[Subtlegraces] Kenzie Smith-Nonantag bombing.

[Mandurrrh]

Byond account and character name:Mandurrh/Kenzie Smith
Banning admin:SubtleGraces
Ban reason and length:You have been banned by subtlegraces.
Reason: Retaliatory bombing as a non-antagonist. Two innocent casualties..
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 4320 minutes.
Time ban was placed (including time zone):1:55AM eastern
Your side of the story:I was working toxins on sybil during a wizard round. Wizard issued wands so everyone went crazy. We had hostile wizard, aliens, and generally everyone fighting eachother. I had spilled plasma in toxins from clicking the wrong canister and was cleaning it up when people started running in and out of science stealing plasma or shooting people. I was scrubbing the air when Smity ran up on me with the security gas mask yelling. I kept going but he started running into toxins storage then toxins and he comes up to me scrubbing and just starts beating me with a fire extinguisher. My internals start running out of air and Im blinking in red trying to run away I don't even get out of the hallway before Im in almost crit I had nothing on me at all but the two bombs I made at shift start so I blew it up to kill my killer. Unfortunately RD walked in after I pressed send signal and got caught in the blast.
Why you think you should be unbanned:It wasn't my intention to be rulebreaking/griefing/greytiding I was just using my only defense when being killed during a very hectic round. No one else was there when I pressed send signal so I'm sorry the RD walked in and got hit too. I did try to run. There was no background for why he was attacking me so I had no idea what was going on. I never left toxins/science with my bombs so there was no intent to blow them as non antag. I only blew my bomb up because I had nothing else to defend myself. Subtle was pretty nice about it and with the population and hectic I understand why they would send me here instead of trying to figure out what happened via ahelp. The round was waiting for the shuttle so a lot was going on. And I sincerely apologize to the two people who got killed because of it. If I had known someone was around to help me I wouldn't have pressed it but I was about to be knocked out. I hope you can forgive me.

Heres the attack part where I blow my bomb at the end: http://pastebin.com/xXSDmNVS

Here are the entire rounds logs: http://pastebin.com/wqYKzgN6

[Mandurrrh]

I was reading back through resolved appeals to establish some sort of precedent and found this ban http://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=172

Similar circumstances and consequences with his ban reduced to one day. I'd like to point out two essential differences that I hope will make you reconsider my ban:

-User in the example appeal had several warnings from admins for bombing as a nonantag before being banned. I have never bombed as a nonantag before and have had no warnings. There is no history of me bombing so no reoccurring incidents that would imply likeliness to repeat the infraction.

-User in the example had intent to use bombs as a nonantag and actively pursued a target outside of toxins/science. I did not make my bomb and pursue the antag in this scenario. The antag bombarded and attacked me in toxins/science. I used my bomb in self defense as my only defense in a desperate and chaotic situation. So the creation of my bombs was intended for science or use for the wizard event occurring.

Hope the example precedent is helpful to you as well.

[Brotemis]

Bombs aren't self defense. I think that's pretty much all that need be said.

[Subtle]

I think that thread and others like it serve to point out how much of a bad idea bomb-warnings are; the person in question obviously kept doing it.

That said, yep, pretty much. I'm sorry but you can't take out all of RnD because someone is attacking you. Innocent people died, research was lost and the entire department was rendered unusable. Like Brotemis pointed out you don't have the option to cause that much collateral damage in self-defense without some extreme extenuating circumstances or a whole lot more caution. It just doesn't excuse everything else that happened because of your bomb.

The length is very lenient, the circumstances have been considered in that way. It's still going to be a ban though.

[Mandurrrh]

If someone was killing me what's stopping them from continuing on and killing the rest of the crew after I'm dead? My only means of stopping this man was the bomb I had in my bag. Again I had not left toxins. I tried to run away. And there was no one around when I was about to die. Only thing I could do was use the bomb and stop him as well. I'm sorry about the RD but it may have very well saved 50 other lives by taking out a murderer.

Again I'd like to stress this was not a planned or well thought out scenario. It was in the midst of chaos and attack. I apologize for breaking the rule but its not a situation I have any history or habit of just simply a mistake.

Also RnD was destroyed by the canister bombs. As well as robotics and most of escapes. My bomb went off in the hall while trying to make a run for it.

I'd hope you'd reconsider due to no malicious intent and no history but if you must make an example out of me there's not much I can do. The punshiment is far worse then the example I provided for a precedent so I'm unsure of why you were more lenient with that player. But again not much I can do but take it in stride and try and offer my argument reasonably and in a mature manner. Thank you for taking the time to read my appeal. I hope we can figure out in the future our differences.

