse. You don't get a free pass to fuck around without also finding out.

Toxins/Ordnance has a testing area where you can use explosives in a live firing range. There's a mass driver where you can shove your explosive over to the testing range, then activate it remotely. Ask for permission IC to use that if you want to find out how big the explosives you're trying to make are.

If you don't know what you're doing with your WMD, don't use them in a way that will negatively impact other players. If you kill innocent people with them either through malice OR ignorance, you will shoulder the consequences of doing so.

[MrrFiish]

Alright so the question is, was the station on the verge of destruction, enough so that these bombs were valid.

As for the first bombs, targeting the dragon, was the dragon on the verge of destroying the station?

[2023-07-16 06:22:00.085] GAME: BlueMemesauce/(Space Dragon) was spawned as a Space Dragon by an event. (Space (167,61,2))
[2023-07-16 06:29:21.780] GAME-EMOTE: BlueMemesauce/(Qinglong) screeches as its wings turn to dust and it collapses on the floor, its life extinguished. (Starboard Primary Hallway (148,137,2))

I think it could be argued a dragon on third rift could possibly qualify, however the dragon lasted about 7 minutes before being killed, so it only got one rift down.

As for the nukies, you said it yourself but the nukie on the shuttle that you bombed was in crit (you assumed wallshoved.) Either way, I don't think a nukie who is on the floor without the disk can be considered a threat that is moments away from ending the station. Maybe if the nukie had grabbed the disk or was about to arm the nuke this would be better, though as you said captain was alive on the shuttle meaning they most likely did not have the disk (which they did not.) As it is, you bombed an early dragon and a crit nukie, causing a lot of collateral.

[Lawlolawl]

First of all yeah I did get the wrong round number, that is a mistake on my part completely.
Second of all, as this is, I don't really plan to remove this ban. In our ticket you only really seem to care that you killed the nukie and not the fact that you spaced the entire shuttle To quote you, "Nukie would have killed us anyway, the ship was like right next to the shuttle" which isn't exactly the best reasoning. The main issue here is while you may have been hitting the antagonists with your grenades, you also hit crew, along with spacing the halls and shuttle, harming more people than the grenades themselves.

I spoke with multiple other admins about this ban and the general consensus is that this is justified, after you had thrown the first one you probably should not have thrown the next five, especially in a crowded area. The main issue here is you did not care at all about what damage you caused as long as you blew up the antag.

I did not throw 5, read the logs. I primed 3 in total, the rest were because I got hit by the blast myself and it detonated the ones in my pockets / bag.

[Lawlolawl]

As a hater of bombs I think max caps are ok to use if the station is gonna be owned from the thing you’re bombing so things like nuke ops if it appears they’re winning, cult is fine, anything where it looks like the station is going to be btfo’d if the thing is allowed to live (I’d even consider murderboners fair game if they’ve proven too much for security). As long as you can justify with your imperfect information I can’t really fault you for it.

Well the poster also said they'd consider murderboners fair game if they've proven too much for security. That was exactly the case: in both cases there was no security or any command role dealing with the threat, in the first case the dragon was running through the halls attacking everyone on sight and there were no seccies chasing it when I decided to throw the nade.

And then in the second case the nukie was murderboning the shuttle, the captain / acting captain was doing nothing to help and the HOS was dead. Seccies were either taking escape pods or just completely MIA. None of us have any way of knowing how much HP the nukie had left and as long as there was no death rattle it meant the nukie wasn't completely dead yet, so I took the opportunity to finish the nukie off before they could do more damage.

Again, despite your claims of massive collateral I would like to point out that ~10 ish people still survived on the escape shuttle, which was EVERYONE who didn't go out of their way to fight the nukie.

[Lawlolawl]

First of all yeah I did get the wrong round number, that is a mistake on my part completely.
Second of all, as this is, I don't really plan to remove this ban. In our ticket you only really seem to care that you killed the nukie and not the fact that you spaced the entire shuttle To quote you, "Nukie would have killed us anyway, the ship was like right next to the shuttle" which isn't exactly the best reasoning. The main issue here is while you may have been hitting the antagonists with your grenades, you also hit crew, along with spacing the halls and shuttle, harming more people than the grenades themselves.

