[excessiveuseofcobby] pathofchaos1 Dayban security rev

[PathOfChaos1]

Pathofchaos1 - Cooper Winton
Banning admin: excessiveuseofcobby
Ban type: temporary ban
Reason: During a rev round, killed a couple of people who were close to an explosion in brig. After telling me he was aiming for the head to deconvert, I asked why didn't he stop when he realized deconversion wasn't happening. He responded with "that's metagaming".

If you're going to indiscriminately kill under the meta-knowledge of knowing how revs function, it seems like you're just trying to rack up kills when you turn around and claim metagame when I ask why didn't you take an avenue that didn't result in their death. Dayban 2880 minutes

Ban time: 2017-11-28 01:11:55 (server time?) 7:40 PM~ Cst for me.

Sybil - Meta station

It was a revolution round. I was the Head of security. The brig had just got bombed. I caught bellow the lawyers office. 1 Roboticist, 1 assistant wearing an atmos tech ID and mask,
1 lawyer, and 2 other assistants 1 happened later he had a stun prod, and armor. Due to the now lack of safe place for security, and the on going revolution. I made the decision to execute the people I caught right there in the holodeck/fitness arena area. I aimed for the head hoping that it would by chance deconvert. I had said this tot he admin. He gave me the remark why didn't I heal them when I didn't receive such a message. I replied its meta gaming, and I don't even know what the chance of that is. I'm sorry I made a conscious decision to hopefully keep some people in the round had I got the chance to. I apologized to the lawyer who was the only non-suspicious person, and wasn't in a weird area.

All of that round I had refrained from murdering people. Going the implant route. After the brig bombing I didn't have such a luxury. I'm sorry you got caught in the cross fire of being in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Following a brig bombing. Why was a member of science just bellow the brig after an explosion, along with another which escaped. Why was an atmos tech wearing assistants clothes and wearing a gas mask with yellow gloves. Why am I being banned for playing the most hectic job, and making the decision to execute following the loss of my stronghold. Why am I being banned for ATTEMPTING to keep people in the round had I received player feed back from attempting to aim for the head.

https://imgur.com/a/5CC1D These are some screen shots I took of conversations. I don't have any screenshots of visuals as I didn't feel that I would need to during the round. I don't know how to get the logs so you can see everything. That is what I'm working with.

What would I have changed? Nothing. It was a shitty situation thrown on me, and I was expected to some how make it fucking work. I didn't know after the brig was blown up, and supposedly only a few heads being left (Which almost everyone made it luckily but the HoP made it seem like there weren't.) I could't make a different situation. Im not going to spend time, and leave my self vulnerable to dress up people in space suits throwing them into space, or using the teleporter which I don't think HOS has access to pushing people onto mining. While a bomber could, and probably was on the loose.

[Cobby]

As I mentioned ingame, we give players a lot of leeway in their shitlery to be frank during revolution and other cult modes once they’ve confirmed it. However, outright killing people for simply being close to the brig is unacceptable with the exception of the guy coming with a makeshift baton since that’s fairly rational.

if you’ve beat them several times because you know it’s rev, and nothing happens, don’t continue to beat them to death when they haven’t done anything.

As for the metagaming bit,I believe you were answering for Y when I was asking for X so I’ll probably edit that later.

A part of me understands that this may just be a misunderstanding with exactly how much leeway we give sec during conversion modes, but at some point we have to draw the line. I believe killing people for only being around an area that got bombed is a pretty good place to call it.

[PathOfChaos1]

A part of me understands that this may just be a misunderstanding with exactly how much leeway we give sec during conversion modes, but at some point we have to draw the line. I believe killing people for only being around an area that got bombed is a pretty good place to call it.

You mean two science workers, and an incorrectly dressed atmos tech, during a rev round. Leaving the scene RIGHT AFTER THE BOMBING? is to much? WHEN I HAVE NO SAFE PLACE TO PUT THEM? Attempting to use a feature that I wasnt fully aware of how it works. Which I told you in the chat I don't even know the chance of?

