[Arianya] BigPenorBoi - Banned for getting killed?

[bigpenorboi]

Byond account and character name: BigPenorBoi / Tyrone Gucciston
Banning admin: Arianya
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Server ban
Ban reason and length: "Rule 0 Ban: You've had multiple issues with escalation over the past few weeks, and its now at the point where every ticket borders ban baiting, in spite of multiple admins trying to explain escalation to you. When you feel you understand escalation and are ready to come back you are welcome to appeal this on the forums." Permanent
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 15:15 or so GMT, round 88510
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story:

I was playing botanist, I went to go get a chem dispenser. I walked into chem and then there was a swarm of people that made it nigh impossible to move and in all this tussle the chemist stabbed me into blindness with a screwdriver. I ahelped it and was told its fine.

Come back to see botany making no progress, other botanist was downright terrible and the chef was the only one actually trying to grow anything with any success. Eventually I got fed up and told the other botanist to just stay out, when he came back I grabbed him to make him leave and he pushed me to the floor and killed me with a hatchet. He tried to feed gaia but it only had 3u of earthblood so did nothing. He made no effort beyond that to take me to cloning, medbay and even prevented an assistant taking my body which ended in a fight with the chef and assistant that killed him.

I ahelped it obviously and Arianya responded saying that because I did an aggressive grab I started the fight (was a misclick for the record) and said he is allowed to retaliate to which I responded saying that I was always told that if you kill someone you didn't mean to then you should make every effort to save them which he didn't and even actively prevented. Arianya said that since he left my body in the middle of the bar where anyone could clone me it was fine, to which I mentioned how the botanist actively tried to stop me from being cloned.

Arianya went silent, I ahelped on the same ticket a couple times asking if they were doing anything and Alexch2 responded saying he was looking into it and getting more experienced admins. Then a few minutes later, banned.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

Considering I was banned for a situation I felt the escalation was invalid considering they went lethal immediately after only being grabbed and I was left for dead it feels strange to get banned after that scenario. For doing the exact same thing as the other botanist I have been warned before even after I tried to save them yet when it is done to me it's valid. Additionally it would be nice to get a little bit more correspondence with the banning admin instead of ignoring me for 5 minutes then banning me. Additionally, a grab is usually not counted as instigation unless it's used for tabling just like a disarm is usually not counted but this is not specified in the rules and depends entirely on which admin you talk to it feels. Sometimes a push is instigation despite causing no damage, sometimes it isn't.

[Arianya]

To clarify, on advice the ban was amended to be a Rule 1 ban shortly after application.

[Nabski]

You've racked up 14 notes/bans in a period of 2 months.

On average this is one every six rounds you played.

[Dax Dupont]

This was a ban applied with a small discussion in adminbus after your continuous horrible behavior, this isn't incident specific.

It's stuff like nuggeting people for minor B&E and constant banbaiting.

[bigpenorboi]

I didn't nugget him over it, I did the same thing I have had captains do to me and be called valid which is a limb for B&E. Considering I was told that being held for 5 minutes plus having my arm removed was valid for vandalism.

[bigpenorboi]

You've racked up 14 notes/bans in a period of 2 months.

On average this is one every six rounds you played.

I find this largely in part due to inconsistency in the administration, things that I were told are valid are no longer valid and vice-versa all the time since every admin seems to have a different policy of what is/isn't allowed.

[Dax Dupont]

I didn't nugget him over it, I did the same thing I have had captains do to me and be called valid which is a limb for B&E. Considering I was told that being held for 5 minutes plus having my arm removed was valid for vandalism.

You removed two legs and you were working on the arms when I bwoinked you and you didn't stop, the first arm very nearly came off but the ban took you first.

[pubby]

I find this largely in part due to inconsistency in the administration

Yeah, admins can be pretty inconsistent. But you can avoid them most of the time if you play nicely with others.

14 notes/bans means 14 people were unhappy enough to ahelp your behavior. If you don't want admins to bother you, you gotta learn how to avoid pissing people off. That's the reality of this game.

:hurray:

[Saegrimr]

Could an admin clarify on the "One aggressive grab making you valid" thing because this shouldn't be encouraged even if you are looking for a specific reason to "IC issue" someone's problem.

[bigpenorboi]

I didn't nugget him over it, I did the same thing I have had captains do to me and be called valid which is a limb for B&E. Considering I was told that being held for 5 minutes plus having my arm removed was valid for vandalism.