I spoke with multiple other admins about this ban and the general consensus is that this is justified, after you had thrown the first one you probably should not have thrown the next five, especially in a crowded area. The main issue here is you did not care at all about what damage you caused as long as you blew up the antag.

As for me not having the "best reasoning" it's not like I have some god mode where I know EVERY SINGLE THING which happened. Unlike admins, I only have MY OWN CHARACTER'S POV for info. You people need to be aware of that. I don't have a way to check how many nukies there are or know how many of them without going out of my way to do so as a ghost observer and until the round end screen shows up. You started the ticket BEFORE I got to the round end screen.

The whole reason why in my opinion the nades were valid in fighting nukies is because they get a shit load of gear which makes it trivial for them to kill any civilians they like (and it wasn't warops so no one was "prepared" to fight them) and the explosive levelled the playing field and helped prevent a murderbone on the shuttle. Again, look at the logs: most of the damage the nukie took was from shuttle turrets, not the random doc who was sawing them for 5 damage per hit with some civilian-grade weapon. If the nukie hadn't gotten hit by the .50 cal turrets they definitely could have murderboned the entire shuttle.

At the end of the day if ya'll are just hell bent against explosives in non-antagonist hands why don't you just remove all of them from the game and only let antags buy them. Not that hard to remove all the explosive chemical reactions. Anomaly refining can be reworked so whatever. Answer this question, if you wanna punish me for using what's basically a part of the game in a realistic manner.

It seems like the whole objective of this is just to allow antags to murderbone even more without having any fear that maybe a member of crew might try to suicide maxcap them.

Anyway, I'm not here to argue with the EXACT SAME ADMIN who chose to ban me because they'd obviously be justifying the ban. Can we get a headmin in here instead?

[Vekter]

Anyway, I'm not here to argue with the EXACT SAME ADMIN who chose to ban me because they'd obviously be justifying the ban. Can we get a headmin in here instead?

Timberpoes is a head admin, he's asking you and Fish to come to terms on whether or not the situation was untenable enough that your grenades - had they hit their mark - would have improved the situation as opposed to worsening it.

Also, your claim of Fish having some weird bias where he'd always uphold the ban he placed doesn't hold water - there's plenty of situations where we've overturned bans we placed that we felt were justified at the time.

E: I noticed something in your rambling and I feel like I need to address it.

As for the dragon, I wasn't really able to tell if anyone else died with the space dragon nade as explosions don't really show up in the attack logs

They show up in game.txt and we can match them up time-wise and location-wise with other players' deaths.

Code: Select all

01:15:47	GAME	Explosion with size (2, 5, 11, 0) in (Starboard Primary Hallway (152,139,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas).
01:15:52	ATTACK	Vladoricious/(Vladin Heir) has died (BRUTE: 159, BURN: 47.5, TOX: 0, OXY: 7, CLONE: 0)	(147, 138, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
01:15:55	ATTACK	Lawlolawl/(Terry Thomas) has died (BRUTE: 0, BURN: 30, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(141, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
01:15:55	ATTACK	Edith124/(Samuel Digson) has died (BRUTE: 159.8, BURN: 71.3, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(145, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway
01:15:56	ATTACK	Solrob/(Cash Singh) has died (BRUTE: 195.8, BURN: 26.3, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(142, 133, 2)	Bar Lounge
01:15:57	ATTACK	Enderpainter/(Milky Way AX) has died (BRUTE: 221.9, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0)	(136, 137, 2)	Starboard Primary Hallway

Those deaths all happened well within 1) a 5 second window of your explosion and 2) the blast radius of your grenade (or very close nearby). Even if we remove Cash Singh's death, given that he was close but not actually in the immediate area, you still killed three other people with that grenade. "BUT THE DRAGON-" No, the majority of the dragon's damage is done with fire. Carp weren't even involved; if they were, they would've died, too. These were caused by brute, ie your explosive.