Edited again: Further on what was I SUPPOSED to do. After I lost the brig to a bomb, with scientist Leaving the immediate scene one of which escaped.

[cedarbridge]

A part of me understands that this may just be a misunderstanding with exactly how much leeway we give sec during conversion modes, but at some point we have to draw the line. I believe killing people for only being around an area that got bombed is a pretty good place to call it.

You mean two science workers, and an incorrectly dressed atmos tech, during a rev round. Leaving the scene RIGHT AFTER THE BOMBING? is to much? WHEN I HAVE NO SAFE PLACE TO PUT THEM? Attempting to use a feature that I wasnt fully aware of how it works. Which I told you in the chat I don't even know the chance of?

Edited again: Further on what was I SUPPOSED to do. After I lost the brig to a bomb, with scientist Leaving the immediate scene one of which escaped.

Bombs are very rarely detonated by hand at the scene of the bombing. That would be silly.

[Cobby]

If there are people you suspect feel free to detain and search them. If you have Krav make sure to mute punch them too!

If a bomber existed they’d have either a device on them or have a dead man’s switch. If you were afraid of the latter it seems doubly odd you’d try to kill them.

You cannot win against them as they have little counterplay except for preemptively watching who does toxins. Regardless, that ‘s for a different thread and does not give just cause to kill 3 individuals for simply being near the site.

[PathOfChaos1]

The atmos tech was wearing INCORRECT clothing, and was hiding their identity. The roboticist had a proximity sensor in his bag. The other scientist ran off with a device in his hand. I was there RIGHT AFTER the bomb, Not a minute later. The boom, happened while I was in that area with those two leaving. I apologized to the Lawyer who was the only one truly caught in that line of fire. I want to know why I am defending myself when I have no other fucking options besides sit there and fucking surrender. They had just blown up the brig. The scientist Was not in his department, the roboticist was not in his department. The roboticist had an object in his inventory. The atmos tech was in desquise. The assistant who was in a monkey suit that ran off was a revolutionary, the assistant with a stun prod was a revolutionary. The scientist who ran off was a revolutionary. In the pictures I sent. I was also under the idea that I just lost my sec force, and a couple heads.

I'm sorry that the lawyer, and 1 random assistant. Caught the worst case of be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Had the roboticist not wanted to be suspected of being an accomplice to a bombing he shouldn't have been right near the bomb. He knows a revolution was going on it was announced. He should have stayed in his department, gone to the front door, or hid.

Honestly this is just aggravating me at this point. You have it in your mind that I am somehow supposed to do something else once i've lost the brig. To an explosion. All that round I attempted to use implants, and made sure no one else had to die. After I lost the brig I'm sorry I made the decision to execute people that are not implanted. I know I am not the only person who has made that kind of decision. Whether people like it or not. I believe I made the correct decision. I'm not going to let other heads of staff die. I also would follow the order of the HoS to do the same under similar conditions. Once the brig is gone security is hampered to much to function correctly. The round already leads its self to violence of this level. I had not given an execute order until the brig was destroyed.

I don't think you care enough about the round, and care more about banning someone. Every step I tried to pick a route that would keep people in the round over executing them. I even tried to beat the head hoping that I would get a message. Which I didn't sadly, and as far as I know it is only a chance to appear not guaranteed.

[Dax Dupont]

anon3 amendment post
I would like to point out that admins have okay'd on the whole "just kill everyone who's not been implanted" before and an admin has recently speared a janitor to death for slipping floors and acting suspicious.

In this case, it's a head of security player who's in the middle of the of a chaotic round, fending for his life, who lost most of his force and nearly got blown up which in itself is hugely chaotic. Meanwhile MULTIPLE people who are revolutionaries that just passed the area.
There's tons of fast decision making, tons of stress, limited information and others that happens during this.
Rev rounds ALWAYS result in people getting killed more or less indiscriminately, and in this case it seemed more than justified.

