[Okand37] Francinum - Shooting a borg

[francinum]

Byond account and character name: Francinum/Francis Gallyus

Banning admin: Okand37

Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server

Ban reason and length: As a nonantagonist security officer, killed a cyborg with an esword who was attempting to arrest the HoS because the HoS had previously stated on public communication they were going to arrest a human individual. When questioned, they responded with: "It was arresting the HoS, yes, it was in accordance to it's laws, if that's a problem, note me. "
1440 Minutes - 24 Hours

Time ban was placed (including time zone): RID: 78720, Server time: [04:49:19]

Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil

Your side of the story:
IRC Logs between me and Okand: https://file.house/qf6u.log
Cleaned up logs: https://pastebin.com/fVCKnW4H

Entering sec after a wizard-mulligan-traitor round, I see the HoS stunned next to a security cyborg, with the HoS calling it rogue, being a nonhuman security officer unsure of the laws the borg was operating under, I flashed and beat it to death, leaving the HoS with the dead shell for them to handle.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

I don't believe there was an issue with how I handled the situation, My biggest mistake appears to be not dragging the borg to robotics myself, or explicitly telling someone to handle it, and instead allowing it to sit in security.

[Nilons]

With silicon policy saying you cannot destroy a Borg for obeying it's laws wouldn't it be the HoS not the officer who was at fault here? If the HoS was actually calling it rogue doesn't previous appeals precedent say that it's the HoS' fault in the end because he was indirectly asking for it to be destroyed for following it's laws

[Cobby]

Calling a borg rogue is on that person, not the actual guy who killed them (also in silly policy iirc)

[Armhulen]

If there was no harm here the borg is at fault. This lawset was Asimov, right?

[Pascal125]

Merely stating intent to harm is dumb, but in most cases not justifiable ground to restrain and pacify the Human and refuse to unrestrain them under law two as they have not commited harm. yet.
If the Borg was Law Two'd (Which i assume it must've been) to release him and refused, is it not breaking its laws? The borg could've easily just kept a close eye on him and his "target".

As for a non-human officer canning the borg. That's not unusual. Borg players can be awfully shit and attack/make your life hell for hindering them via flash. Secborgs are intimidating, and often the way a rogue Borg gets you is through your unwillingness to act through the confusion. Which can cause people to jump to attacking the borg very swiftly.

Another point of view is that they were, directly or indirectly. (Assuming the HoS told them to do something) Ordered to handle the borg by a direct superior. In which failure to do so would be insubordination, which. While not often acted upon; is an excuse to demote/punish someone. Much like a Silicon to it's AI/Laws.

If the Borg was following it's laws properly, was never ordered to stop, and was accused and lynched for it. Then i'd imagine in most instances the punishment shouldn't fall on the one who was deceived, but the deceiver for making people act on it.

[BeeSting12]

There's no way to nonlethally take care of a cyborg besides a lockdown, which is time consuming to get. The only option for a nonhuman is to kill the cyborg, especially if the HoS is calling him rogue, that's the assumption you have to make as a new arrival and treat it as such

[Armhulen]

Remove the note I say but let's hear from okand first on this

[Okand37]

If you'll refer to the updated ban reason that was stated and corrected yesterday on the IRC as you brought it to my attention that I slightly misstated it:

As a nonantagonist security officer, killed a cyborg with an esword who was attempting to arrest the HoS because the HoS had previously stated on public communication they were going to execute a human individual. When questioned, they responded with: \"It was arresting the HoS, yes, it was in accordance to it\'s laws, if that\'s a problem, note me. \"\n\nPlease don\'t break the server rules, especially when you\'re well aware that you\'re breaking them. When a borg\'s orders are conflicting with your goals or attempts as a nonantagonist, especially as security, you should try to non-harmfully disable or dissuade them first.

The Head of Security decided to state publicly (or at least in a place the A.I. could hear) that it was going to execute a human. A perfect reason for the borg to come and arrest it or at least detain it. The statement may have gone unnoticed because it was either flooded by the chat or in command, but moving on.

