[PKPenguin321] -Repukan- 「I fought the law and the law won」

[D&B]

Byond account and character name: Repukan - Donatello Versus

Banning admin: PKPenguin321
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Servers (Both Basil and Sybil)

Ban reason and length: Reason: "Got several reports from players and admins about shitcurity. About a minute after I told him this and that I'd be watching him he random searched someone in code blue. Toodles!"
This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes.

Time ban was placed (including time zone): 2017-04-18, 10:49:35 PM EST

Your side of the story: We get reports of a med bay cult early on. After dropping off people that kept breaking into the bridge for no good reason and helping put down the lizard chaplain that kept smoking sec in order to free the intruders (mostly throwing a flashbang and handcuffing squatters.) we get reports of a cult in med bay. As we move on to arrest the medical staff, orders are shouted over radio and such. I moved in to arrest the lizard chemist, and since we had no chaplain and they were non human, HoS called for their execution. This was carried out in chemistry due to easy access to glass. Later on as we arrest more people, one of the lawyers that got deputized to help with arrests slips and loses grip of Iris whateverthefucktheirlastnameis and Griff Griffith proceeds to steal them away. We secure the cultist (Iris) and I proceed to give Griff his stupid prize before throwing him in perma for stealing a prisoner. Later on we get reports of maxcaps being produced in science and I rush there and convince one of the scientists working RnD to surrender their backpack for a search, and confiscate three maxcaps total without further incident. Later on as I moved to check toxins, I get banned in front of a fleeing scientist, opening them to my access and my equipment.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Straight from the wiki

"Crew members may be searched by security with probable cause. "
*We had a cult on medbay.
*Several assistants and other random jobs were breaking into the bridge and stealing prisoners.
*We got alerted of maxcaps being produced in science and when I responded and arrived, one was in one of the windoor desks for anyone to grab.
*The scientist consented to the search after they were asked nicely verbally. This wasn't a silent tase cuff search.

If you wish to use anything that happened in previous rounds as fodder for this ban, please highlight which thing happened so I can provide context as to why the actions occurred.

[WarbossLincoln]

I thought the station code operating procedures were like space law, suggestions, or at most handled IC by a HOS or Captain who wants to enforce them. Otherwise you could ban a sec officer for having a weapon drawn when not making an arrest too.

[BeeSting12]

Hey, I was the HoS that round. I had actually told my officers to search medical staff and anyone suspicious due to the cult. Donatello was following my orders on that one. I also told him to kill and space the lizard cultist, as that is my policy for conversion antagonists- if there is not a method of deconversion immediately available or available within two minutes, kill them. The chaplain had already died due to being a shitter and smoking up the bridge, which an admin (Qbopper) bwoinked me about and told me it was okay after I explained. If Repukan actually deserves a ban for those actions, then I do too, because I'm the one who gave the order to him to do that.

[BeeSting12]

I'd actually like to see who complained, because if it's the idiots that were rushing the bridge like some pseudo rev round then it's pretty much invalid.

[onleavedontatme]

I'd actually like to see who complained, because if it's the idiots that were rushing the bridge like some pseudo rev round then it's pretty much invalid.

Dead chat was full of "non violent" clock cultists (and a guy who had dragged a cultist away from security) angry they'd been executed.

[BeeSting12]

I'd actually like to see who complained, because if it's the idiots that were rushing the bridge like some pseudo rev round then it's pretty much invalid.

Dead chat was full of "non violent" clock cultists (and a guy who had dragged a cultist away from security) angry they'd been executed.

>nonviolent
>summoning a god that will turn the whole station to brass
>forcefully converting people
>NONVIOLENT
Oh and the minute they have their OP meme powers they won't be so nonviolent. I also got critted by a cultist on the shuttle so I know they're talking out their asses.

