[gouty] AVagrant - Miner and Beach Bum Bonanza

[AVagrant]

While I don't see a use in appealing a 2hr ban, gouty said they'd like to see this situation discussed.

Byond account and character name: AVagrant/Cyrus P. Doud
Banning admin:gouty
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server: Sybil/Bagil(?)
Ban reason and length: "Beach Bum isn't Crew. Is an Abomination" 2hrs
Time ban was placed (including time zone):Vaguely 3:30ish EST
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Sybil
Your side of the story: Killed a beach bum that had found his way onto the station through the mining shuttle as a miner. Couldn't understand a word they said as it was only gibberish surfer slang in a random order. gouty PM'd me about it being murder. Since they were non-crew from lavaland that didn't speak common, I didn't really see it that way.
Why you think you should be unbanned: It's a 2 hour ban, so it's not really worth the effort, but gouty said that they would like to see this thing discussed. A warning and maybe a clarification on where beach bums and other lavaland mobs fall on the murder scale would have sufficed, but a 2 hour ban is also way under the 24 hour ban for random murder. I guess I can't complain too much.

[feem]

In the past, ghost roles and admin-spawned/sentienced creatures were considered valid regardless of where they came from.

Recently there was a headmin ruling that admin-spawned roles such as Centcomm inspectors are NOT immediately valid.

While that ruling did not, when made, directly apply to ghost roles, ghost roles aren't typically allowed to go on murder sprees unless they're explicitly declared to be allowed to do so (for example, Ash Walkers are given instructions to defend their nest), and if you join as a ghost role and begin murderboning without cause (such as the above re: ash lizards, et al) then you're going to get bwoinked about it. I would imagine that the converse is generally true as well.

I don't understand why you would think it's okay to murder someone just because they were non crew and you didn't understand them, if they weren't being hostile or there wasn't a mitigating circumstance like nuclear operatives or some such similar.

Declaring "they are an abomination" doesn't make someone valid. I don't see why this would be any different for someone that came from lavaland.

[D&B]

Aren't all mobs from lavaland valid as fuck though?

The point of these roles is roleplaying and staying in lavaland, not making it onto station.

[D&B]

In the past, ghost roles and admin-spawned/sentienced creatures were considered valid regardless of where they came from.

Recently there was a headmin ruling that admin-spawned roles such as Centcomm inspectors are NOT immediately valid.

While that ruling did not, when made, directly apply to ghost roles, ghost roles aren't typically allowed to go on murder sprees unless they're explicitly declared to be allowed to do so (for example, Ash Walkers are given instructions to defend their nest), and if you join as a ghost role and begin murderboning without cause (such as the above re: ash lizards, et al) then you're going to get bwoinked about it. I would imagine that the converse is generally true as well.

I don't understand why you would think it's okay to murder someone just because they were non crew and you didn't understand them, if they weren't being hostile or there wasn't a mitigating circumstance like nuclear operatives or some such similar.

Declaring "they are an abomination" doesn't make someone valid. I don't see why this would be any different for someone that came from lavaland.

Ash walkers are literally the murderboning antag ghost roles though. That's why they're always valid, no excuses.
Same with the syndicate lavaland station, you're free to blow it up if you're from the station since it's a syndicate base.

Since when do ghost roles have protection? When, exactly, did we cross this line into being yogstation?

[feem]

If a beach bum is walking around the station and not talking, you literally have no way to determine that they're a beach bum and not just a regular tanned player wearing shorts. They aren't simple mobs, they're humans. If they start talking and you don't understand them, that doesn't preclude them from being a curator/librarian.

I don't understand why you'd think it's valid to kill a nonviolent non-simple mob.

[feem]

As I stated in my post, Ash Walkers are explicitly valid because they are given an explicit instruction to attack people.

[AVagrant]

And that's the whole question here. Lavaland mobs being valid. Had this been some role spawned by an admin or a ghost role that started on station I obviously wouldn't murder them, but lavaland being what it is changes the equation in my mind.

