[Imsxz] Zaffinomlb - Cult round, Human harm, and Cyborgs

[Zaffinomlb]

Byond account and character name: Zaffinomlb | Snake Plissken | Captain
Banning admin: Imsxz
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Temp Ban
Ban reason and length: Reason: As the captain, killed a borg that he /assumed/ would try to drag a cultist away. Didn't visibly make an honest attempt to repair them, this appears to be excessive use of force. Appeal it if you feel my ruling is incorrect.

This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 1440 minutes. The round ID is 93235.
Time ban was placed (including time zone): Server Time: 2018-08-31 03:25:27
Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: Nearly round start cult confirmed go to medbay grab first captured cult. Interrogate him and get names of all the cult and start the process. Once he gave enough names I shot him with a shotgun, and right as I did it the borg ran by. The same borg he was in sec saying shit like "Dont hurt XCatGirl NameX sec!", "I know she has a dagger, but don't hurt her." something to those effects, and that was for a non-human. So right as he was shot the borg law it and started b-lining to try and drag the cultist away. So I ran into the reeducation chamber and went to keep him in the locker with lethal and the borg followed and attempted to grab the cultist. I didn't have a flash to I couldn't disable him non-lethally, and so I shot gunned him till he was disabled. Locked up the cultist, grabbed the borg and dragged it from reeducation to the main brig area, and when I was flagged down by hop. Hop had captured a cultist and was pestering me about what to do and this happened a few more times from various people. Literally around the time I disabled the borg I believe the shuttle had already been called, and both the robotics had committed suicide. I don't know how to fix borgs that well.
Why you think you should be unbanned:
Because I made an effort and was then bogged down due to multiple in game reasons that were related to the responsibilities as a head of staff and game mode.

Lmsxz insisted that I could have talked to the borg to not take the dead human and just have healed him it would have caused the borg to just GOOO away. However if you look at this honestly and objectively you know any borg will drag off any human that it sees getting shotgunned in the chest and you know it. No matter the context.

[imsxz]

Hi. The primary reasons the ban was placed is because I believe the escalation was handled poorly on your end, and you've had previous warnings concerning this.

The main two reasons I came to this conclusion are as follows:
1) The borg never actually dragged away anyone. It may have /seemed/ like it was going to, but your assumption removed the borg from the round. The borg was dragging a medkit at the time, indicating that it was expecting you would heal it, not that it would be attempting to drag the prisoner away.

2) Most importantly, before I messaged you, there was hardly an attempt to repair the cyborg or get it repaired. It was left in the middle of the brig without a word. I would have settled for leaving it in front of robotics, but having it left in the middle of an access restricted brig is hardly an effort to revive them. I understand you may have been busy, but I can't imagine a more lazy revival attempt other than leaving it where you gunned it down.

[gum disease]

I hope it's okay for me to post, given that I was the borg involved in this.

1) I knew that Erza was a cultist and that he was harmful. Silicon policy clearly states that freeing a harmful prisoner is a harmful act on its own, so I would not have taken him out of the brig. As I was a janitor borg at the time, I did not have the means to heal him. As imsxz said, I instead opted to drag a medkit from the brig medbay area behind me to demonstrate to you that I wanted you to heal him, given that you were not injured (IIRC). You did not try to parley with me or even say anything to me. Instead, you just gunned me down which killed me instantly before saying "No." There was no way you could've avoided seeing that medkit and you shot me the moment I entered the room.

2) I was encouraging you to be lenient with Hanna because I wasn't 100% certain if she was cult. There was some confusion about what was happening in the morgue, and I happened to see Hanna with a ritual dagger in her hand. I didn't see her do any cult magic, but I brought her to the brig just to be safe. I even dragged a high capacity water tank from botany to the brig after I initially left her with sec (and asked you guys to not hurt her if possible) because I wanted people to be deconverted, especially someone whose cultist status I couldn't confidently ratify. Yes, she was non-human and as an asimov borg, I do not have to care about what happened to her, but when I play, I try to be kind to everyone. When I returned to the brig, I saw that she'd been straitjacketed and also gagged, which was preferable to her being killed outright so I assumed sec was trying to keep cultists alive to be deconverted and implanted.

