[Daturix] awesine - daturix clearly didn't look at the logs

captain sawrge · Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:15 pm

Did you actually ahelp when you lost a fight

captain sawrge · Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:20 pm

Admins aren't your fallback safety net for when things go bad in your epic scheme of revenge because you got owned for trespassing sorry it looks like you made this into an ooc issue yourself

Alipheese · Post by **Alipheese** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:27 pm #371268

I am sorting the logs into chonologic order and will make a post when I am done and am ready to post

feem · Post by **feem** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:28 pm #371269

I'm not going to dip too deep into this, but I want to address something:

The fact that a borg or AI opens the door for you does NOT mean it's not trespassing or that you're allowed to be there. People who run the place can still kick you out just the same as if you walked in behind them or broke in.

While multitools are generally pretty basic and most of the time they're overlooked or you can just ask for one, the facts that your theft was limited to a multitool and that your trespass was enabled by a borg do not excuse you from the consequences of your actions.

onleavedontatme · Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:32 pm

feem wrote:I'm not going to dip too deep into this, but I want to address something:

The fact that a borg or AI opens the door for you does NOT mean it's not trespassing or that you're allowed to be there. People who run the place can still kick you out just the same as if you walked in behind them or broke in.

While multitools are generally pretty basic and most of the time they're overlooked or you can just ask for one, the facts that your theft was limited to a multitool and that your trespass was enabled by a borg do not excuse you from the consequences of your actions.

A borg letting you in means you didnt break anything thoug so I guess it can be relevant in that regard

>consequences of your actions

If the OP is accurate a mob tried to torture/kill him over almost nothing, they didnt "kick him out"

He didnt try to kill people for "kicking him out" so this post is really not relevant to the thread

feem · Post by **feem** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:36 pm #371273

It is entirely relevant.

3. I never even greytided. I *literally* had the borg open the door so i could grab a multi-tool.

The player repeatedly stated that the borg let them in. I'm addressing the very common player belief that if they're able to convince an AI or borg to let them in someplace that they're allowed to be there. As I said, I'm not dipping too far into this, but I wanted to nip that because it's come up a few times recently.

onleavedontatme · Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:38 pm

The AI is often played as an authority figure so I can see why players believe that, but fair enough, I interpreted your post too broadly

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:47 pm #371277

You have to look at it from a security officer's perspective. Someone trespasses in engineering, gets the shit kicked out of them by the department's residents- Security is usually fine with that. I would be- If you told me that you got beaten up for trespassing when I was HoS I'd laugh in your face.

Then you come back for more with a spear and get caught by security. They're not gonna believe some assistant's lies. You can't solve things ICly so you decide to get the admins to ban the meanie that gulagged you. Yeah no.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:04 am #371280

You knew exactly what you did. You ran through engineering with a spear trying to get revenge on the engineers. If you don't see a problem with that you might be autistic

onleavedontatme · Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:06 am

Can people please stop arguing until darurix gets a chance to post logs

Okand37 · Post by **Okand37** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:11 am #371285

As it was asked to wait for the banning admin to make a reply, I am going to go ahead and lock the thread until they are able to do so. Conversation and arguments can take place when both sides have been able to present their stories. Perhaps take the time to think out what you'd like to say?

Alipheese · Post by **Alipheese** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:53 am #371293

Lost previous formatted version of this due to hitting preview while thread was locked, lost it cause I'm stupid.
Lazy ahelp log, then the collective say and attack logs since I got something IRL to do and I aint got time to redo my post right now. I apoligize, berate me when I get back later tonight.

Ahelp Log:

Spoiler:

Logs:

Spoiler:

Post by **Dax Dupont** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:09 am #371310

I was somewhat involved, security was being shit and I had to save him from being murdered by sec as a borg. Engineers were going over the top with their reactions too.
I remember him screaming for help, but at first I didn't know he was in engineering, and he did seem to be somewhat IC tortured.
As for security, it was bad, really really bad even for high pop standards.
That said, it's metastation and it has a public autholathe and the tech storage has multitools.
I don't particularly like awesine but even I have to admit that all sides in this conflict ic overreacted and that round was one of the more stressful rounds I've had lately, I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.

cedarbridge · Post by **cedarbridge** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:30 am #371316

Kor wrote:A borg letting you in means you didnt break anything thoug so I guess it can be relevant in that regard

Just off-loading a pet-peeve. "Breaking and entering" does not require property destruction. "Breaking" in this case is a legal term of art meaning to gain unauthorized or illicit access to a place one does not have possession or invitation to access. Entering is obviously the actual trespass act, but whatever was done to gain unauthorized access was the "breaking." Means the "But I didn't smash a window or anything" is a non-starter if we're talking about breaking and entering. Its really just a fancy term for trespass into a private structure or property.