Generally speaking, when a borg is following its laws you are supposed to try to find a nonlethal solution to the situation before resorting to or escalating to lethals. In this scenario, you could have flashed the borg and either asked the A.I. why it was sending the borg, asked another individual in security to ask them using law 2, and so forth. Regardless, since you were a non-human, this solution might seem "inconvenient" so you decided to kill it.

As you're a non-human, the situation may become difficult since you aren't protected by default asimov (although you have both the tools to stun it yourself and you had fellow human security officers in abundance.) After you killed the borg, you left it in security with no attempt at communication or effort to be responsible for it. You did not inform anyone that it should be repaired, you did not attempt to do anything with it yourself, you simply left it there on the basis that-as mentioned in the IRC-you believed the HoS would be "competent" enough to figure out they should deal with the dead borg themselves.

You could have had the borg repaired in robotics, you could have had it dissembled to talk to the MMI after breaking it, you could have even taken the MMI and forced it into a new genetics human so it couldn't have come back at you with asimov versus a non-human; but you didn't attempt to do any of these actions. You went straight to killing then discarding it.

Admin PM logs plucked from the game log:

[04:45:51]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Francinum/(Francis Gallyus): Hello there, do you have a moment to elaborate on what led up to you killing Cyborg Unit 231?
[04:46:18]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Francinum/(Francis Gallyus)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): It was arresting the HoS, yes, it was in accordance to it's laws, if that's a problem, note me.
[04:46:37]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Okand37/(Verena Knox)->Francinum/(Francis Gallyus): So you understand what you did wrong?
[04:46:41]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Francinum/(Francis Gallyus)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): Yes

The main issue isn't simply because you went straight to killing it, or simply because you left it there, but that you did a mix of both without any form of attempted communication whatsoever. I can see where you're coming from when you went straight to killing it, though I'd disagree with the handling, but you also decided to just leave it in the brig without informing anyone or saying any attempt at communication for anyone to handle it.

EDIT: I would like to additionally acknowledge that you stated that it was, infact, following in accordance to its laws according to your message response. Even if you did find this out at a later date, you didn't in any way shape or form try to communicate or be responsible for what you did before or after that point.

[Okand37]

As according to the IRC conversation being a round-about and us reaching no agreement or conclusion, unless a head administrator would disagree and overturns this ban I will be denying your appeal.

[Cobby]

Calling a borg rogue is on that person, not the actual guy who killed them (also in silly policy iirc)

[Okand37]

Calling a borg rogue is on that person, not the actual guy who killed them (also in silly policy iirc)

Restating your argument without shaping it to fit new circumstance or argument is laziness. Please try again.

[Cobby]

Perhaps the question is did he just arrive at sec and not know what was going on, or did he know what was actually going on?

The whole "just arrived" bit implies ignorance, but the adminhelps say the opposite.

If it's the latter, then it's on him. If it's the former, idk why you'd tell an admin otherwise so that's also on him because if he was being honest it would have been on the hos.

[Okand37]

Perhaps the question is did he just arrive at sec and not know what was going on, or did he know what was actually going on?

The whole "just arrived" bit implies ignorance, but the adminhelps say the opposite.

If it's the latter, then it's on him. If it's the former, idk why you'd tell an admin otherwise so that's also on him because if he was being honest it would have been on the hos.

If you'll refer to my post and the admin logs, he stated he knew it was following its orders and knew that it was wrong and asked me to "note him" if it was an issue. I double checked and asked him if he understood what he did wrong, and he confirmed yes.

If I am unmistaken, his central point of argument for how the A.I. could have been a traitor is by acknowledging the mulligan system made new traitors, which can tend to border on the aspect of metagaming-but that's another story. If you'll read the argument that I made, it isn't simply because they killed it, it is that they did not in any way shape or form attempt to communicate to find out why it was doing what it was doing or even after the fact have the borg shell dealt with in any way shape or form as they didn't have any actual confirmation that it was infact rogue.