"He responded with "that's metagaming"." is also not a bad thing, metagaming is heavily discouraged even though it does happen.

Case in point see: Rule 2. It mostly discusses metacommunications but rule 4 precedent specifically mentions an instance of metagaming:

Atmos techs are not allowed to edit atmos at roundstart so that the AI cannot use it for malicious purposes. While this might not make sense IC, it's a necessary OOC precedent for some game mechanics to work. Atmos techs are allowed if they have any reasonable suspicion of the AI being rogue.

This headmin ruling is somewhat relevant:
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 27#p360927

[cedarbridge]

I don't believe that being present at the site of a bombing is the same as clearly setting a trap. If a bomb goes off and the first thought you have is "I'd better get to the scene and gun down any survivors" you aren't playing security. You're a deathsquaddie.

[Vynncerus]

I was the roboticist that round. I was away from my department because I was hunting for corpses to borg, and I had a proximity sensor because I saw it sitting on the ground, picked it up, and was planning on making a medibot or something with it. I was handcuffed and buckled to a chair already, and still the beating me to death continued.

[Cobby]

post

Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is like when you see some guy flashing people in medbay and you think everyone in the area is rev. Being in the wrong place at the wrong time is like when you try to help a guy up but lo and behold he was actually a rev being attacked by sec so you get considered rev as well.

Being near an explosion is not wrong place at wrong time. I mean it is for the bombing, but not for getting killed because they may be rev.

post

The strict action of killing a non-rev as hos during rev is not bannable. It is the circumstances surrounding the action that determines admin action. "being near a bomb site" is not the same as someone was in a crowd with revs or some guy happen to pickup a flash for defense and got lmao'd.

Sec is not antag in these conversion modes, and are still held to SOME rules of engagement even though we've progressively gotten more lax on them. If headmins want to consider security as basically antag-tier individuals ooc wise then that's fine, but until then this ban is staying.

post

Again, it's circumstantial. When the place is basically completely converted then sure, you can start killing people simply for not having an implant. However this was not the case, and the targeting was specific to people who were allegedly around the bomb site, which is not a justifiable reason to kill someone.

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I really have no intention on removing this ban so feel free to step in headmins.

[Nabski]

Oh, Atmos Tech "in disguise" here.

I'm 90% sure I was hanging around the brig because I got arrested for something stupid and security tossed me out taking most of my stuff so I was milling about trying to get it back. Your ban time is today so I can't really go log diving. I remember getting tossed out a side door and going fuck it I'm greyshit now. I don't remember anything about the beating, but I likely said fuck it after a bomb went off.

[PathOfChaos1]

During a rev round. its to circumstantial to kill people that are wholly suspicious? You know there is no way to convince you. if you think that what I did is wrong, then I hope you get robusted as HOS in the same situation. I killed 3 Very suspicious people. Milling around other suspicious people who fled the scene. During a revolution round. The worst fucking round to be suspicious after the brig is compromised. Which if you didn't read as well. More revolutionaries came to the scene to try and robust me. If that is not enough for you then I don't know what else will be. I want this elevated then to the next level of admin, or transferred to another admin. I stand by what I did. Without the brig I would urge every security member to make the same decision or risk severely screwing over the rest of the crew. The only way we can see a revolutionary is if we caught a rev head with a flash. Without implants there is no way to find regular revs . Without the brig there is no safe place for them, or security. If you think the time of passiveness continues after LOSING THE BRIG. Then you are by far the least robust security I have known short of not knowing how the game works.

[imblyings]

I do remember an incident involving a mime once, who was hanging around cargo after it was just bombed. Security tased, arrested, and found his traitor gear on essentially the same circumstantial reasons here, though it wasn't rev obviously. The mime wasn't actually responsible for the bombing but I ruled that arrest valid.

Afaik we also allow heads to just murderbone if they feel the station is lost and they are the only one left/there is no chance of implanting the crew one by one.