And that's the whole point here, I guess, discussion. A 2 hour ban is hella lenient for murder. I/gouty are more curious about if that should apply.

Also: "I would imagine that the converse is generally true as well."

Imagine being the qualifier here. It'd be nice to get some official fluff though.

[feem]

What methodology does a player use to determine whether someone has been spawned by an admin or not?

Why is it difficult to follow "don't randomly kill people who aren't shit if you're a non-antag"?

Are you that starved for murder?

[AVagrant]

Are you that starved for murder?

I play shaft miner, so...

[feem]

I'm not responding to you with that comment, really, AVagrant, you're being really reasonable.

[AVagrant]

I'm not responding to you with that comment, really, AVagrant, you're being really reasonable.

I was trying to be comedic, sorry.

[D&B]

If a beach bum is walking around the station and not talking, you literally have no way to determine that they're a beach bum and not just a regular tanned player wearing shorts. They aren't simple mobs, they're humans. If they start talking and you don't understand them, that doesn't preclude them from being a curator/librarian.

I don't understand why you'd think it's valid to kill a nonviolent non-simple mob.

Because it's been that way since forever now?

I don't understand why now we have to accommodate people abusing roles meant to roleplay and using them as second lives trying to get on station.

[feem]

I think it's shit for them to be on station but I also think it's shit for someone to murder a dude because they don't speak your language.

Under the new ruling, I am sure as hell going to give you a ban if I spawn an inspector and you murder them outright because they're an inspector and don't have an IC path of escalation for it (i.e. it's part of an ongoing centcomm vs. captain spat, or something).

While that doesn't apply to ghost roles, there are a couple ghost roles where it's difficult to tell whether or not that's in fact what they are and while that wasn't the case in this instance, I really want to know how you expect to be able to definitively prove that someone's a beach bum if you didn't see them come in from lavaland. If you're obsessively checking to see if everyone you see is on the manifest or not, that's meta as fuck if there's not already a demonstrated reason to be doing so.

A hard and fast "Everything from lavaland is always valid" is no longer appropriate because we now have ghost roles which cannot always be ICly and qualitatively distinguished from non-antag, non-harmful regular players, and we also now have precedent for disallowing random murder of admin-spawned roles, which further narrows the criteria you can use to determine whether or not someone's valid.

If you don't have a reason to kill them and there's a player playing them and you're not an antag, why are you killing them?

[AVagrant]

So yeah, this Beach Bum did beeline down from the beach dome to the mining station, then into a shuttle. I asked him a few times who he was on the shuttle, only to get beach bum gibberish as a reply. I declared him an abomination once we got to cargo. Was it rude to murder him? Probably. Should we look into whether or not that should be valid, yeah. Using a ghost lavaland role as a second life on the station is kind of shitty. He didn't even roleplay or really interact with any of the miners, just booked it to the shuttle.

[feem]

And I agree that in this circumstance it was way less actionable, way more justified, than the other scenarios I'm laying out.

I'm just saying that it's otherwise improbable that you can determine that a beach bum is murderable, and if you're going to the extent of intentionally looking for reasons to murder everyone you see, I'm really confused as to why you're upset that a roleplaying role wasn't used for roleplaying because you sure as hell aren't roleplaying (again this is mostly directed to repukan's statements).

[Lazengann]

I'm just here to call D&B a big whiner because the guy who added Beach Bums said they're supposed to just meta their way to the station

[Cobby]

If a beach bum is walking around the station and not talking, you literally have no way to determine that they're a beach bum and not just a regular tanned player wearing shorts. They aren't simple mobs, they're humans. If they start talking and you don't understand them, that doesn't preclude them from being a curator/librarian.

I don't understand why you'd think it's valid to kill a nonviolent non-simple mob.

Because it's been that way since forever now?