[D&B]

So Ratvar is a religion of peace you say?
Hmmmmmmmmm

[Qbopper]

The chaplain had already died due to being a imperfect person playing an imperfect game and smoking up the bridge, which an admin (Qbopper) bwoinked me about and told me it was okay after I explained. If Repukan actually deserves a ban for those actions, then I do too, because I'm the one who gave the order to him to do that.

the person being discussed here was exectued very early on in the round, and though I don't think it was an appropriate punishment, I know that quite a few admins wouldn't see it as a problem, so I went with (what I believed to be) the general consensus

the person appealing the ban did things such as

• sutnning an random person in the halls, cuffing them, then beating them with a harm baton as they were dragged to the brig
• bringing people to perma and continuing to harm baton those arrested
• being warned by pkp for the above, then after pkp said "I'm going to keep an eye on you this round",
• randomly searching during code blue (which used to be alright, but I don't believe it is any longer, hence the ban

No one is saying you can't be quick to crack down on a cult, but if you have someone stunned and cuffed, beating them with a harm baton is entirely unnecessary (I'm not sure if it was to crit or not) when they're an unarmed person alone in the halls, beating people in perma with a harm baton is entirely unnecessary, and I'd like to see the wiki page you're citing regarding searches because it's most likely not in line with the current admin policy

The scientist consented to the search after they were asked nicely verbally. This wasn't a silent tase cuff search.

I was afk during this/the ban and got back after it was applied, so I missed the context, but I'd like to see logs regarding it so I'll have to go diving

The ban likely wasn't applied because the search itself was wholly ridiculous and terrible, it's likely that for the entire round up to that point you were indiscriminately beating the shit out of people regardless if there was an immediate threat or not (but I'm not pkp so I won't speak for him)

I'd actually like to see who complained, because if it's the idiots that were rushing the bridge like some pseudo rev round then it's pretty much invalid.

Dead chat was full of "non violent" clock cultists (and a guy who had dragged a cultist away from security) angry they'd been executed.

Were you on during that round? I only remember me, pkp, and a little later sawrge, and I don't specifically remember anyone being mad about sec executing "non violent" cult members, but that could have happened later who knows

[onleavedontatme]

beating people in perma with a harm baton is entirely unnecessary

But explicitly allowed by the rules. Also I would argue it is actually necessary in a conversion mode to kill them.

Were you on during that round?

No, but I'm an idiot who argues about bans for fun so I read the logs for the round and looked as to why each person that was complaining died based on the ahelps/PMs/IC chatter/antag logs.

[Nilons]

>Appealing a day ban

While D&B is reputably heavy handed with security and punishments and if you wanna search people you could just up it to code red, this is a lil ridiculous, searching scientists reported making bombs on a cult round and searching people in the department reported to be cult as fuck seems perfectly reasonable.

[onleavedontatme]

I mean yeah he was playing like an asshole and its not fun to have security come beat you to death on a minor tip off but the mode actively punishes you if you don't play like that. You get weaker and dwindle in numbers as the round goes on and the bad guys not only get stronger but more numerous as well. It's why I've been so adamant about not adding more conversion modes, they require security to act like a deathsquad if they don't want to die.

>Appealing a day ban

We respond and punish people who remove others from the round for 5-20 minutes, it doesn't seem unreasonable that someone would want to argue over being removed for 1440 minutes (that and avoiding notes which will lead to longer bans later).

[D&B]

That random person you say was actually a shitter that decided to be funny and drag a cultist away from sec. The cultist was to be executed and we could have executed him too for aiding and abetting, but instead we just threw him in perma to release after the cult was thoroughly washed out.

I don't think it is ever a requirement to play nice with people that want to interfere with security just for the hell of it.

[Nabski]

I was one of the random searched medbay staff here (Viral, no clue it was even clock, eventually made security a shitty virus to give to Sloan/him, got killed for it and Sloan drank the cure in my pocket. Won that stupid prize. Figured that would be more fun than ahelping for random searches during a low security level).

His search seemed a little heavy handed, but he did make a mild attempt for a consent search rather than just silent tase strip. (I said no and got tased anyways). I feel like the issue isn't that you were doing random search, or harm batoning. One of the two and you likely would have been fine. Combine both and you got told to pull it back.From here you could do something like "AI LAW TWO RAISE THE ALERT LEVEL SO I CAN VALID SEARCHES WITH BETTER EXCUSE"I thought it started at green and needed to be raised one to search., Go maint hunting, pull it back a little, or just play passive and just keep shitting on idiot greyshirts outside the brig. Instead you continued on and won the stupid prize.