[Cobby]

I see, my apologies.

I am a bit concerned how one can say

[04:46:18]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Francinum/(Francis Gallyus)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): It was arresting the HoS, yes, it was in accordance to it's laws, if that's a problem, note me.

While also saying that they were"unsure of the laws the borg was operating under".

[Okand37]

I see, my apologies.

I am a bit concerned how one can say

[04:46:18]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Francinum/(Francis Gallyus)->Okand37/(Verena Knox): It was arresting the HoS, yes, it was in accordance to it's laws, if that's a problem, note me.

While also saying that they were"unsure of the laws the borg was operating under".

No worries at all, as the original author's post is missing a lot of the context and vital portions of the situation, it makes it appear much more bare-bone than it is.

I am uncertain of why they would counter-state their own acknowledgement myself, and would ask the appealing party to explain it when they have the chance!

[francinum]

I learned that it was just following it's laws after the fact, as stated in the IRC log.

[Okand37]

I learned that it was just following it's laws after the fact, as stated in the IRC log.

While you did state this, you made no allusion that you did not know this at the time and openly acknowledged that it was operating under its laws. If you'll refer to the earlier argument, you made no attempts to actually communicate before or even after you had learned this fact.

[francinum]

Your main argument, besides my acknowledgement, appears to be that I left the shell and failed to communicate. I accept that that was a mistake, in addition the station at the time was in rather poor shape, so I had another thing to attend to at the time, causing me to ignore the shell of the borg until I later learned that the AI was in fact asimov, and yes at that point I should have once again had the borg shell taken care of.

[Okand37]

Your main argument, besides my acknowledgement, appears to be that I left the shell and failed to communicate. I accept that that was a mistake, in addition the station at the time was in rather poor shape, so I had another thing to attend to at the time, causing me to ignore the shell of the borg until I later learned that the AI was in fact asimov, and yes at that point I should have once again had the borg shell taken care of.

The main issue isn't simply because you went straight to killing it, or simply because you left it there, but that you did a mix of both without any form of attempted communication whatsoever. I can see where you're coming from when you went straight to killing it, though I'd disagree with the handling, but you also decided to just leave it in the brig without informing anyone or saying any attempt at communication for anyone to handle it.

EDIT: I would like to additionally acknowledge that you stated that it was, infact, following in accordance to its laws according to your message response. Even if you did find this out at a later date, you didn't in any way shape or form try to communicate or be responsible for what you did before or after that point.

If you'll refer to what I've said previously, it isn't simply because you left the shell and failed to communicate that it should be dealt with, but rather a culmination that you went straight to killing it mixed with leaving the shell with no words spoken regarding it. Additionally, you said when questioned that you did infact know it was operating under its lawset at the time.

You are close to acknowledging it in full and seeing the issue with what you did, yes. With that said, you've been playing on the server for quite some time and should know the consequences to breaking the rules; you aren't exactly a new player.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

If you'll read the argument that I made, it isn't simply because they killed it, it is that they did not in any way shape or form attempt to communicate to find out why it was doing what it was doing or even after the fact have the borg shell dealt with in any way shape or form as they didn't have any actual confirmation that it was infact rogue.

If a player has serious reason as sec to think a borg is rogue (IE attacking/detaining the HOS and you didnt see the reason), it is entirely unreasonable to expect the player to stand there and ask the possibly rogue borg what its reasoning is when if the borg is rogue it will be almost guaranteed to kill you. If being flashed as a borg didnt blind/deaf/mute you (and I think it shouldnt and that the person who added that was a pikey), you could flash borgs and ask them their major malfunction, but as it is the only way is to kill, blow/disassemble, and ask the brain.

This thread hasnt made clear whether the HOS called the borgs rogue though. If he did, banning a sec officer for killing the borg is farcial.