You didn't even kill the dragon with it, man. You kind of weakened it.

[Lawlolawl]

Timberpoes is a head admin, he's asking you and Fish to come to terms on whether or not the situation was untenable enough that your grenades - had they hit their mark - would have improved the situation as opposed to worsening it.

Also, your claim of Fish having some weird bias where he'd always uphold the ban he placed doesn't hold water - there's plenty of situations where we've overturned bans we placed that we felt were justified at the time.

Fish is a trialmin, i.e. any "bad bans" will impact their record and affect their promotion etc. Unless that's not how the system works. In any case, as far as I can tell we're not hearing from any of the other admins who were also present that round.


Additionally, since you are involved in coding, can you answer the more important question: If explosives are so frowned upon that they are effectively hard banned with the exception of bombing a cult summoning Nar'Sie and bombing a nukie dragging a primed nuke or one obviously in possession of the disc, why can't you just remove them from the game?

Antags already don't rely on chems / ordnance to make bombs, with the exception of blood brothers which nobody actually plays (selects from antag selection) because it's unviable without a good department combo.

[Vekter]

Fish is a trialmin, i.e. any "bad bans" will impact their record and affect their promotion etc. Unless that's not how the system works. In any case, as far as I can tell we're not hearing from any of the other admins who were also present that round.

This is not how the system works, by a longshot. If anything, trial admins have more room to make mistakes due to them being newer. I'm mostly chiming in because I often do so when I feel my input helps other admins make their points and when I can help point out rulings that might be pertinent to the situation.

Additionally, since you are involved in coding, can you answer the more important question: If explosives are so frowned upon that they are effectively hard banned with the exception of bombing a cult summoning Nar'Sie and bombing a nukie dragging a primed nuke or one obviously in possession of the disc, why can't you just remove them from the game?

Primarily for antag purposes and because there are valid uses for them that don't break the rules. Smaller, more concentrated explosives would have been better here.

Antags already don't rely on chems / ordnance to make bombs, with the exception of blood brothers which nobody actually plays (selects from antag selection) because it's unviable without a good department combo.

This isn't true; we see people make explosive grenades from time to time but antags often opt for something like phlogiston/CLF3 combinations because they make an entire department a fucking chernobyl for about an hour, which is way more powerful than blowing them up.

[TheFinalPotato]

We give you content that can be used in many ways. This is a sandbox game.
You are bound more by the rules then by the game, that's why we have admins. It's to some extent a crutch, but it also helps ensure a good faith player, which is really what the rules are about.

We don't remove things because the admin team decides they should be more restricted. That's the admin team doing their job, at least to some extent. The separation is absolute, and it's worthwhile to give them space.
This is all assuming bombs are actually banned, which seems simply false

[Pandarsenic]

Fish is a trialmin, i.e. any "bad bans" will impact their record and affect their promotion etc. Unless that's not how the system works. In any case, as far as I can tell we're not hearing from any of the other admins who were also present that round.

Another borderline peanut, and partially addressed by the above, but I'm going to try to get this thread back on track by explaining this: everything affects the promotion. Indeed, virtually every trialmin is expected to repeal at least one ban made with incomplete information, a misinterpretation of the rules, etc. Repealing bad bans is a positive mark and maintaining bad bans is a negative mark. However, keep in mind, repealing good bans when receive pushback that doesn't actually justify the situation would also be a negative mark.

What Timberpoes has come in for as a headmin (and what Vekter is trying to keep you focused on) is the relevant rulings that this ban will be judged on.

Let me try to be succinct: What you need to do is explain what you personally saw and experienced before the kabooms - everything you perceived that led to your decision to deploy these explosives - that you believe justifies your use of kabooms under the ruling that you can get as explosive as you like if the alternative is at least as bad.

Until and unless you can provide this information, the banning admin (trialmin or not) should not lift the ban. At such a time as you do provide this information, the banning admin should lift the ban if your reasoning holds up.

