[PKPenguin321] Note Appeal

[BeeSting12]

Byond account and character name: BeeSting12, Edward Sloan
Banning admin: PKPenguin321
Ban type (What are you banned from?): None, note.
Ban reason and length:
2017-08-24 02:47:40 | Bagil | pkpenguin321
When a borg was releasing a prisoner on orders, he (as a security officer) immeidately killed them without even trying to use law two to override the release order. Says this is a common thing. Was talked to and would have been let off with a warning, but was very dismissive and made it clear he wouldn't actually listen to the advice given. Ban next time.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): see note
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): bagil
Your side of the story: I arrested a prisoner for stealing an officer's taser and various other gear. Once contraband was taken, I put her in a cell for a few minutes. I forget if I left the brig or not, I believe I did leave the room, but I come back and find a borg to be letting the prisoner out. Silicons had been acting weirdly during the shift- Several refused or ignored law two orders. I later on found out the AI was even purged. Anyways, I kill the borg before it can open any doors to fully release the prisoner. Anyone who has dealt with silicons know there's no time to type out law two stop in the time it takes for a borg to zip away, prisoner being dragged. I tase and cuff the prisoner and put her back in the cell this time for ten for asking to be let out. I was about to recharge and get the borg revived, would've taken under two minutes, when another officer did so for me. Total time the cyborg spent out of the round was under five minutes.
Why you think you should be unbanned: Killing a cyborg that is releasing a dangerous prisoner is perfectly valid especially in hindsight when I realized it was purged. Cyborgs releasing prisoners should expect to get hit. I intended on reviving it and it did get revived, just consider it the equivalent of getting brigged. This is a ridiculous policy, to expect security to just let borgs run off with prisoners while shouting hey stop please. No, that's dumb and doesn't work.

[Cobby]

Killing a borg for following their laws (you did not know they were purged if Im reading the above post correctly) is explicitly against the rules in silly policy . I personally am relaxed on this issue if they are a dire threat like say a cultist, but that certainly doesn't apply here since they just stole some items.

Since it was a note based on what you thought was acceptable behavior, I don't see the issue. Hindsight them being purged means nothing unless you knew they were purged prior to killing them.

I'm not sure how you killed them but if it was by ion you could have stunned then claim they were harmful or whatever. And no, killing a borg then sending them to robotics != brigging, just like killing someone then taking them to cloning != brigging

In short, your best bet is to explain if you knew they were for sure not Asimov PRIOR to killing imo or otherwise there's not much to do on this appeal

[BeeSting12]

1) I figured they weren't Asimov when I ordered a cyborg to take down girders he was placing through the halls and he refused. This happened twice with seperate cyborgs.
2) What else am I supposed to do? I cannot reliably stun and restrain a borg, just chainstun which means I can't talk to them.

[Nilons]

He said in the initial post, the borgs were being uppity and not listening. Why is it on him that borgs are actively ignoring orders and he doesn't want to try for the third or fourth time to type out "hey you better stop letting out prisoners borg you only have 6 more warnings before I start to consider lethal action". Also I thought it was covered under silicon policy that law 2 orders to release you from the brig, or into the armoury, or into the captains office for no good reason were not okay/could be ignored.

"Dangerous" areas as the Armory, the Atmospherics division, and the Toxins lab can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.

While it doesn't specify the brig as an example, wouldn't it be potentially harmful to let a criminal who stole weapons with which I'm sure they were planning on harming people with out of the brig?

[Cobby]

1) I figured they weren't Asimov when I ordered a cyborg to take down girders he was placing through the halls and he refused. This happened twice with seperate cyborgs.
2) What else am I supposed to do? I cannot reliably stun and restrain a borg, just chainstun which means I can't talk to them.

That's fair then, although you could have just pulled them away and buckled them to a chair.

He said in the initial post, the borgs were being uppity and not listening. Why is it on him that borgs are actively ignoring orders and he doesn't want to try for the third or fourth time to type out "hey you better stop letting out prisoners borg you only have 6 more warnings before I start to consider lethal action". Also I thought it was covered under silicon policy that law 2 orders to release you from the brig, or into the armoury, or into the captains office for no good reason were not okay/could be ignored.

"Dangerous" areas as the Armory, the Atmospherics division, and the Toxins lab can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.

While it doesn't specify the brig as an example, wouldn't it be potentially harmful to let a criminal who stole weapons with which I'm sure they were planning on harming people with out of the brig?

Yes and No. No because if an area is a danger to the user you'd let them out of the area, and the brig is not on par with highly dangerous areas. Yes however because silicon policy also mentions being lame to security (including releasing prisoners) without a good reason (which the borg may/ may not have, dunno wasn't there) is a rule 1 violation.

[Lazengann]

Please don't forget the classic "Sorry I didn't notice" defense borgs give when they don't want to follow a stop order.

[Cobby]

People who say they don't read chat in a game where you literally have to read chat to get information since not everything has an animation is really silly

[BeeSting12]

1) I figured they weren't Asimov when I ordered a cyborg to take down girders he was placing through the halls and he refused. This happened twice with seperate cyborgs.
2) What else am I supposed to do? I cannot reliably stun and restrain a borg, just chainstun which means I can't talk to them.

That's fair then, although you could have just pulled them away and buckled them to a chair.

He said in the initial post, the borgs were being uppity and not listening. Why is it on him that borgs are actively ignoring orders and he doesn't want to try for the third or fourth time to type out "hey you better stop letting out prisoners borg you only have 6 more warnings before I start to consider lethal action". Also I thought it was covered under silicon policy that law 2 orders to release you from the brig, or into the armoury, or into the captains office for no good reason were not okay/could be ignored.