If you had spoken to me (even a "Borg, stop/stop" would've been enough) and told me that the situation was untenable (no chaplain = no holy water), I wouldn't have intervened outside of asking you to at least heal Erza up so he wasn't in crit and detain him. Frankly, if you'd done that and then asked me to leave, I would've done so given that sec hadn't demonstrated harmful behaviour (from what the AI/us borgs had seen) prior to that situation. You didn't even do that and basically took me out of the round because you assumed I'd break silicon policy/rule 1 (by removing a harmful individual from the brig), which is unfair and is why I ahelped to ask if it was valid. I know it's very easy to be a bad silicon player, but I think I did what I could, given the situation.

[Zaffinomlb]

there was hardly an attempt to repair the cyborg

You tacitly admit I made an attempt. Remove that line form the adminnote then.

"sec hadn't demonstrated harmful behaviour"

There were two dead cult assistants and you had just witnessed shotgunning someone in the head. All other information before that is void. See harm remove human from direct harm. You ran up just within a tile of the dying human who you saw just get harmed by me. Grab him or not intent was made clear by those actions.

Station security(In the context of being captain) > Borg aiding station threat.

Ill make that call again and again.

[gum disease]

there was hardly an attempt to repair the cyborg

You tacitly admit I made an attempt. Remove that line form the adminnote then.

"sec hadn't demonstrated harmful behaviour"

There were two dead cult assistants and you had just witnessed shotgunning someone in the head. All other information before that is void. See harm remove human from direct harm. You ran up just within a tile of the dying human who you saw just get harmed by me. Grab him or not intent was made clear by those actions.

Station security(In the context of being captain) > Borg aiding station threat.

Ill make that call again and again.

Yeah I think you didn't read my whole sentence there. We silicons had not seen those assistants die. I even checked the logs for that round and the AI hadn't mentioned any harm in the brig until after you killed me. So how exactly was I meant to know that you/sec had killed those assistants without jumping to unfounded conclusions? I only saw you harm Erza, which is the situation that I was concerned about. Erza was in crit and I believe he was bleeding from his injuries. Me dragging him away would've probably killed him. I already knew that he was harmful and it literally says in the rules that releasing a harmful prisoner is also a harmful act. They're both law 1 issues. That is why I brought the medkit and was hoping you would at least stabilise him. That way, he would remain in the brig area to prevent escape/causing any more harm, would be stabilised health-wise to an acceptable level and I could then leave to do other stuff.

I even asked said this:
[2018-08-31 03:11:19.465] SAY: 03:11:19.465] SAY: GUM DISEASE/(Oil Slick) "NO!" (Brig (105, 166, 2))
[2018-08-31 03:11:23.182] SAY: 03:11:23.182] SAY: GUM DISEASE/(Oil Slick) "WHY?!" (Brig (99, 172, 2))

I questioned you about what you were doing. If I was just going to drag him away, I wouldn't have bothered typing. I was going to ask you to heal him when you shot me to death. So I think that, plus me dragging a medkit behind me demonstrates that my intent very much wasn't what you assumed it to be.

The main issue here is that you killed me and then just abandoned me in the brig. Yeah, you may've been busy, but you still made the choice to kill me, so the onus is on you to do more to get me restored? I wasn't expecting you to reboot me yourself. Hell, even telling the AI to get someone to fetch me would've been better than what actually happened. At the end of the day, I'm also another player trying to play the game and I think that permanently taking me out of the round over that wasn't okay. I understand that it's annoying when borgs are harping about harm while you're handling security matters during situations like cult, but cmon.

[Cobby]

By virtue of silicon policy, you can't kill sillycones for following (default asimov) laws.

That said though, cult makes it very difficult to fix a mistake depending how badly they've steamrolled in the round due to conversion mechanics.

Is the ban reason grounded in them killing the borg or them not fixing the borg?

[Rustledjimm]

I can edit to the note to state extenuating circumstances.

Still a dick move to the borg though.