[AN0n3] Killed a guy during nuke ops

[UtterNewbie]

Byond account and character name: UtterNewbie, Pow Ergam
Banning admin: AN0n3
Ban reason and length: You have been jobbanned by an0n3 from: Head of Security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer.
The reason is: Murdering the chaplain during a nuke round for picking up an egun off a dead captain.
This jobban will be lifted in 10080 minutes.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): Sybil, nuke ops round minutes before this post.

Your side of the story:
Syndicates are spotted and reported by AI, I'm a security officer currently in brig dealing with someone arrested for assault. I arm up as HoS (warden?) brings out guns from armory and I release the offender because emergency. After I make my way to bridge from west side I see it is locked, I proceed further towards HoP line but I notice someone in black jumpsuit with a gun standing over a dead and stripped down captain alone in meeting hall. I laser him once (or twice possibly) because I can't stun him over the window. He falls into crit right away so I start making my way into bridge to get to captain and secure the disk. As others see me get stuck in bridge doors, one engineer hacks the doors open so we can all go after captain. They were unaware of him being dead and I called it out as soon as I seen them to come help me. We go to meeting hall through west windows because I have no idea why, door was right there. We make it in through the table, I start providing CPR to chaplain (the guy I shot to crit), he ghosts almost right after that (or dies, which seems unlikely since not much time passed since he fell into crit.

Afterwards we realize that disk is gone from captains body and we're done. Station goes boom minutes after. AI was dead during entire ordeal and comms were down.

Why you think you should be unbanned:
I used the only method available to me to subdue a guy who I thought was responsible for killing the captain during a nuclear emergency. There was a window and a grille in between me and him. Tasers do not penetrate windows so I was left with no option but to switch to lethal, risking him looting nuke disk off captain when caught flat handed was unacceptable. I only hit him as much as to crit him and not kill him. He must have been pretty hurt already as he fell into crit from a single (or 2) laser shots. As I was shooting to subdue not to kill. I even provided CPR after we got to him inside room, after which he ghosted and died.

[Timbrewolf]

He must have been pretty hurt already as he fell into crit from a single (or 2) laser shots. As I was shooting to subdue not to kill.

[15:54:46]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:47]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:48]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:48]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:49]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>

No. You prettymuch emptied it into him.
As a sec officer you shouldn't be executing people on the spot like that.

[Hornygranny]

https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Leth ... thal_Force

[UtterNewbie]

I honestly thought I shot him only once or twice because he fell down so quick.

As HG linked, we're allowed to use lethal force to subdue a target. Fact is I stopped once he fell down and tried to revive him once he was no longer a threat and manage to get to him. He chose to die from what I understand and ghosted.

"Security is to use non-lethal force first when in contact, unless there are significant risks in doing so. "
"Significant risks may be, but are not limited to; hulks, changelings, nuclear operatives, cultists, revolutionaries, wizards or subverted and/or malfunctioning silicons. "

Risk here being station exploding due to nuke disk being stolen.

He was behind glass which prevents use of non lethal force.

[QuartzCrystal]

Did you at least examine him first?

[UtterNewbie]

Did you at least examine him first?

Yes, he had chaplains ID and was wearing a black jumpsuit. I did not know whether or not he was dressed as him or was actually him. Trying to ask someone with a gun over a captains corpse to tell you something while he's there all alone and most likely looting him, is not very smart. I subdued him to the best of my abilities, and did not kill him on the spot or execute him. I crit him and once we got to him I provided CPR after which he died (ghosted?). Again there is no way to taser someone through glass. Running around and looking for an entry was out of the question as he would have been long gone by then.

I would also like to note I had an e gun and a laser gun, having well enough firepower to kill him while he was down, which I did not do.

[Timbrewolf]

What clues did you have that he was a nuclear agent in disguise?

What tipped you off?

It's okay to use lethal force against a Nuclear Operative.
But anyone you might suspect is a Nuclear Operative?