"Dangerous" areas as the Armory, the Atmospherics division, and the Toxins lab can be assumed to be a Law 1 threat to any illegitimate users as well as the station as a whole if accessed by someone not qualified in their use.

While it doesn't specify the brig as an example, wouldn't it be potentially harmful to let a criminal who stole weapons with which I'm sure they were planning on harming people with out of the brig?

Yes and No. No because if an area is a danger to the user you'd let them out of the area, and the brig is not on par with highly dangerous areas. Yes however because silicon policy also mentions being lame to security (including releasing prisoners) without a good reason (which the borg may/ may not have, dunno wasn't there) is a rule 1 violation.

Pulling away and buckling in a chair is not an effective way to keep a cyborg still. Not only that, but this was box's brig, I'd have to leave the prisoner on the ground tased to get a chair allowing the prisoner time to get out somehow.

If purged AIs have to follow rule one then I guess the borg was breaking rules if releasing the prisoner FNR is against rule one. If you ask me, this is about as IC issue as it gets. Everyone got out of the situation scot free in about five minutes, except the prisoner whose timer I bumped up to ten for attempting escape. If I had a reliable way to keep a cyborg restrained so I could talk to him, believe me, I would use it, but I don't so killing it and rebooting it is the best option.

[PKPenguin321]

He said in the initial post, the borgs were being uppity and not listening. Why is it on him that borgs are actively ignoring orders and he doesn't want to try for the third or fourth time to type out "hey you better stop letting out prisoners borg you only have 6 more warnings before I start to consider lethal action".

Because in this instance it would be appropriate to adminhelp the borg instead of killing them. This particular instance wasn't all bad as the borg did end up being purged, but through ahelps it turned out that the OP claims to do this often with Asimov borgs as well, and killing a borg for following their laws has always been bannable. If a borg ignores their laws (specifically law two orders in this circumstance), on the other hand, then the borg should be banned.

Ahelp logs (Round ID: #75139):

Code: Select all

[02:25:54]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan)->BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan): Ez-27 is asking why you killed him, could you tell me?
[02:26:43]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan)->PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan): Walked into a cell releasing a prisoner that stole an officer's taser/headset. I was going to take him to robotics to get fixed but another officer did. When a cyborg released prisoners, I just kill it and revive it later if the prisoner wasn't dangerous.
[02:27:11]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan)->BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan): Alright. Maybe try law two overriding next time.
[02:27:23]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan)->PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan): Borgs have already been ignoring law two lately
[02:27:34]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan)->BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan): Did you try it and he ignored it in this specific case?
[02:27:48]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan)->PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan): No. Just this round, they've been doing that
[02:28:12]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan)->BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan): If you didn't even try it in this case, don't say it wouldn't have worked. If they ignore it in the future, then ahelp them ignoring law two.
[02:30:54]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan)->PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan): It's difficult to say not to take prisoners when they can get 5 screens away while I type it. It's easier to flash and smash and reboot it later. It's not very hard to reboot, consider it the equivalent of a brigging
[02:31:31]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan)->BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan): Still, it's very shitty behavior to kill them for following their laws. Maybe flash, drag away, then law two. Just don't jump right to killing. I know it's tough because borgs are stupid, but that's how it is.
[02:33:10]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan)->PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan): There are very few cases when that works and you know it's not practical
[02:43:00]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan)->BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan): Sure, but you're still killing a borg for following its laws. At least try in the future.
[02:43:51]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: BeeSting12/(Edward Sloan)->PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan): sure whatever
[02:47:42]ADMINPRIVATE: PKPenguin321/(Lauser McMauligan) has created a note for beesting12: When a borg was releasing a prisoner on orders, he (as a security officer) immeidately killed them without even trying to use law two to override the release order. Says this is a common thing. Was talked to and would have been let off with a warning, but was very dismissive and made it clear he wouldn\'t actually listen to the advice given. Ban next time.

At multiple points I was willing to let him off with a warning and consider it resolved, but he would respond again insisting that he was not only in the right in this case, but in all cases, saying "There are very few cases when that works and you know it's not practical." The final "sure whatever" was enough for me to believe he would not listen to a warning in the first place and a note was necessary.

Feel free to respond if you think any of this is wrong, but right now I'm looking at rejecting this appeal.

[BeeSting12]

Why should I have to ahelp every situation that seems remotely iffy? That seems like a shitty mindset to have and frankly I don't want to be the sort of player that adminhelps every time something seems off to check it for validity. I noticed the borgs were acting odd that round- ignoring orders and doing weird things such as building walls through the halls. At this point I assumed that there was something off about them and to treat them as such. When a cyborg released the prisoner, I treated it under the assumption it was rogue. I had the borg rebooted anyway.

Additionally, no, telling a cyborg to stop stealing prisoners as they're running away is definitely not practical. Flashing it and dragging it off is definitely not practical, it'll just run back meanwhile the prisoner is running out. At the point I said sure whatever, I was just about ready to be done with the conversation so I could continue with my round. I usually only kill Asimov borgs when they're removing harmful prisoners from the brig- traitors revs cultists changelings etc. Sorry if I mislead you there.

[PKPenguin321]

If a silicon appears to be breaking its laws, just shoot a simple "This borg isn't following law 2" or something. No need for a long winded ahelp with paragraphs of what they did wrong. This lets us weed out shitty silicon players too, so it's nice for the server as a whole, not just you.

Your second paragraph is what I wanted to hear. As long as you only do it in cases like what you described where the borg is in clear violation of law 1 without realizing it and there's no other option, you should be fine (in other words, be really really sure you're in the right before killing a borg who believes they are following their laws). Thanks for clarifying what you meant with the whole "I do this all the time" bit. I'll lift the note.