You removed two legs and you were working on the arms when I bwoinked you and you didn't stop, the first arm very nearly came off but the ban took you first.

Working on arm singular, I explained it all to him and said to pick or I would take 3 and he just stayed dead silent. I have had similar shit pulled on me without surgery or medical treatment just a captain's sword and some handcuffs and had it be valid.

[imblyings]

Equating captains delimbing you and you delimbing others is dumb and provides no argument as it's highly contextual.

[Arianya]

This is going to be a long one, since I'm justifying a permanent ban. I'll append a TL;DR at the end if you really don't care about the specifics:

Reason for ban

Spoiler:

As Dax noted, this ban is not for the specific incident in that round, but rather for a pattern of behaviour that has arisen over your time with us. I don't just tot up note numbers, but a substantial proportion of your notes are about escalation. Inconsistency in the admin team is an unfortunate reality, but it doesn't lead to the kind of rapid inflation of notes you've gotten. There are people with 10 or even 100 times more connections then you who manage to have fewer notes, let alone a running string of notes on the same issue with a portion of our rules.

You are, of course, a relatively new player, and so some difficulties might be forgiven, but a running theme from the tickets I've dealt with as well as seen either as another admin on the server or from logs posted by other admins is that there is never any agreement or understanding from you on the clarification that admins try to give you on the rules. You simply perpetuate your view (including to the point of trying to insist you were told it was okay by someone else, with no specific names remembered) or try to bring up past incidents, even ones in which the particular admin had no hand, as an example of why you are right or why a previous note/ban should be undone.

Not only is this exhausting for admins, but when it becomes the same story for every ticket, the only impression we can get is that either:

a) You have such genuine difficulty understanding the rules that multiple admins over multiple sessions have been unable to get it through to you
or
b) You're not acting in good faith

Now, of course, we're not omniscient, we can't divine your intentions other then by inferral and hunches, but at this point either of the above is the reason why I don't believe you belong in the community further.

The Straw that Broke the Camel's Back

Spoiler:

The round in question, you raised two tickets (it was actually more like 4, but I'm not counting the new tickets you opened due to disagreement with the ruling). The first was an ahelp about being blinded by the chemist for trying to steal their chemmaster, during which you alleged that you had been told that this was fine for botanists to do (again with no specific person in mind when probed deeper) and that you felt the chemist had breached space law by blinding you. Alexch2 picked up the ticket at first, and advised you that in fact this was really on the low end of things the chemist could have done in defending his workplace. As has become the pattern for you, you at first refused to agree to this ruling, and then wheeled into trying to discuss this in light of your job ban from head positions. Eventually I stepped in, both to ask some follow up questions regarding the original incident, provide some specific links to Escalation Policy and references to defense of the workplace, and to close the door on any further arguments on this one specific ticket.

Later on in the round, having been unblinded, you ahelped being attacked by your botanist co-worker, and I picked up the ticket, speaking to the other botanist and checking logs. What became clear is that:

- You disliked the other botanist's performance in the role
- You shouted at him repeatedly, first to not touch your plants, and then to leave botany entirely
- You aggressive grabbed him, which was then broken
- You then threw produce at him. In this case, it was no throwforce pumpkins, but regardless you continued the physical nature of the incident.

Based off this, I was happy that you had started an incident, and then escalated it to physical force. I did agree that killing you outright based off this might be a bit much, so I discussed it with the other botanist. It became clear that not only was he not intent on killing you outright, but that he had taken actions towards trying to keep you alive, before he was even bwoinked. Intent is notoriously hard to read in this game, but generally speaking I find that actions speak louder than words, and trying to feed you a healing plant, however ineffectually, to me satisfied me that he was atleast trying. An altercation then blew up between him and an assistant, ostensibly over your body, and in the ensuing period your body ended up abandoned in the public area of the bar, very noticeably.

Based off this I didn't feel that the other botanist had tried to remove you from the round unduly, and that the escalation of the situation was tentative enough that it was most likely an IC issue. What bugged me about the ticket was that your language seemed to have changed but your behaviour had not. Instead of trying to cite Space Law you were now citing Escalation, but your line of thinking remained much the same and the whole incident almost seemed manufactured to cause conflict.