And if people want security to act more reasonably, then maybe they shouldn't be milling outside security right after a bomb hit it. If they were quietly doing their jobs in their departments or minding their own business in the bar or dorms or whatever they might be entitled to less violent actions from security but they chose to congregate around security right after it was attacked. They weren't engineers fixing the place either.

[cedarbridge]

Afaik we also allow heads to just murderbone if they feel the station is lost and they are the only one left/there is no chance of implanting the crew one by one.

If this is the case then we should probably move this to policy. I don't see any good reason that the expectation after a bombing is that sec murders everyone at the site of that bomb not already dead from the blast.

[imblyings]

To be specific, we let heads of staff blow the supermatter/release the singulo/flood plasma when there's no hope of implanting and deconversion. Permission to manually murderbone is a given because of that.

[Cobby]

And if people want security to act more reasonably, then maybe they shouldn't be milling outside security right after a bomb hit it. If they were quietly doing their jobs in their departments or minding their own business in the bar or dorms or whatever they might be entitled to less violent actions from security but they chose to congregate around security right after it was attacked. They weren't engineers fixing the place either.

Naturally they ran away AFTER the bomb left but got tracked down because they were "fleeing the scene".

If you stay there, you die for "milling about" if not dying from the bomb itself. If you leave, you're "fleeing" and therefore just a bad. It's a very silly situation when the correct answer is they're probably not the perps to begin with and you're just trying to unzip a murderbone using "sec during rev haha!" as an excuse. I mean search them if you'd like but outright killing over the matter because sus is dumb.

You can't expect people to know preemptively that there's a bomb going off, unless they're part of the antag group that's doing it (and even then that's a toss since rev doesn't have a hivemind chat). Also IIRC cargo was not down so implants could still be reliably maintained at the time and I don't think at any point during the appeal or during the initial ahelps did he mention he felt like revs had taken over the station. Also he tried to deconvert via hitting on the head repeatedly, and instead of picking up the cue that they weren't deconverting after several hits (making no attempt to heal them), he just hit them until they died.

I mean as i've said I don't mind security basically getting free reign during rev if that's what headmins want (or the line so loose as it is now than any attempt at enforcing rules of engagement of sec during rev is cause for policy discussion-tier threads), but it should be somewhere explicit so admins and players know what to expect administratively during a rev round.

[PathOfChaos1]

I explained to you I dont know the chance of that. It wasnt enough for you. I also explained to you. Losing the brig is intrinsic to losing the station. I dont know how many implanted we may have lost. The brig was also the last location known to me for two, if not three other heads of staff. Thankfully they were alright. If I lose a majority of man power that I know are implanted. Yeah pretty much anyone would consider the station lost. The HoP even thought it was just him, and myself. I cant fix other peoples non-communication.

Look my problem with this is. I played that round well enough. Before the brig got destroyed I did follow the implant route. After the brig got destroyed yeah I gave the mass execution order. I was making plans to take everyone quietly, and safely before hand. I guess you dont take the severity of losing the brig. Spare weapons laying about, armory easier to get to. Loss of security life. Loss of our stronghold. Security doesn't have access normally to the rest of the station. Its 1 per department, then myself. So now we have no mutual meet up location that is safe. We cant use it to safely heal, eat, and other wise recoup. We also lose a majority of our charges for our weaponry. We also now have no place to AFK/leave with some moderation of safety for the body. The whole basis of your argument is like I had some sick body count fantasy or some shit. Even though I tried to leave a route for them to possibly stay in the round which you also belittled me for.

I just hope this isnt going to stick to my account the ban timer is already over so I can't be unbanned. So go ahead and move this to a policy thread, or something.

[cedarbridge]

Even though I tried to leave a route for them to possibly stay in the round which you also belittled me for.

You were belittled for claiming that healing somebody who didn't appear to deconvert (because they were never converted in the first place) would have been metagaming. You were likely belittled for this because it is absurd.