[UtterNewbie]

What clues did you have that he was a nuclear agent in disguise?

What tipped you off?

The gun in his hands and him looting captain during a nuclear emergency, alone in a room. I don't know whether he had a helmet or gasmask it might in fact have been chaplains hood. Either way his face was obscured so I had no way of knowing if he was the real chaplain.

[QuartzCrystal]

Did you at least examine him first?

Yes, he had chaplains ID and was wearing a black jumpsuit. I did not know whether or not he was dressed as him or was actually him. Trying to ask someone with a gun over a captains corpse to tell you something while he's there all alone and most likely looting him, is not very smart. I subdued him to the best of my abilities, and did not kill him on the spot or execute him. I crit him and once we got to him I provided CPR after which he died (ghosted?). Again there is no way to taser someone through glass. Running around and looking for an entry was out of the question as he would have been long gone by then.

Nuke ops dressing up as the chaplain to kill the captain seems kinda silly. If someone with a ID matching who they actually are is around when I know nuke ops are the real threat, I'll probably shout out to the chaplain instead of shooting him 5 times with my laser. This was crappy, it's just a week sec ban though. Some were saying you deserved a day off or what have you, but I think going for the CPR after makes that option unnecessary. You jumped the gun and took out a fellow crew member ally. (also being in crit for 10 seconds and then choosing to succumb, especially during a nuke op round, is really understandable)

[Timbrewolf]

What clues did you have that he was a nuclear agent in disguise?

What tipped you off?

The gun in his hands and him looting captain during a nuclear emergency, alone in a room. I don't know whether he had a helmet or gasmask it might in fact have been chaplains hood. Either way his face was obscured so I had no way of knowing if he was the real chaplain.

But he wasn't dressed like a Nuke OP. You didn't witness him murder anyone. He was trespassing on the bridge and stealing a weapon, sure. But he wasn't doing anything hostile, you didn't make any effort to try to arrest him or ask him what the hell was going on. You just emptied a laser into him through a window.

Because he might have been a badguy and he might have tried to run away.

That's not how sec is supposed to operate.

[UtterNewbie]

Nuke ops dressing up as the chaplain to kill the captain seems kinda silly. If someone with a ID matching who they actually are is around when I know nuke ops are the real threat, I'll probably shout out to the chaplain instead of shooting him 5 times with my laser. This was crappy, it's just a week sec ban though. Some were saying you deserved a day off or what have you, but I think going for the CPR after makes that option unnecessary. You jumped the gun and took out a fellow crew member ally. (also being in crit for 10 seconds and then choosing to succumb, especially during a nuke op round, is really understandable)

He chose to succumb after being provided with CPR. Please read the rules regarding lethal force, we're authorized to subdue targets we can't otherwise, and use it especially during a nuclear emergency. Had he been a real nuclear operative and in fact dressed as chaplain he would have been gone seconds after he seen me, I responded as fast as I could so that could not happen. Again my intent was to subdue.

I believe a week ban regardless of your opinion on my guilt is obscenely long for a crit on someone looting captain during a nuclear emergency. It was in my opinion IC and reasoned given the situation and place it took.

[UtterNewbie]

But he wasn't dressed like a Nuke OP.

Nuke ops are not bound to their clothes and may in fact dress as not nuke ops.

You didn't witness him murder anyone. He was trespassing on the bridge and stealing a weapon, sure.

During a nuclear emergency. Being alone in room with a dead captain. Looting him. We don't witness nuke ops killing anyone the moment we see them but we open fire on them regardless to take them down. Even if we fire the first shot.

But he wasn't doing anything hostile, you didn't make any effort to try to arrest him or ask him what the hell was going on. You just emptied a laser into him through a window.