[Subtle]

Well considering I was standing in R&D when your bomb went off...
I assure you research was perfectly fine before that.

If the only thing you have to stop a murderer is a bomb then you simply can't justify using it at the cost of other lives and the station's welfare. There's no "greater good" here. I'd say the leniency granted in the case you cite was an error in judgement, one admins now recognize as such in most cases of poor behavior with bombs.

Suicide bombing is poor form in 99% of situations and I apologize but there's no intention to remove the ban at this time.

[Mandurrrh]

If you we're standing in RnD then you would have died fr the canister bomb that exploded right after mine. And you would have known that canister bomb was in the middle of a plasma flooded RnD as well as robotics and it burnt to the ground. You can even see me comment it in the logs.

Again if this guy had lived he could have killed everyone so since I was already in near crit and there was so much chaos going on I used the only means I had to stop him from harming anyone else. One life is definitely less important than fifty.

When you say it was done in poor taste I am very offended as I cannot stress enough it was not a planned thing. I wanted to stop a murderer. So my sacrifice for everyone else with good intentions is being put down by your judgement.

And you did not address why the former example was receiving a less severe sentence then myself. I hope you re read the logs and take a step back to consider personal judgements aside I was not malicious in any form and you really are being a bit harsh here.

[Mandurrrh]

If the only thing you have to stop a murderer is a bomb then you simply can't justify using it at the cost of other lives and the station's

I understand this now but how was I to know that at the time of the offense? There is no rule or policy on it. I've never had infraction of the sorts before or warning. As far as I knew as long as I didn't leave toxins and bomb the station I was safe. So again I ask you to consider this aspect of the situation in issuing me a sentence longer than the example crew member with prior offenses and warnings that had intent to leave and bomb an antag.

[Subtle]

If I accepted good intentions as an excuse for bombing we'd see it every round, also what "might have happened" after your bomb is absolutely irrelevant.

Longer than them? You got a three-day ban for killing two innocent people and detonating the entire R&D department. You're extremely lucky there's no science-sector jobban attached to this. You acted hastily and made a mistake, killing innocent people has always gotten you a ban and that's what happened here. It would be the same ban if you'd killed those people with a lasergun in the course of self-defense. With all due respect you should quit while you're ahead.

There was absolutely no silver-lining or greater good to be argued for here. You blew people up for revenge against the antag harming you.

We've all realized the mistake in validating people who spend pages making justifications for their bad bombings. I didn't make those calls; there's no personal judgement to be made.
Using Tunder's multiple appeals as a precedent of any kind only serves to further elucidate why we shouldn't have been lenient with those situations in the first place. Besides, in the situation you're referring to there were no casualties other than the bomber himself.

The people you killed would have died anyway? That's a terrible excuse and, again, the department you claim to have been "destroyed" or "flooded" was fine. I was working in it.

[Mandurrrh]

I definitely did not blow anyone up for revenge against someone killing me I blew up myself and the killer to stop him from killing. And I never said anything of the sorts that would have implied two innocents died and would have anyways. I've been sincere in my apologies for the rd walking in last minute. And if you read the logs from the original posts you'll see there was indeed canister bombs and plasma fires set to science ten seconds after my bomb.

[Subtle]

I'm well aware, and let me reiterate;

1. That's retaliation. You can't justify innocent two deaths and the loss of a department because he might have harmed someone else.

2. The bombs and fire, in retrospect, (since you couldn't possibly have known when you opened the valve) are a piss-poor excuse for bombing something.

3. It is not the responsibility of your innocent victims to avoid the bomb. Sorry doesn't cut it.

4. I'm absolutely certain you couldn't see those victims through the walls. Doesn't change the fact that you did kill them.

[Mandurrrh]

I'm well aware, and let me reiterate;

1. That's retaliation. You can't justify innocent two deaths and the loss of a department because he might have harmed someone else.

2. The bombs and fire, in retrospect, (since you couldn't possibly have known when you opened the valve) are a piss-poor excuse for bombing something.

3. It is not the responsibility of your innocent victims to avoid the bomb. Sorry doesn't cut it.

4. I'm absolutely certain you couldn't see those victims through the walls. Doesn't change the fact that you did kill them.

I can see that this is upsetting you the further we discuss it and slowly you're describing me as more and more of a malicious person. So I won't add anymore because again I am sincerely sorry for what happened and only had the best intentions. I don't want you to become upset and have ill will towards me. You should push for a policy to be made to prevent future users from ending up in my situation. Had I known it was against the rules I would have just died. Thank you for taking to time to consider my appeal.