[PathOfChaos1]

So what is it? A ban for trying to beat the head, and when it didnt work I didnt heal them? Im not wasting supplies on unimplanted during a revolution. Yeah beating them in the head not seeing a message is metagamey Here let me beat you in the face. No message well shit you must not be one (When its only a fucking chance) I gave the order to execute non implanted crew. That does not cover healing them afterwards. All it really sounds like when you repeat it back to me. next time just... fucking shoot, and not have any side hopes for seeing a message.

My mistake for attempting to take a small avenue using the feedback we get from the game to attempt... and fucking keep a few lucky people in the round if its possible.

[Cobby]

Feel free to make a policy thread since this should stay here in case headmins want to remove the note.

[Dax Dupont]

Another quick anon3 relating to gameplay/evidence, afaik hitting a head rev on the head does not deconvert and does not show a failure message so the whole not displaying a message argument goes right out of the window as well.

Also RNG.

Code is here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... 1334-L1337
Checks for /datum/antagonist/rev but head rev is /datum/antagonist/rev/head and can't be deconverted but by borging
See https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... #L153-L156

[Cobby]

Another quick anon3 relating to gameplay/evidence, afaik hitting a head rev on the head does not deconvert and does not show a failure message so the whole not displaying a message argument goes right out of the window as well.

Also RNG.

Code is here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... 1334-L1337
Checks for /datum/antagonist/rev but head rev is /datum/antagonist/rev/head and can't be deconverted but by borging
See https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... #L153-L156

It’s not thrown out the window when the problem was their only suspicious act is being near a bomb site prior to the blast.

[captain sawrge]

Real talk if your enough of a retart to try to stay neutral in rev when bombs are going off and then fucking sit around bomb sites you deserve to die

[Cobby]

It's not "sit around bombsites" it's

People are at location
Surprise Bomb blows
People naturally run away
OML THEY ARE FLEEING THE SCENE THEY MUST HAVE BEEN THE PERPS
*Kills all present*

Perhaps that's poor wording on my part.

[imblyings]

was this malice or gross negligence? If it is possibly gross negligence, is there a long history of gross negligence in the person's notes that demonstrate multiple admins have noted an unwillingness from this player to be reasonably careful about the experience of other players?

[Cobby]

It’s probably the latter and I don’t recall his notes but I do know there’s a few on there.

IMO regardless the note should stay since he now knows to be a bit more careful with his reasoning in the future. Otherwise it can repeatedly be deemed negligence since there’s no record showing he was told otherwise (except here which doesn’t count as I never look through requests in lieu of notes)

The ban expired a while ago as it was only a couple of days.

[PathOfChaos1]

That wasnt their only suspicious behavior just being near it. Roboticist had a Proximity sensor, and was near the scientist that also fled the scene holding a device himself. The atmos tech was dressed up as a greyshirt. The other two were more guilt by association. The only really non suspicious person was the lawyer. Another rev showed up with a stun prod to try and get me.

[Cobby]

I believe this thread has ran its course and I'm not interested with removing the note so I'm going to close the thread now and resolve it later if no other input is to be had.

As for the last post, I don't think there's anything to be gained by killing all of them unless you for some reason believed they all bombed, but I am quite frankly under the impression you didn't care if they actually bombed or not. This was also only mentioned several days after the event which also happen to be things that are quite difficult to log (not to imply you're lying, but that if that was the decision made at the time I believe you would have brought it up during the immediate discussion rather than several days after).

[imblyings]

Myself and Kor somewhere mentioned that we wouldn't have banned for this. Rev is shitty and chaotic and in addition to everything I or Kor posted elsewhere the only irregularity I have an issue with is the claim of metagaming.

I'm not gonna ride security on being able to strongly justify every kill or crit they do and it seems overbearing to act upon a hos confronted by anyone disguised and members of science after a bomb. I will say of you were willing to knock heads for a deconvert, healing then up would be nice. When I'm free I'll edit the note to something like that.