onleavedontatme · Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:19 am

It's late and I was hoping for more explanation from Daturix as to their thinking but as of now

1) Awesine please dont try to pursue both IC and OOC resolutions at the same time, it isnt fair to anyone involved. When you picked up that spear to solve things yourself you gave up the right to adminhelp

2) Daturix, why do you consider lethal revenge for a torture/murder session rulebreaking? From his version of events and the ahelp logs I still feel in the dark about what rule he broke. You never broke it down for Awesine either when he asked in game

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:35 am #371352

I feel like the real reason to the ban should be ban baiting rather than murdering the CE- I would consider that perfectly fine. Adminhelping security for gulagging you after you waved around your spear was definitely ban baiting.

This right here is what makes me think it's banbaiting:
Line 7083: [22:30:50]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Daturix/(Jayne Staymates)->Awesine/(Keoni Reynolds): What interactions have you had with these two?
Line 7102: [22:30:58]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Awesine/(Keoni Reynolds)->Daturix/(Jayne Staymates): i was already arrested and released twice and this is the third time someone got me out of the brig
Line 7144: [22:31:17]ADMINPRIVATE: PM: Awesine/(Keoni Reynolds)->Daturix/(Jayne Staymates): I literally saw Ana while I was in the engineering lobby and that was it, i've been chased by them all round since them

What you left off: Oh, well, I was running through a restricted area with a spear in an attempt to get revenge on a few people.

You should've said instead: "A fucking borg let me inside of engineering and I go to grab a multitool. Two engineers + CE try to stun me and they eventually do and cuff me. They put me right next to the SM for around 7 minutes giving me around 500 rads, enough to injure me + cause hallucinations, plus they then freeze me under water causing me to go near-crit. I escape, and run back with a spear. I get into the lobby and attack the engineer who put me with the rads. I get a few hits in before security catches me and i'm running from and getting caught by security for like, the next 30 minutes. I see the CE in the hallway, slip him with water, spear him to death + space his body. The other engineer who I attacked first sees me, flashes me, cuffs me, and tries to throw me into the SM before the AI + cap + sec catches him. I get perma'd."

The ban should not stay for the reasons Daturix gave, but because you left vital information out of your ahelps in an attempt to get the opposing party banned because you lost a fight.

Alipheese · Post by **Alipheese** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 8:40 am #371360

So, from my perspective, ahelps about security taking their time handling him. I speak to the warden and officer. They say something about assault in engi. I speak with the ai to check this out. Ai set them to wanted for attacking the engi. Check with them and logs. They did go in and attack. I see in their say logs they have 2 different reasons to why they were in engineering. First they said they followed someone in and then after being stunned by a third security he said the borg let him in. By this time im talking to everyone getting the other sides of the story and atlanta ned alerts me they had killed the ce while i was talking to others. Check his attack logs and he did take the CE from negatives into direct death with a spear. By that point, i was 100% sure that he had caused the issue in engineering because of the multiple sides of the story confirming what the logs say. Which is the reason why they were arrested and being handled by sec when they ahelped the sec to me.

onleavedontatme · Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:29 pm

I dont think anyone debates he set off this chain of events in engineering*, I'm wondering why you consider torturing/almost murdering him at the engine over a theft to be sane escalation, but him killing someone for trying to kill them wasnt.

*Like as the very first action. The CE was responsible in his own way for acting like a psycho instead of just throwing him out or taking him to the brig. It could and should have just ended there

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 2:47 pm #371390

This was deleted for being "peanut posting," but I'm an administrator, and the last time I checked administrators were allowed to post about the rules. ("2. If you are not an admin or directly involved with the appeal (You are the guy who was banned, you saw what happened, you were his victim, etc.) then do not post in the appeal.") So:

There are a couple more misconceptions here:

- It's long been policy that if you break into a department, you open yourself up to creative shenanigans by the people of that department who don't want you in there. I'm going to call what the engineers did "creative shenanigans" based on your description of it. Giving people rads is also pretty similar to the example that people usually give here (break into genetics = you volunteer to be irradiated)

- Provoking a person repeatedly (being in a department when people have said they want you out, then breaking back in with a spear, counts as provoking people) does not make them valid. It definitely doesn't make it OK to space them.

- Engineering isn't medbay. At least on Box and Meta there is no public lobby. The engineering lobby is part of engineering, and being in there means you broke in again.

- Security is not obligated to tell you what you did, especially when you know exactly what you did.

- Being hostile to the admins does not make the admins nicer.

onleavedontatme · Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:00 pm

It is peanut posting when I ask everyone to stop and you do it anyway

Half your post is completley wrong or irrelevant as well, having a purple name doesnt mean you get to post however you want whenever you want

bandit wrote: - It's long been policy that that if you break into a department, you open yourself up to creative shenanigans by the people of that department who don't want you in there. I'm going to call what the engineers did "creative shenanigans" based on your description of it.