Litigating the justice of the rule on when-kabooms itself is not a useful route here, though you can create a policy thread about it in addition if you believe it's Not Good. You need to address, for this thread, how your actions were right in the rules you have, not the rules you would prefer existed.

[Lawlolawl]

Ok I've already said what I needed to say but I'll just state it again.

SCENARIO 1:
> I see a space dragon running through halls fighting everything that happened to be in its path.
> There was no security / command personnel at the scene doing anything to stop the space dragon.
> I have no way of knowing, IC OR OOC how long the dragon had spawned, what its objectives were, and whether or not it had done ANY of its objectives. It is safe to say that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE EXCEPT AN ADMIN WITH LOGS IS CAPABLE OF DOING SO, and even then it would only be post facto.

I therefore view the dragon as a threat to the whole station and bomb it. Vector claims I unjustifiably killed 3 other people. As far as I can tell none of the 3 people had guns or any weapons which would be effective in killing the dragon, so if I did ABSOLUTELY NOTHING it is likely that the dragon which would have had 200+ HP before the nade could still have killed them as they were not actively RUNNING AWAY from the dragon as the chemnade detonated, and even then I believe space dragons have enough movespeed to catch crew with normal move speeds, and dragons also get a long ranged attack too.

If you claim that the dragon was NOT a significant enough threat, then you should also be banning some of the non-security crew who were also helping to validhunt the dragon under rule 4. The exceptions under rule 4 is "if a security force is present" and "unless you have a good in-character roleplay reason to believe a global or round-ending threat exists". Given that you have not done so, the dragon qualifies as a "global or round-ending threat".

SCENARIO 2:
> A nukie with an Elite MOD and a gun is shooting up the escape shuttle. Only like 2 other people (as I recall) were fighting the nukie, with civilian weapons too which were ineffective; most of the damage the nukie took before the chemnade was from the escape shuttle turrets.
> I have no way of knowing whether or not the nukie had the disk, or how much health they had via IC OR OOC, but given that they were shooting up the shuttle with no consequences and no security was present to stop them either.
> The only people who did die on the escape shuttle were those who were actively involved in fighting the nukie. Captain / acting captain was not helping at all and there was no security at all (HoS was already dead).
> Nukies are commonly known to possess microbomb implants and the nukie did indeed have and trigger their microbomb implant, which would have also likely killed the exact same people including myself if we were just meleeing the nukie, with the difference only measuring in seconds. (There was also a welder tank nearby which also resulted in secondary explosions as well.)

07:04:56 GAME Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Emergency Shuttle (108,56,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.
07:04:56 GAME Explosion with size (3, 6, 12, 0) in (Emergency Shuttle (108,56,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer).
07:04:57 GAME Reagent explosion reaction occurred at Emergency Shuttle (108,56,2). Last Fingerprint: lawlolawl.
07:04:57 GAME Explosion with size (2, 4, 8, 0) in (Emergency Shuttle (108,56,2)). Possible cause: the chemical grenade. Last fingerprints: lawlolawl/(Duncan Sawyer).
07:04:57 GAME Explosion with size (0, 1, 4, 6) in (Emergency Shuttle (107,50,2)). Possible cause: the fuel tank. Last fingerprints: *null*.
07:05:00 GAME Explosion with size (1, 3, 8, 8) in (Emergency Shuttle (98,56,2)). Possible cause: the microbomb implant. Last fingerprints: *null*.

That is all I have to say.

[MrrFiish]

> I have no way of knowing, IC OR OOC how long the dragon had spawned, what its objectives were, and whether or not it had done ANY of its objectives. It is safe to say that ABSOLUTELY NO ONE EXCEPT AN ADMIN WITH LOGS IS CAPABLE OF DOING SO, and even then it would only be post facto.

There is an announcement when the dragon spawns

If you claim that the dragon was NOT a significant enough threat, then you should also be banning some of the non-security crew who were also helping to validhunt the dragon under rule 4. The exceptions under rule 4 is "if a security force is present" and "unless you have a good in-character roleplay reason to believe a global or round-ending threat exists". Given that you have not done so, the dragon qualifies as a "global or round-ending threat".