I subdued him to prevent him stealing the nuke disk from dead captain I assumed he killed. I couldn't "make an effort" to arrest him any more we make an effort to arrest nuclear operatives trying to nuke the station. Had I intended to kill him I would not stop shooting once he fell into crit. That was the possible extent of me arresting him without compromising the entire station to a nuclear explosion.

Because he might have been a badguy and he might have tried to run away.

Had he tried to run away, being behind glass I had zero chance of going after him and stopping him from jumping to disposals or otherwise just walking out because I'm too far to reach him in time to track him.

That's not how sec is supposed to operate.

Security during nuclear emergency is supposed to fight the syndicates and protect the disk from them.

[Timbrewolf]

Let me boil this down as much as possible:

Nuke Op = guy in red space suit with SMG typically running amok killing people

Nuke Op != anybody you might think could be a stealth Nuke Op in disguise

If you see a guy you think might be a stealth op, you need more than what happened here before you're allowed to click that egun over to lethal and hose him down. Typical signs include: carrying syndicate weapons, wearing syndicate armor, attacking crew members, being identified or called out over the radio by name, among others.

And furthermore, don't shoot lethal lasers at people to "subdue" them. That's also shitcurity.

[UtterNewbie]

Nuke Op = guy in red space suit with SMG typically running amok killing people

Nuke Op != anybody you might think could be a stealth Nuke Op in disguise

Are you honestly telling me a guy looting a dead captain alone in a room with him with a gun in his hands is NOT looking like a sneaky op?

If you see a guy you think might be a stealth op, you need more than what happened here before you're allowed to click that egun over to lethal and hose him down. Typical signs include: carrying syndicate weapons, wearing syndicate armor, attacking crew members, being identified or called out over the radio by name, among others.

Again a window between me and him, no other way than to switch to lethal to keep him there and not run off with the nuke disk. What the hell do you expect me to do? Ask the guy nicely while he takes the nuke disk? I had an opportunity and I took it. He turned out not to be a syndicate and I got banned for it. Everything pointed to him killing the captain and looting the corpse looking for the disk. I did not kill him, he ghosted himself after being given CPR from me.

There was no other way to stun arrest or otherwise stop him from getting away with the disk other than critting him and getting to him afterwards. Literally no other way. Had he been a real nuke op, had I hesitated for seconds he would have ran off or disposaled himself.

And furthermore, don't shoot lethal lasers at people to "subdue" them. That's also shitcurity.

You can't shoot tasers through windows. I never lethal laser to subdue unless it's facing a hulk or otherwise unreachable targets such as this. You can look through my history, not once have I abused my security authority to fuck someone over for no reason or kill for no reason. I play security almost exclusively, and I know how to play it well without killing innocent people in the process.

Think of my choices:
a) not shoot and have the syndicate run away with disk
b) type out a question and have the syndicate run away with disk
c) run all the way around meeting hall looking for an entry and having him run away with the disk

Please do provide me with a scenario where had he been an actual syndicate, would not result in him running away. There were no comms or AI to warn anyone of him had he got away. Nobody near him or me. He chose to die, he was being revived and I did not kill him.

[Timbrewolf]

If there was no way for you to get to him and try to dissolve the situation in a non-lethal manner how were you able to get on the bridge so quickly after critting him to start giving him CPR and then claim he must have succumbed?

That doesn't add up. You couldn't get to him fast enough so you had to shoot him to death with lasers, but you were able to get to him fast enough to give him CPR and make a show of trying to revive him.

Obviously there WAS a way for you to get in there and get to him.

But again, your first reaction was "see suspicious guy -> shoot with laser until satisfied"

We expect more than that out of our sec officers.

[MrStonedOne]

Think of my choices:
a) not shoot and have the syndicate run away with disk
b) type out a question and have the syndicate run away with disk
c) run all the way around meeting hall looking for an entry and having him run away with the disk

This is something I've been trying to explain to people:

'If I do it the right way I could lose' is not a valid justification for lethal force. I think the term for that is called play to win, or at least, it comes shockingly close to it.