I don't understand why now we have to accommodate people abusing roles meant to roleplay and using them as second lives trying to get on station.

If that is a problem, I don't see how someone treating a ghost role as second life has any realms in IC. It is purely an OOC issue imo.

"It's been that way" isn't really a justification either. if you are implying it was once a conscience decision made by someone previously, then you should make the same point they're making and see if it still applies.

[D&B]

I think it's shit for them to be on station but I also think it's shit for someone to murder a dude because they don't speak your language.

Under the new ruling, I am sure as hell going to give you a ban if I spawn an inspector and you murder them outright because they're an inspector and don't have an IC path of escalation for it (i.e. it's part of an ongoing centcomm vs. captain spat, or something).

Nobody is arguing against this, this is about lavaland ghost roles

While that doesn't apply to ghost roles, there are a couple ghost roles where it's difficult to tell whether or not that's in fact what they are and while that wasn't the case in this instance, I really want to know how you expect to be able to definitively prove that someone's a beach bum if you didn't see them come in from lavaland. If you're obsessively checking to see if everyone you see is on the manifest or not, that's meta as fuck if there's not already a demonstrated reason to be doing so.

Who gives a shit? Meta-knowledge is explicitly allowed by the rules, and checking the manifest is a good way of checking out infiltrating ash walkers and syndicate members. If you have someone beeline for your mining station, and trying to get into the shuttle that leads on station, without identifying themselves, why would you NOT check the manifest to see if they're clear?

A hard and fast "Everything from lavaland is always valid" is no longer appropriate because we now have ghost roles which cannot always be ICly and qualitatively distinguished from non-antag, non-harmful regular players, and we also now have precedent for disallowing random murder of admin-spawned roles, which further narrows the criteria you can use to determine whether or not someone's valid.

If you don't have a reason to kill them and there's a player playing them and you're not an antag, why are you killing them?

Except we do have ways of distinguishing them. They won't be in the manifest, they will often have different language settings, and their equipment itself will show you what kind of person you're dealing with. The precedent clearly states centcomm inspectors spawned by admins, and those are in now way equal to randomly generated ghost roles.

If you don't want to play the role, don't abuse it as a second life. That won't get you killed, and if you are, ahelp it, because then it's grief. But abusing ghost roles that someone else might want to play just to get a second life is under no circumstances protected by the rules, nor should it be.

[AVagrant]

In reply to Feem's last post because I'm slow and bad at forums:

Because the shaft miner's job is mining, and to stay in lavaland mining. It by nature is a much more game mechanics oriented role than an RP oriented role.

Meanwhile beach bum being a role designed for lavaland and the beach dome, who's then on the station. The whole thing is sticking with the role you've chosen. The same sort of thing you see when people want to play HoPcurity. It's not sticking to your role.

But in the end, that's kind of only tangentially related, as this is more about should the beach bum be a valid kill in a situation like this, and maybe having this discussion expand to ghost roles at large. Since there's been a ruling on admin roles, I think a clarification on ghost roles would be helpful.

[D&B]

And I agree that in this circumstance it was way less actionable, way more justified, than the other scenarios I'm laying out.

I'm just saying that it's otherwise improbable that you can determine that a beach bum is murderable, and if you're going to the extent of intentionally looking for reasons to murder everyone you see, I'm really confused as to why you're upset that a roleplaying role wasn't used for roleplaying because you sure as hell aren't roleplaying (again this is mostly directed to repukan's statements).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

[feem]

"I'M ROLEPLAYING A LIBERTARIAN SO I CAN KILL ANYONE I WANT" yeah ok

[AVagrant]

And I agree that in this circumstance it was way less actionable, way more justified, than the other scenarios I'm laying out.