Again, I'm not omniscient, I can't proclaim to know your intent, but when every ticket gives me the vague sense of banbaiting, despite the multiple conversations you've had with admins about escalation, then something isn't right.

Points for Improvement & Eventual Unbanning

Spoiler:

As I noted in the ban itself, this isn't a "we want you gone forever" ban, but rather a ban to give you a wake up call on escalation policy. You keep rubbing up against this one sore spot of policy and it's clearly not improving. You also seem to carry a lot of discontent over your previous notes/bans, judging by your need to bring them up at every turn. I think it would be best for you if you spent some time off /tg/, maybe play other servers, and get a feel for the game in general. There are servers out there with more relaxed escalation which you might find a better fit, but failing that I'd be happy to consider an appeal in a month or two with a reference from another server.

TL;DR

Spoiler:

You've kept running into issues with escalation despite multiple admins trying to help you understand it. It's become a repeated issue now and your tickets are a constant low level feeling of banbaiting. I think at this point you need to spend some time away from /tg/ or on other servers to get a better feel for the game and escalation especially. You are welcome to appeal this in a month or two with a reference from another server.

As a result of the above, I am denying your appeal, subject of course to headmin review if they see things differently.

[bigpenorboi]

including to the point of trying to insist you were told it was okay by someone else, with no specific names remembered

I don't keep a log on which admins have said about what, the expectation that I would remember who said something to me almost a month ago is unreasonable.

An altercation then blew up between him and an assistant, ostensibly over your body

Meaning he was preventing me from being cloned, which is not trying to heal me. He left my body in botany for the longest time.

try to bring up past incidents

My point is that quite often I will do things that have been done to me and have been valid that when done by me are invalid

Equating captains delimbing you and you delimbing others is dumb and provides no argument as it's highly contextual.

A captain delimbing, holding and not providing medical to me for vandalism and me delimbing someone as a captain for breaking and entering aren't comparable? Almost exactly the same situation but one was called valid and the other wasn't.

[Cobby]

Could an admin clarify on the "One aggressive grab making you valid" thing because this shouldn't be encouraged even if you are looking for a specific reason to "IC issue" someone's problem.

Aggressive grabs now soft-stun/100% disarm. If you get tabled you can get grabbed again long enough for the hold which is a pain to resist out of.

It's hard to say that it shouldn't be treated as violence when stuns are the bread/butter of how you kill someone a majority of the time.

[bigpenorboi]

Could an admin clarify on the "One aggressive grab making you valid" thing because this shouldn't be encouraged even if you are looking for a specific reason to "IC issue" someone's problem.

Aggressive grabs now soft-stun/100% disarm. If you get tabled you can get grabbed again long enough for the hold which is a pain to resist out of.

It's hard to say that it shouldn't be treated as violence when stuns are the bread/butter of how you kill someone a majority of the time.

I didn't table him or anything though, I walked to the door with him, I made it plain and obvious I just wanted him gone from botany since he was genuinely bad.

[Cobby]

I won't harp on this incident too much since it seems to be just part of a larger problem but exactly how do you botany "bad"?

[bigpenorboi]

I won't harp on this incident too much since it seems to be just part of a larger problem but exactly how do you botany "bad"?

Letting plants die, not producing many plants in the first place, not improving stats. Only reason we had ambrosia gaia was the chef, since I was too busy having my eyes gouged out and the other botanist was himself. Basically he did nothing but put a few seeds in hydroponics trays and stand in the way

[Cobby]

I imagine a world where random internet people help each other out in a videogame people take way too seriously.

Anyways please discuss this general notion rather than harping on this incident.

[Dax Dupont]

This ban is not incident specific and follows a line of consistent bad behavior.

We'll let the headmins decide

[oranges]

we have around 6k players, losing 1 guy who's a redundant shitter is no loss, keep him tossed.

[Nilons]

including to the point of trying to insist you were told it was okay by someone else, with no specific names remembered

I don't keep a log on which admins have said about what, the expectation that I would remember who said something to me almost a month ago is unreasonable.

then expecting to use it as evidence is equally unreasonable

[CitrusGender]

From the metacomming incident to here, I think we've seen enough BigPenorBoi problems to show that this server just isn't right for you. One note every six rounds is REALLY bad (though I will state that some of these notes shouldn't have been notes.) The Jaz escalation policy note comes into play here and the (almost)nuggeting is especially telling.

Take some time at another server and come back here.