Sec policy has flaws, there will be times you get dunked because you had to role play it out and wait for someone to actually give you a reason to use lethals, and that's intended.

1: It prevents things like this, where assumptions prove wrong and a guy gets his round ruined by sec because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
2: It prevents security from being overpowered.

Its called role playing. In what world would actually doing what you did be acceptable?

Just because we let you run in the halls does not mean rp goes out the window.

We ban AI's for assuming someone is a changeling for little reason, "but, he got up from a stun a little too quickly, if i didn't bolt shock him in he could get away."

This isn't too far off from that.

[UtterNewbie]

If there was no way for you to get to him and try to dissolve the situation in a non-lethal manner how were you able to get on the bridge so quickly after critting him to start giving him CPR and then claim he must have succumbed?

That doesn't add up. You couldn't get to him fast enough so you had to shoot him to death with lasers, but you were able to get to him fast enough to give him CPR and make a show of trying to revive him.

Obviously there WAS a way for you to get in there and get to him.

But again, your first reaction was "see suspicious guy -> shoot with laser until satisfied"

We expect more than that out of our sec officers.

I didn't get there quickly. In fact it took a while. Check times for me shooting glass and shooting him. I mean I don't have access to logs, you do.

And he was not shot to death, but to crit. Had he been a syndicate and seen me breaking in, he would just kill me on the table as I crawl through, or better yet run away. I didn't make a show, if you haven't noticed by now, I never grief. Literally never. I have no enjoyment from killing FNR or griefing, and never had. I tried to revive him and you're telling me it was a show. I go way out of my way to save and help people, every round.

You're stretching an awful lot to make it look like I killed someone FNR. When in fact all that happened was an unreachable guy getting crit so he can be subdued, during nuke ops as he was looting a captains corpse with gun in hands. If you really honestly believe I did it to grief, I don't know what to say.

[UtterNewbie]

This is something I've been trying to explain to people:

'If I do it the right way I could lose' is not a valid justification for lethal force. I think the term for that is called play to win, or at least, it comes shockingly close to it.

Sec policy has flaws, there will be times you get dunked because you had to role play it out and wait for someone to actually give you a reason to use lethals, and that's intended.

1: It prevents things like this, where assumptions prove wrong and a guy gets his round ruined by sec because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
2: It prevents security from being overpowered.

Its called roleplaying. In what world would actually doing what you did be acceptable?

The policy clearly states we're authorized to use lethal force in case of nuclear emergency or where not doing so would result in significant risk. Can you elaborate how this was not the case?

• Security is to use non-lethal force first when in contact, unless there are significant risks in doing so.
• Lethal force during contact is authorized when the security force faces a significant risk, now or later, by resorting to non-lethal means.
• Significant risks may be, but are not limited to; hulks, changelings, nuclear operatives, cultists, revolutionaries, wizards or subverted and/or malfunctioning silicons.
• Lethal force is not allowed on appropriately subdued threats, unless there are extraordinary circumstances.

It's RIGHT THERE IN THE RULES. He was a significant risk, there were nuclear operatives and not doing so would result in station being nuked since I couldn't stun him. Why do you have the rules when you don't care for them.

Are you telling me people don't shoot to maim armed murderers? Especially when given no other option to subdue. Again, not kill, maim. I had no reason to kill and only needed him incapacitated, which I did in the only way presented to me.

I mean we're talking about a nuclear device being involved and people trying to activate it, and you bring out the roleplay card because someone got shot as he was holding a gun over a corpse? The very corpse having the means to detonate the nuke? There wasn't even comms and AI was down, it was chaos and you're telling me proper roleplay would be like in real world, stand still for a while as I type out a response to the armed assailant?

I made a judgement call and decided that maiming a guy was worth not having everyone on station die, besides he could have been easily revived had he not been responsible. But he chose not to.