I'm just saying that it's otherwise improbable that you can determine that a beach bum is murderable, and if you're going to the extent of intentionally looking for reasons to murder everyone you see, I'm really confused as to why you're upset that a roleplaying role wasn't used for roleplaying because you sure as hell aren't roleplaying (again this is mostly directed to repukan's statements).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

Yeah, I don't see where Castle Doctrine really applies. SS13 is kind of different with admin rules and such.

[D&B]

Don't thread on me

[Gouty]

The ban was placed after some consideration. Others thought it worthy of a standard murder ban (1 day) I thought it was probably worth less that that due to the ambiguous nature of it, so I settled on a short break of 2 hours.

Killing a sentient, non-hostile, non-simple mob because you think you can get away with it is a dick move no matter how you look at it.

[AVagrant]

The ban was placed after some consideration. Others thought it worthy of a standard murder ban (1 day) I thought it was probably worth less that that due to the ambiguous nature of it, so I settled on a short break of 2 hours.

Killing a sentient, non-hostile, non-simple mob because you think you can get away with it is a dick move no matter how you look at it.

True, and I realize I'm in the wrong there. Was very much a dick move. Kind of just curious about Lavaland and it's impact on muh valids.

[feem]

I do think we need a headmin clarification on this. AVagrant, you've been extremely reasonable, thank you.

[Nilons]

Killing things because they can't fight back is probably a violation of rule 1

[PKPenguin321]

The policy in question:

We're enacting a new policy that randomly killing admin event things for literally no reason is grounds for a note/tempban/permaban (depending on past behavior) for random murder. In the past, this has been let off as ghost roles are often valid, but that's no longer going to be the case. Unless the ghost role is something small and intended to be valid like a sentient cockroach or frog, the ghost role is inherently evil or antagonistic, or the person playing the ghost role does IC escalation to build up to murder, then admin event roles can be treated as any other default roles.

For example: Bumrushing and killing the centcomm inspector at arrivals docks for no reason as a non antagonist would be a note/tempban/permaban for random murder.

When I wrote this it was directed towards admin event ghost roles, as in roles given to ghosts by admins, rather than ones that spawned on the map. I for some reason failed to take actual map-spawned ghost roles into consideration when I came up with the wording for this ruling, which has now led to confusion. Stupid mistake, I know.

The validity of map-spawned ghost roles is a separate issue that I suppose could be debatable. Technically there isn't official policy, but I think the policy I quoted just a second ago could easily be applied to map-spawned ghost roles (especially considering the wording already unintentionally implies as much). I'll have to talk to another headmin about it.

In the meantime, I think lifting this ban due to confusion about the actual policy behind it is fine.

[onleavedontatme]

The official policy of ghost roles has been massively relaxed escalation and basically following the roleplay guidelines of their flavour text.

Relaxed escalation/motivation can include things like "I want to kill the free golems for their minerals" or "that drone just stole my hat." It doesn't mean completely at random though.

[Shadowlight213]

Wouldn't that not be at random though? A non crewmember who is speaking gibberish is trespassing on the station. I think it would be perfectly reasonable for the miner to defend the station and kill them.
For something like free golems, they should establish communications with the miners and get an ok to be on station.
If they just arrive on station unannounced, they should be treated as invaders.

[Gouty]

If they just arrive on station unannounced, they should be treated as invaders.

In board shorts and Hawaiian shirts?

[feem]

I don't think you understand how important it is to murder literally everyone you possibly can without getting in trouble, Gouty.

[Gouty]

That's how you win right?

[OhChildflayer]

In response to the whole issue with not speaking common: use emotes.

[AlekseiMt]

My brother and i genuinely don't know why you banned us, could you at least tell us why we were banned and we can discuss future behavior after that?

[Gouty]

My brother and i genuinely don't know why you banned us, could you at least tell us why we were banned and we can discuss future behavior after that?

I do not know who you or your brother are as you do not have a ckey associated with your account, also please create a new ban appeal, don't hijack this one.

[Cobby]

The ban has expired and there's a policy discussion for this so I don't see the reason to keep this up.