Ghost chat that round was hilariously salty. I've been waiting since I heard you ate the ban to see this appeal as it sounded like a spicy one.

[cedarbridge]

"AI LAW TWO RAISE THE ALERT LEVEL SO I CAN VALID SEARCHES WITH BETTER EXCUSE"

This doesn't exist.

[D&B]

Except I'm not going to risk other players lives icly and ignore the huge threat that is maxcaps being given out.

When the ban was handed out sec was with their hands full and still getting shit from assistants and cult. It's literally "respond fast before the cult blows the station or expands"

[iamgoofball]

When you play security during conversion, the game is designed around a two team deathmatch. You can argue sportmanship all you want and that they may be """""nonviolent""""""", but a nonviolent friendly tricord blob is still a blob. It's my job as Security to remove it.

Every single time I have NOT played super-hitler mode 9000 and completely gone on the war path against blob/rev/cult/clockcult, I get destroyed, and then deadchat demands I get banned for not powergaming hard enough. OOC is demanding I get (job)banned for not stopping the antag as captain/HoS.

So the next round I go full shitcurity on the antag of the round, because apparently that's what the players want. I execute greytiders who act like revs alongside revs. Deadchat and OOC is now demanding I be jobbanned for being shitcurity and powergaming and shit.

It's lose-lose when you play security. So stop shitting on security players for trying to do what players want and then getting told to fuck off.

Conversion antags snowball. They snowball HARD. You either stamp it out early or get converted/killed if you cant be converted without effort. Pretending this isnt the case is stupid.

Believe me, I'd love to be nicer. The problem is I get chewed the fuck out by players for it. Then I get chewed the fuck out by the admins for swinging the other way.

Make up your minds, please. I would post this in discussion, but I can't.

[Nabski]

How does the AI not being able to raise the alert level not exist. That comment was specifically about the "random search during code blue" part of this appeal.

When the ban was handed out sec was with their hands full and still getting shit from assistants and cult. It's literally "respond fast before the cult blows the station or expands"

That was my point. You could have dealt with just the being warned by handling the threats coming to security from assistants and cult and playing reactive, rather than continuing to to be aggressively proactive and "validated but mostly random" searching another department.

Not even remotely an admin, but the ban felt like a rule 0 temp ban when it could/should have been applied just to security and then we would have less bitching on both sides.

[imblyings]

For confirmed cults and revs, sec can be and are usually required to be incredibly shit by normal round standards to survive. Mass executions, executions on the spot, executions for certain suspicious behaviour, beating people, it's all fair game. The fact that dunked antags get salty in deadchat is not reason by itself for an admin to make any sort of action.

Security codes are in a weird limbo where no one has to follow them. Code red/delta in conjunction with appropriate IC incidents can be used to just ever so slightly justify certain actions but the random/non-random search parts are actually dealt with by possibly inconsistent individual admin rulings towards security powergaming. In any case, codes are too easily changed (or too hard to change) that it shouldn't be too relevant to an admin decision. What's more important is what the player knows at the time and how reasonably they act given the situation they know. I'm a bit surprised pkp mentioned it at all but we can wait for him to pop in before doing anything else.

>Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause.

The only part where the rules mention searches is rule 4. A cult seems like a reasonable prior cause for pre-emptive searches, so regardless of deadchat salt or actual shitcurity, I'm not sure why this ban was placed.

[Qbopper]

This sucks because of the aforementioned conversion modes requiring shitsec thing

On the one hand, we don't want to encourage shitty security play

On the other, what else can you really do in a cult round

To provide some context to the ban - pkp was likely a bit trigger happy as he had just asked me to take over adminning for a bit, as the previous round had some major issues regarding sec/ahelps/sodium. I don't particularly care whether or not the ban sticks and I think it's an unfortunate situation for everybody involved, I just wanted to contribute what my understanding (though limited) of the situation was

[imblyings]

It always has required 'shitsec'. A competent and robust team will have a chaplain and start aggressively and proactively deconverting and implanting but without a chaplain and a very competent team, proactively killing cultists/revs is the best you can do. Arguably, it's not shit at all, since it feels like mental gymnastics to call one side competent for quickly killing off security and snowballing but call one side shit for doing the same to the other side just to survive. As long as security players keep their boners for rev/cult rounds I don't see a problem.