[Uncle Bourbon]

From what I can tell, Francis heard the hos calling for help, saw the borg arresting the hos, hos calling it rouge. They wouldn't have time to wait that long (and burn like 5 flashes) to nonlethally detain a "rogue" borg. If the borg was rogue it could've ran off with the hos before you can type out "lock down that borg!!" and then you got a loose borg and a dead hos, borgs can't be detained easily, at least by sec officers, and nonhuman ones at that. If I was in their shoes I would have done the same thing, I'll trust my boss who can't be an antag and is also mindshielded, over a robot that can get flashed and emagged in like 4 seconds. 100% that hos's fault for either lying or being arrogant and not saving the borg, especially since he is the one with access to all departments, but it also depends on the state of the station too i guess. I wouldnt expect someone to walk in breached areas just to wait in front of a near destroyed robotics to get a bot fixed when there's desword traitors and what not.

[francinum]

Code: Select all

[04:40:54]	[200, 130, 2]	ATTACK	Cyborg Unit 231(williambear) stunned Chewy Duwang(scoopscoopscoo) with  (NEWHP: 88)
[04:40:57]	[201, 130, 2]	ATTACK	Francis Gallyus(francinum) flashed Cyborg Unit 231(williambear) with The flash (NEWHP: 100)
[04:40:58]	[200, 130, 2]	SAY	Chewy Duwang/Scoopscoopscoo : KILL THE BORG
[04:41:00]	[201, 130, 2]	ATTACK	Francis Gallyus(francinum) attacked Cyborg Unit 231(williambear) with energy sword(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 70)
[04:41:00]	[200, 130, 2]	SAY	Chewy Duwang/Scoopscoopscoo : ITS ROGUE
-cut more eswording-
[04:41:07]	[201, 130, 2]	ATTACK	Francis Gallyus(francinum) attacked Cyborg Unit 231(williambear) with energy sword(INTENT: HELP) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -100)
[04:41:07]	[201, 130, 2]	EMOTE	Williambear/(Cyborg Unit 231) : Cyborg Unit 231 shudders violently for a moment before falling still, its eyes slowly darkening.
[04:41:07]	ACCESS	Mob Login: Williambear/(Cyborg Unit 231) was assigned to a /mob/dead/observer
[04:41:12]	[200, 130, 2]	SAY	Chewy Duwang/Scoopscoopscoo : thank you

[Okand37]

If a player has serious reason as sec to think a borg is rogue (IE attacking/detaining the HOS and you didnt see the reason), it is entirely unreasonable to expect the player to stand there and ask the possibly rogue borg what its reasoning is when if the borg is rogue it will be almost guaranteed to kill you. If being flashed as a borg didnt blind/deaf/mute you (and I think it shouldnt and that the person who added that was a pikey), you could flash borgs and ask them their major malfunction, but as it is the only way is to kill, blow/disassemble, and ask the brain.

This thread hasnt made clear whether the HOS called the borgs rogue though. If he did, banning a sec officer for killing the borg is farcial.

I didn't ask them to sit there and ask the rogue borg nor burn through their flash while attempting to ask someone else, hence why they aren't being punished for that alone. They're being punished because they went straight to killing it then just left its shell in the brig with no communication whatsoever to actually attempt to fix or resolve the issue. If you'll note in IRC logs and in my post, I made it evident that I suggested as an alternative they could've killed it then disassembled it and asked the brain or shoved it into a monkey-human so it couldn't come back at them (as they weren't human under the borg's asimov lawset.) Additionally, after confirming that it wasn't rogue, they still proceeded to not do anything and informed me-once questioned-that it was following its lawset when arresting the HoS at the time when they killed it.

To sate any curiosities, this is what the HoS said that denoted the "execution" of the human.