[Timbrewolf]

I don't think you're a griefer, I think you have a very flawed thought process when it comes to deciding who to unleash on.

I'm asking you to slow down. You have to consider that you're taking someone out of the rest of the round on a hunch. You're supposed to err on the side of caution. We don't ban people for not being good enough and being too slow on the draw and losing a round to the antagonists.

We ban people for being too gung-ho in trying to win that other random players get caught up in it and killed because you thought they might have been a threat.

You keep saying you weren't trying to kill him, only subdue him or incapacitate him but:

[15:54:46]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:47]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:48]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:48]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:49]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>

You shot him five times with a lethal laser in three seconds. That's not the measured application of force you keep trying to make it out to be. Shooting someone until they're down on the ground dying then investigating them to see if they were actually what you thought they were is not proper security procedure in ANY round. I can drag him to cryo/get him cloned/etc. only works as an excuse when it's actually an accident.

MSO said it wonderfully. You should give equal consideration to what will happen if you're right and also what will happen if you're wrong when you can't be 100% sure.

• Significant risks may be, but are not limited to; hulks, changelings, nuclear operatives, cultists, revolutionaries, wizards or subverted and/or malfunctioning silicons.

It's RIGHT THERE IN THE RULES. He was a significant risk, there were nuclear operatives and not doing so would result in station being nuked since I couldn't stun him. Why do you have the rules when you don't care for them.

Notice how it doesn't say "suspected" changelings, "suspected" nuclear operatives, "suspected" cultists, etc.?

That rule is there so when a Nuke Op running around gunning people down with an SMG gets lasered to death by the HoS or another officer he can't whine in adminpm's that the Captain didn't authorize the execution, that he didn't get a fair trial, etc.

It's not there so you can just ventilate anyone you suspect might be an antagonist.

[UtterNewbie]

You shot him five times with a lethal laser in three seconds. That's not the measured application of force you keep trying to make it out to be. Shooting someone until they're down on the ground dying then investigating them to see if they were actually what you thought they were is not proper security procedure in ANY round. I can drag him to cryo/get him cloned/etc. only works as an excuse when it's actually an accident.

I sincerely apologize thinking it was 1 or 2 times, I only shot until he was in crit and incapacitated not dead. Had there been other way to incapacitate him such as a stun shot, I would have, but there' was a glass wall, grilles and tables between us. I do consider it an accident as him being at the wrong place doing the wrong thing and at the worst of times.

MSO said it wonderfully. You should give equal consideration to what will happen if you're right and also what will happen if you're wrong when you can't be 100% sure.

I did. if I was right I would have prevented a disaster. If I was wrong he could have been revived on the spot thanks to bridge medkit. We all even spawn with inaprovaline injectors.

Please do post the entire log from the incident starting with at least the moment I opened fire, if he indeed died before I could provide CPR then I have made a mistake and will eat the ban and not even say a word more, because him dying was never my intention. If he chose to die as he was being revived then I have no regrets over my actions and consider them justified IC, dying from crit due to suffocation takes a long time and I had more than enough to get to him to revive him.

[Timbrewolf]

It'll take a sec, I'll put them together and post them in a moment.