Anyway we'll see what happens when pkp posts.

[Qbopper]

I'm not disagreeing with you, I think you're 100% right

where in the world is pkpenguin etc. etc.

[PKPenguin321]

Won't go in depth at the moment as I'm not at my computer at the moment, got two things to say right now though, the first being that there was a week secban along with the day serverban

Second thing: A while back when I was still a player there was a big shitshow about random searches which had become the sec meta, ruining rounds early with no cause. The code blue message about no random searches was iirc added over this specifically and is to be enforced heavily. Round type aside, I was ready to let Repukan walk free (I told him I would just be keeping an eye on him as nothing inherently screamed "BAN!"), three seconds after I told him I'd be keeping an eye he marched into sec and declared (verbally, so I have no doubt of his intent of this being random) a random search on a scientist and made it clear in an ahelp afterwords that he was well aware of code blue and didn't care. Not sure why he would do that especially with me JUST bwoinking him with a verbal warning about poor sec behavior. That's what tipped this ban off. I understand conversion modes requiring violent sec play, that's why I was ready to let him go at first. Extensive discussion of the policy of secs role in conversion modes in this thread is borderline irrelevant.

[onleavedontatme]

The blue alert thing isn't actually on our rules page so far as I can tell. Even if it's written that way, it seems very arbitrary and bureaucratic that a search would be rulebreaking and game ruining in a given situation but suddenly be okay if they'd swiped their ID on a wall console beforehand.

Like ausops said the actual level of crisis on station has always mattered more for admin decisions than what the alert level says. Security can't roundstart red alert to check for traitors at random, and I don't expect security to put away their guns or stop implanting people in rev because someone lowers the alert to green.

Also he may have told the scientist it was a random search, but he'd previously gotten at tip that science had built maxcaps, then discovered two were unaccounted for, and there was an active cult. It wasn't actually random at all.

[PKPenguin321]

Rules page has gotta be fixed up. Too many admin rulings go through without them making it on there, leads to shitty confusion like this.

Was not made aware of the motive. Would have been sweet of him to let me know in the ahelps instead of snarking about how he couldn't change the alert levels so they didn't apply to him.

[D&B]

Except that the checking on science thing came about as a result of a report of maxcaps being produced.

I brushed off your whole "bad sec behavior" thing because honestly I feel reacted appropriately to someone being shit for no reason. You opened up with "hey various people are saying you're being shit man you're on thin ice better watch yourself."

You later bwoinked me for searching the scientist but apparently during you banhunt you failed to notice

1) The maxcap sitting on the windoor
2) I was reporting to science to investigate WHY they were making maxcaps during a clock cult round
3) The search was not random, I was responding to a report made by another security officer
4) I asked the scientist for cooperation and had probable cause, and this is outlined here: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Standard_O ... _Procedure

If you want to say "oh yeah I threatened him to watch himself and he said he didn't care" it's because I'm well versed on what to do in each code and I was acting on information readily available to me. Feelings don't matter, information does, and I was following what was on the wiki regarding codes and searches. If you feel like citing some obscure thread on policy then by all means do and update the wiki while you are at it. But if you want to say I didn't take you seriously, it's not because I have disregard for your position or opinion. It's because this ban and your attitude as a whole in that moment felt more like that of a salty player than what an actual headmin would act.

But I'm curious now. You said I declared my intention to search a scientist. Mind posting where I said that?

[D&B]

If you want to talk about snark post the whole asay because I treated you with the same amount of seriousness you presented post Qbopper bwoink.

admin edit: deleted response to deleted post

[PKPenguin321]

1) The maxcap sitting on the windoor
2) I was reporting to science to investigate WHY they were making maxcaps during a clock cult round
3) The search was not random, I was responding to a report made by another security officer
4) I asked the scientist for cooperation and had probable cause, and this is outlined here: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Standard_O ... _Procedure

say these in the ahelps next time instead of

[02:59:31]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Repukan/(Donatello Versus)->PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan): oh I'm sorry I can't change danger levels on my own, I'll just let them blow me up, that better?

would have saved us a lot of trouble.
i'll go undo the ban, thanks for clearing this up.