[04:35:52]SAY: Chewy Duwang/Scoopscoopscoo : anyone wanna watch the execution of robert greene (218,162,2)

Later which, they called the borg rogue when it tried to apprehend them. If you'll note in my reasonings, I'm not faulting the player simply for killing them when they were claimed they were rogue (despite the HoS clearly stating they were going to execute a human being)

From what I can tell, Francis heard the hos calling for help, saw the borg arresting the hos, hos calling it rouge. They wouldn't have time to wait that long (and burn like 5 flashes) to nonlethally detain a "rogue" borg. If the borg was rogue it could've ran off with the hos before you can type out "lock down that borg!!" and then you got a loose borg and a dead hos, borgs can't be detained easily, at least by sec officers, and nonhuman ones at that. If I was in their shoes I would have done the same thing, I'll trust my boss who can't be an antag and is also mindshielded, over a robot that can get flashed and emagged in like 4 seconds. 100% that hos's fault for either lying or being arrogant and not saving the borg, especially since he is the one with access to all departments, but it also depends on the state of the station too i guess. I wouldnt expect someone to walk in breached areas just to wait in front of a near destroyed robotics to get a bot fixed when there's desword traitors and what not.

See above. I didn't ask for them to wait and burn away a flash to detain a potentially rogue borg, although I did offer it as a possibility of what they could have done I didn't punish them for this alone. Everything that the ban is about has already been said, and there isn't any need to further go in circles.

[Uncle Bourbon]

The main issue isn't simply because you went straight to killing it, or simply because you left it there, but that you did a mix of both without any form of attempted communication whatsoever. I can see where you're coming from when you went straight to killing it, though I'd disagree with the handling, but you also decided to just leave it in the brig without informing anyone or saying any attempt at communication for anyone to handle it.

So you banned them for leaving a borg they thought to be rogue in sec without saying anything? Did they learn it wasn't rogue and then do that or stashed it somewhere like evidence or interro? I'm confused.

[Okand37]

The main issue isn't simply because you went straight to killing it, or simply because you left it there, but that you did a mix of both without any form of attempted communication whatsoever. I can see where you're coming from when you went straight to killing it, though I'd disagree with the handling, but you also decided to just leave it in the brig without informing anyone or saying any attempt at communication for anyone to handle it.

So you banned them for leaving a borg they thought to be rogue in sec without saying anything? Did they learn it wasn't rogue and then do that or stashed it somewhere like evidence or interro? I'm confused.

Everything has already been stated in the original post. The HoS publicly announced they were going to execute a human being to which the borg came to arrest them, whether or not they saw the HoS announce this isn't being factored in. They arrived and saw a borg detaining the HoS and the HoS called out that it was "rogue" to which they killed it. I offered them the above stated suggestions that they could flash them and try to ask the A.I. what was going on, or ask another security officer to Law 2 the A.I. into telling them (since they had plenty of other security officers in abundance.)

After killing them, they simply discarded the shell and left it at that. They made no efforts to communicate about what should be done with it if anything at all. They later on learned that it was infact not rogue and decided to leave it anyway, and when adminhelped they stated that they knew it was following its laws as of the time it was detaining/arresting the HoS. The borg's shell was left in the brig hall on deltastation.
You are welcome to read through the previous posts and I would encourage you to do so to help clarify any confusions you may have, as they have likely already been stated.

[francinum]

I never said I knew it was asimov during me killing the borg. I acknowledged in the adminPM that yes, I technically killed it for following it's laws, but not that I knew that it was following them at that moment.

[Okand37]

A last note for anyone that is deciding to read the situation: This is and has been a day ban, it lasts 1440 minutes-also known as 24 hours (as was also neglected to be stated by the original poster.)
Any and every note or base that needed to be covered has already been covered. This appeal is vehemently denied (because its a day ban, it'll expire later today anyway) unless a headmin wishes to overrule this decision.

[Uncle Bourbon]

Hmm I see, I guess it would've been good idea to at least attempt to fix the borg after learning that, but the hos should have also tried too since he was the one saying kill the borg and its rogue. Seems silly banning and noting Francinum for something like that, unless they got into trouble like this and was warned before.

[Nilons]

I'm a little perplexed why someone would say "if that's a problem note me" then appeal when it happens honestly, all circumstances aside

[Armhulen]

"Watch me execute this guy"

That's all I wanted to hear, the borg was following it's laws to prevent harm and so this note will stay.

Thank you for clearing this up okand