[15:54:15]SAY: Pow Ergam/UtterNewbie : Get them fucking radios.
[15:54:16]SAY: Cecily Hincken/Scones : Did I hear a sword?
[15:54:35]SAY: Cecily Hincken/Scones : JESUS
[15:54:46]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:47]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:48]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:48]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:49]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Cecily Hincken(scones) with The laser</font>
[15:54:56]SAY: Pow Ergam/UtterNewbie : <i>AI door</i>
[15:54:59]SAY: Pow Ergam/UtterNewbie : FUCK
[15:55:02]EMOTE: Cecily Hincken/Scones : <B>Cecily Hincken</B> gasps!
[15:55:10]SAY: Pow Ergam/UtterNewbie : CAP DOWN
[15:55:22]EMOTE: Cecily Hincken/Scones : <B>Cecily Hincken</B> gasps!
[15:55:29]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) shot Charlie Price(*****) with The laser</font>
[15:55:36]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Pow Ergam(utternewbie) climbed onto table </font>
[15:55:44]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Cecily Hincken(scones) CPRed Pow Ergam(utternewbie) </font>
[15:55:44]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Cecily Hincken(scones) CPRed Pow Ergam(utternewbie) </font>
[15:55:46]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Cecily Hincken(scones) CPRed Pow Ergam(utternewbie) </font>
[15:55:47]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Cecily Hincken(scones) CPRed Pow Ergam(utternewbie) </font>
[15:55:47]ATTACK: <font color='red'>Cecily Hincken(scones) CPRed Pow Ergam(utternewbie) </font>
[15:55:47]EMOTE: Cecily Hincken/Scones : <B>Cecily Hincken</B> seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless...

I think maybe one of those lasers went wide and hit the captain? highlighted in blue. The attack and CPR are highlighted in red. So you can see that Scones was down for about a whole minute before the CPR started.

I have to admit I'm not an expert when it comes to exactly calculating how long it takes someone to die from oxyloss after being critted. I can't tell exactly how much health Scones had before he ate the laser barrage. I also know that there's a delay between clicking on someone to CPR them, and the CPR actually taking effect.

So he was critted on the ground for a minute, and then passed away three seconds after the first CPR click.

To be honest I really don't know what any of that proves. Typically when someone succumbs after being critted it only affects whether we ban someone in an accidental death. Like "whoops I accidentally punched a guy and he dropped, then succumbed before I could try to heal him what do". Not "I shot a guy with a laser five times and then he succumbed when I started giving him CPR".

Like I said before, shooting someone into crit as a sec officer so you can heal them and arrest them or whatever afterward is shitcurity and not a substitute for trying to actually subdue them. If you guys were in a firefight and he walked in front of your laser and dropped, then succumbed immediately and tried to say "That asshole shot me in the back and murdered me look!" we'd all throw that right out.

I'm not sure if that log indicates he willingly succumbed or not, I'm not capable of doing that math, but I don't think it makes a difference. Even if you'd somehow miraculously saved his life, and he got up and was still mad about it and ahelped it, you'd probably still be banned. Because like I said, sec officers shooting people into crit as a method to temporarily detain/subdue them is shitcurity.

[QuartzCrystal]

I tried to point out before that being in crit for a full minute during a high pressure nuke op round (it's high pressure when the chaplain is pulling equipment off a dead captain in hopes to help the crew at large) is basically unfun torture. If I found a dead captain and then was lasered into crit BY ANYONE during a nuke op round I would probably succumb pretty quick so I could at least watch the last moments of the station play out than stare at a mostly black screen and hope someone takes me to cryo.

Also, if nuke ops have been announced over the radio they're almost definitely not going stealth ops dressing up and impersonating the chaplain (who I don't believe was wearing a mask, so the name and face would have matched up completely). The fact you say "I don't know whether he had a helmet or gasmask it might in fact have been chaplains hood." is nuts and clearly you playing dumb especially considering you said you examined him.

[UtterNewbie]

HG please at least have the decency to post to picture. This is getting ridiculous.

[leibniz]

I dont agree with this ban. In some situations you are forced into using lethal force. Nuke ops were confirmed, stunning this guy was impossible and there was a chance that he was going to loot the nuke disk and blow up the station.
He could have been saved after being put into crit but he chose to succumb.

as hg posted https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Leth ... thal_Force

Also, "You are playing a game where you are not fully in control of everything. You will be put into situations beyond your control, which will result in some rounds being ruined for you. Man up and deal with it. However, if you are obviously griefed, be sure to report it to administrators by using the ‘adminhelp’ verb. ".

[scaredofshadows]

I honestly thought I shot him only once or twice because he fell down so quick.