And the rules say:

You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere. If someone is severely disruptive and returns after ejected, this opens them up to "fun" of the creative workplace death variety.

Provoking a person repeatedly (being in a department when people have said they want you out, then breaking back in with a spear, counts as provoking people) does not make them valid. It definitely doesn't make it OK to space them.

Did you read the thread? He returned with a spear after they fucked him up with the engine. You cant use events out of order as retroactive justification.

He isnt asking for the CE to be banned either so I dont know why you're in here making a case for him.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:08 pm #371396

Just addressing the security part, since the rest seems to be debated to hell and back already: Admins get a lot of those ahelps, and 7 times out of 10 the answer is "it was reported over security radio." 2 times out of 10 it's "someone PDAed security a tip." Other options include: the detective got info, you were unlucky enough to get the one warden who watches security cameras, AI/borg involvement, someone saw you walk into an room that became covered with blood immediately after, etc. Just like real life, if you commit a crime, you have to take into consideration people might find out.

xp: I'm not saying killing the CE is bannable. I'm saying that killing the CE is absolutely grounds to get arrested (which the OP seems to be confused about) and that ahelping getting arrested for it is bad (which the OP did). From the logs and everything here it seems like one of those instances where everything would have been greytidey but understanding were it not for the banbaiting (of security)

onleavedontatme · Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:23 pm

Just addressing the security part, since the rest seems to be debated to hell and back already:

I'm not saying killing the CE is bannable.

Provoking a person repeatedly (being in a department when people have said they want you out, then breaking back in with a spear, counts as provoking people) does not make them valid. It definitely doesn't make it OK to space them.

Could you please stop posting in this thread? You continue to get the timeline incorrect and arent adding anything that others havent said (every single admin has told him to not ahelp sec while trying to get IC revenge)

onleavedontatme · Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:34 pm

Actually just going to again lock the thread again until Daturix can post since their own reasoning about escalation is the only question left at this point and nobody else is going to be able to answer that.

Alipheese · Post by **Alipheese** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 3:57 pm #371402

Kor wrote:Actually just going to again lock the thread again until Daturix can post since their own reasoning about escalation is the only question left at this point and nobody else is going to be able to answer that.

Sorry, shoulda checked the forums sooner as i was up all night drinking at a friends and still am.
My escalation was the assault on the engi warrented the arrest which was the reason for the ahelp. I merely was investigating that until the engi i believe (yes?) Did state they let them soak some rads, but he did continue the 'revenege' or murder of the ce during investigation. To continue to cause troubles for the situstion as I was handling it is not proper of the player and is only making it a worse situation for them. I did not see any retaliation other the others while i started speaking with him.
As for the ahelps ending where i did not respond to awesine was due to my typing of his ban reason. I should have just copied what i wrote and waited to spply the ban after speaking some more.

Edit: should probably say that in how I see it, going into someones department and they forcibly remove you does not make them valid. It makes them a security issue.
Also awesine you were by no means perma'd. I applyed a 3 day ban.

Post by **Cobby** » Sat Jan 06, 2018 5:42 pm #371410

awesine wrote:
Alipheese wrote:
Kor wrote: Edit: should probably say that in how I see it, going into someones department and they forcibly remove you does not make them valid. It makes them a security issue.
they didn't just forcibly removed me, they INTENTIONALLY gave me damage and near-critted me *instead* of just throwing me out.

I agree. If someone wants to minmax the rules to do as much damage to you but try to play within escalation, you should be able to return with lethals.

I believe my only issue with it is that you seek revenge then fallback to admins when a third party puts a stop to it.

Line 6918: [22:29:30]ADMINPRIVATE: Ticket #10: Awesine/(Keoni Reynolds): so shitsec has been chasing me and arresting me for like 10 minutes now not even telling me what i did - heard by 3 non-AFK admins who have +BAN.

Should have been "Hey can you make sure security is arresting me for the engineering thing or are they being shitcurity?"

Loading the initial ahelp with the implication you dindu instead of telling the admin you and engineering have been at conflict and it may be because of that is really my only issue with the situation on your end.

Now radding someone up because they entered your area once seems pretty shitty.

Post by **Cobby** » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:54 am #372142

This was locked but I dont see like an official resolution so uh if there’s any issues from admins or awesine just message me somewhere (preferably forums or ingame so it’s easily logged)

onleavedontatme · Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:16 am

Official resolution is the escalation was fine, adminhelping mid escalation while leaving out details and continuing to escalate while people are busy answering admin PMs was not fine

/tg/Station 13

[Daturix] awesine - daturix clearly didn't look at the logs

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