The difference here is that they weren't using bombs. Bombs can be used if the situation is DIRE and that usually means the nukies currently arming the nuke or cult about to summon Nar'Sie, and even then you should aim to minimize collateral.

SCENARIO 2:
> A nukie with an Elite MOD and a gun is shooting up the escape shuttle. Only like 2 other people (as I recall) were fighting the nukie, with civilian weapons too which were ineffective; most of the damage the nukie took before the chemnade was from the escape shuttle turrets.
> I have no way of knowing whether or not the nukie had the disk, or how much health they had via IC OR OOC, but given that they were shooting up the shuttle with no consequences and no security was present to stop them either.
> The only people who did die on the escape shuttle were those who were actively involved in fighting the nukie. Captain / acting captain was not helping at all and there was no security at all (HoS was already dead).
> Nukies are commonly known to possess microbomb implants and the nukie did indeed have and trigger their microbomb implant, which would have also likely killed the exact same people including myself if we were just meleeing the nukie, with the difference only measuring in seconds. (There was also a welder tank nearby which also resulted in secondary explosions as well.)

You should not be bombing your own emergency shuttle, especially with the crew on it, as a non antagonist. There is almost no situation I can think of where bombing shuttle as a non antag would be valid. Nukies would have to be much worse to warrant a bombing like this, such as them dragging the dead captain or visibly picking up the disk. You may not have known if they had the disk but 1) why would they be on the shuttle if not for the disk and 2) you should have good reasoning to know they have the disk or are about to obtain it to bomb your own crew/shuttle.

[Vekter]

I have one last thing to say in this thread and I'll see myself out.

I think the miscommunication here is that you're having trouble differentiating between a localized, immediate threat and one that would destroy the station.

Your attempting to help by killing the antags in question is not the issue - the rules very clearly state that you're allowed to intervene in both cases because both space dragons and nuke ops are round-ending threats. They are both capable of destroying the station, so the limitation on sec only being able to handle these antags is removed. Everyone can have a little beating the piss out of a nuke op, as a treat.

The issue is the scale at which you intervened. Traditionally, using a weapon of mass destruction against antags like these is reserved for situations where the station is in imminent danger. That means cases where the round is about to end if you don't act. It is a lot more understandable to blow a hole in the station and possibly kill 1-2 people if the alternative is "literally everyone on the station dies in the next 30 seconds".

You have failed to prove this was the case here. Even if you take into account that you might not know exactly how long it's been since the initial announcement that a dragon has spawned and when you threw the grenade, the game provides notifications when they have fully charged a rift. They have to spawn and charge three rifts to win (and thus destroy the station), so if you haven't seen two of those notifications, then things aren't at a critical point just yet. Nuke ops are a little more nebulous because you can't tell if they have the disk or not, but if one is standing around fucking about and killing people in evac, odds are they either don't have the disk or are trying to get it. Neither of those situations warrant using high explosives.

tl;dr There's a large difference between "the round is going to end in the next minute if you don't kill the antag" and "there's a direct, critical threat to life in the direct vicinity".

[Timberpoes]

Since you've now reached the point you're saltposting in other people's appeals due to excessive sand clogging up your urethra, I think we can just wrap this one up.

The very first substantive rule we have is Rule 1. It says don't be a dick. It asks you not to ruin other people's shifts unprompted.

You don't have to read a hundred lines deep into the rules to connect being responsible for excessive collateral when it's not warranted with being excluded from the game for a bit. Its right at the top.

Have a little empathy for others, princess. I understand it feels shitty to be banned. I've been banned under circumstances I felt were unjust, too.

But you can't just throw bombs around like that when you're actually worse and a bigger danger to the shift and crew than the antag you're gunning for is at that moment in time.

Exceptions to that fall under the rule of roleplay/SS13 cool.

If you save the day and you're the hero, you win. If you fuck it up, you probably end up banned.

These are decisions you should not make unless and until you understand the possible consequences for failure, and whether you should be doing those actions at all.