As HG linked, we're allowed to use lethal force to subdue a target. Fact is I stopped once he fell down and tried to revive him once he was no longer a threat and manage to get to him. He chose to die from what I understand and ghosted.

"Security is to use non-lethal force first when in contact, unless there are significant risks in doing so. "
"Significant risks may be, but are not limited to; hulks, changelings, nuclear operatives, cultists, revolutionaries, wizards or subverted and/or malfunctioning silicons. "

Risk here being station exploding due to nuke disk being stolen.

He was behind glass which prevents use of non lethal force.

If you want to reduce the situation to black and white terms like this, you lasered a chaplain to death for no reason. They weren't posing an immediate threat to you and you could not confirm that they were a nuke op. This is as black and white as it gets - the jobbans will stand and I would have daybanned you for murder.

[UtterNewbie]

SoS if even you can't see that this was a bad ban or even take the effort to understand the situation, then I don't care anymore and won't repeat myself.

I only got back after my previous quit because elections looked promising, nothing changed. In fact it's only worse. Go ahead and extend the ban to perma.

This is resolved. I appreciate everyone that tried to help me.

[scaredofshadows]

SoS if even you can't see that this was a bad ban or even take the effort to understand the situation, then I don't care anymore and won't repeat myself.

I only got back after my previous quit because elections looked promising, nothing changed. In fact it's only worse. Go ahead and extend the ban to perma.

This is resolved. I appreciate everyone that tried to help me.

No, I'm not issuing a permaban for you. You're welcome back if you decide to return, but just use your head as a security.

[UtterNewbie]

just use your head as a security.

It is unbelievable how out of touch you are.

[scaredofshadows]

just use your head as a security.

It is unbelievable how out of touch you are.

Explain. How is it out of touch to require that you refrain from lasering an obviously non-hostile chaplain to death in a nuke op round?

[Timbrewolf]

I'm upping your secban to a permanent secban after further looking at the logs and your testimony.

A central point you've been making this entire time was that you couldn't tell if this person was a nuke op or not, but after looking at the logs I noticed you didn't have to remove any gas mask from Scones before you were able to CPR them.

Which means if you had taken the instant it requires to examine them before you lasered them you would've noticed that this crew member was in their uniform and wearing their appropriate ID. You held your cursor over them long enough to fire five times but couldn't shift+click once.

[UtterNewbie]

Chaplain hood does not block CPR it seems.

I said from the beginning the entire story over and over, always the same thing. Yet you still keep mentioning things I already said as if they were never said telling me I keep making new things up.

What's the point anymore? You ignored everything, I said here I examined him and what I seen, you say I didn't.

I don't know whether he had a helmet or gasmask it might in fact have been chaplains hood. Either way his face was obscured so I had no way of knowing if he was the real chaplain.

You're a joke. And oh my this topic was already in resolved, you just want to keep embarrassing yourself and come up with more lies?

Good job on the perma, after I asked for it. Make it a server perma, not just job ban. That will teach me to act according to rules! You know, like the sec policy.

[Timbrewolf]

But that's the thing, that's not true.

I don't know whether he had a helmet or gasmask it might in fact have been chaplains hood. Either way his face was obscured so I had no way of knowing if he was the real chaplain.

I assumed he had a gas mask because the Chaplain's hood doesn't block people's faces. And I've done my best to try to accept what you've said as the truth, until the logs or your own testimony have contradicted it. So I was a bit surprised when I noticed in the logs you never had to remove a gas mask before administering CPR. Because here's the thing:

proof.png

This mob has no ID, is wearing the Chaplain's Hood, Hoodie (the exo portion of their outfit) and an assistant's formal jumpsuit.

It's important to note that, upon examining them, they are not an unknown. The Chaplain's Hood by itself does not hide your face. So your claim that his face was obscured is rendered totally false. He didn't have a gasmask on and the hood wouldn't hide his face.

Also on topic is that while wearing the outer robes, the Hoodie, his uniform under them is still visible.

So I can pretty soundly conclude that you didn't even stop to examine the person before lasering them into crit. Because if you had you would've noticed that it was genuinely the station's actual chaplain wearing his own uniform and not the nuke op with his face obscured you assumed it was without making any effort at all to find out.

Good job on the perma, after I asked for it. Make it a server perma, not just job ban. That will teach me to act according to rules! You know, like the sec policy.

I give you only what you earned and what you're owed. See:

No, I'm not issuing a permaban for you. You're welcome back if you decide to return, but just use your head as a security.

Though you'll have to make a perma appeal before you ever play sec again.

[UtterNewbie]

Chaplain's hood doesn't block people's faces.

I'm not a walking encyclopedia on spessmen, it's a full face mask from the sprite, I have never tried before to see whether it blocks face in code or not, neither did you until now.

This mob has no ID, is wearing the Chaplain's Hood, Hoodie (the exo portion of their outfit) and an assistant's formal jumpsuit.

It's important to note that, upon examining them, they are not an unknown. The Chaplain's Hood by itself does not hide your face. So your claim that his face was obscured is rendered totally false. He didn't have a gasmask on and the hood wouldn't hide his face.

Yes, he had chaplains ID

I'm unsure now whether you're actually trying to be this dense on purpose, you yourself had to try out whether it blocks face in code because you didn't know. I didn't know either. And he had the ID, so he did not show up as unknown regardless. It's like all these obscurities are common knowledge, I don't know from top of my hand everything that blocks ID on examine and what does not. I go by visuals but even those aren't descriptive.

I don't even want to be unbanned at this point, I just want you to realize you're wrong. I've had enough of admin abuse the last 2 days I played to last me a while. I'm not coming back. Go ahead and make it a server ban. You know you want to, it's what you think I deserve. Why hide it?

I was already gone and only returned because I believed in you and the election making a change. I advocated you, but you're even worse than HBL who made me quit in the first place. That takes real effort. I've got to hand it to you though, your campaign was near flawless and fooled me and many others.

[QuartzCrystal]

While I appreciate that An0n3 is trying to make his position clear, and that UtterNewbie is frustrated with the ban I just want to say I already pointed out that if UtterNewbie did indeed examine the chaplain, he would have seen that the name on the ID and the face matched up (as the chaplain was not wearing a mask).

SoS also slammed the gavel on this.

[UtterNewbie]

as the chaplain was not wearing a mask

I already answered that I had no idea that chaplain hood doesn't cover face, as it is a full face sprite and have never tried it myself.

Not to mention I'm pretty sure the chaplain was black.

A fun exercise, does a regular eva space helm cover your ID?
Answer:

Spoiler:

Depends on current date.

Also I don't understand why this was reopened after being closed, I already said several times I have no desire to lift any ban anymore and am not even playing the game.
I guess you guys enjoy being proven wrong over and over?

PS: I'd like my "Rarely plays" tag now.

[Timbrewolf]

A thread is closed when it's been locked and moved to the resolved appeals thread.

I'm happy, I've proved that you were so quick to laser this guy to the floor you just saw his player sprite and didn't even bother to actually examine him first. This wasn't a case of an extreme emotional situation, this was someone with a raging murderboner attacking the first thing they thought they could justify killing.

I'm glad you made this appeal instead of just clamming up and taking the ban because it forced me to look over the logs again and reinvestigate the circumstances. In doing so, it was revealed things were even worse than I had initially been lead to believe.

You made no attempt to actually confirm anything about the person you shot before you shot him. You're terrible and if you stick to your promise of never playing here again I think the server would be the better for it. Nobody is going to go tack on extra dramatic bans because you requested them or give you special forum titles. Mind your hysterics and don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Jordie0608]

I think this has gone on long enough past both administration and user resolutions.