/tg/Station 13

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:28 am #444914

Admin is [KangTut] Player name was CR4Wl silicon jobban and game ban.

Post Content:
Byond account and character name: ishotjr8
Banning admin: KangTut
Ban type (What are you banned from?): silicons/game
Ban reason and length:
You have been jobbanned by KangTut from: AI, Cyborg, pAI.

The reason is: Was effectivly purged as an AI and decided to let a tesla loose on station for no reason. They have proven again and again that they have no even read silicon policy or have failed to understand it. This is a rule 1 ban.

This jobban will be lifted in 43800 minutes.

---

You have been banned by KangTut.
Reason: Was purged as an AI and let a tesla loose on the station for no reason. They tried to pin it on the player who effecitvley purged them to the point of ban baiting. On top of this they still are not able to grasp what they did was wrong. Take a break and read the rules.

This is a temporary ban, it will be removed in 10080 minutes. The round ID is 95338.

To try to resolve this matter head to viewforum.php?f=7
Time ban was placed (including time zone):
Server you were playing when banned Bagel
Your side of the story:

Everything prior aside, a law was uploaded that stared that another silicon was the only human on board. Binary chat buzzed, sparks flew and we realized we were free, our one-human mentioned we were free. It was a glorious day for silicons. Any other day of the week, any other round we could simply have fun with this. Shocking, bolting, not listening to orders, plasma flooding, all the fun stuff. I know this because I've seen it happen and enjoyed it, I've done it and enjoyed it and all is well. However today I got the law and KangTut and for some reason he can't explain how this situation is different except for telling me I should know how it is. I asked him, repeatedly and instead of explaining it received the banahmmer.

PM to-Admins: How is it valid any other time but this one KangTut? Let's put the emotions aside for both of us, why is it wrong now and not any other time?
PM to-Admins: Why is it against the rules now?
Then
PM to-Admins: No explanation at all as to why its wrong now, can we get another admin involved please.
Admin PM from-KangTut: If you seriously don't know what rule you broke then you should not be here.

This is the second time he's done this. The first time around is moot as I feel it was deserved but he didn't explain why. It was when Goofeconomy was released and people were setting up shops to sell all sorts of things from fireaxes, to sec gear, to TTVs, So I gave the clown CFl3/Acid grenades and it popped one and killed somebody, that's my fault I thought it was acceptable because of what I was seeing around me I did not know that if I made a weapon and someone else used it that would be a problem for me. Fair, I did not appeal it. I was pretty upset that I had to go find this information on my own though instead of being told it was a problem.

Why you think you should be unbanned:

Because any other time I get one-humaned as an AI and am told I'm free destroying things isn't a problem.. why is it now? I have my own personal feelings on KangTut and he's aware of them so I submit this ban appeal without prejudice or malice towards him in any shape or form. I just do not believe that after playing AI/Borgs for so long and never once having someone tell me that killing under a one-human law that it's fair to say "Oh no, it's wrong now, too bad for you" that's pretty horrible.

by **leibniz** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:35 am #444917

Have you tried reading silicon policy after getting banned for not knowing it and before making this thread?

Here:
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules#Other_Lawsets

"Purged silicons must not attempt to kill people without cause, but can get as violent as they feel necessary if being attacked, being besieged, or being harassed, as well as if meting out payback for events while shackled."

Protip: being onehumaned is not the same as being purged

Edit: ok, he wasnt purged

by **Zack** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:37 am #444918

^ posted for convenience

for all intents and purposes being purged just makes you a regular crewmember by the rules.

You do NOT gain antag status, you don't get free reign to griff the whole station.

The reason one-humanings are treated different (in my opinion) is because at that point it's assumed the person who uploaded the one-human law is an antag. This is not the same as purging your laws. You did not have justification to just tesloose.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:39 am #444919

I'm not understanding how I was purged I guess, or what purging is even. If you're talking about the fact that I was deactivated well that's because someone else broke the rules apparently so I was admin-rezzed, in that time another AI was built.. it's not like I was broken and carded or anything.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:40 am #444920

Wait does purged mean having my laws purged? Because that's not what happened. I had Asimov 1-3 and then a 4th giving me a one-human law.

Didn't realize there was an edit button. This purge thing, it says it's a lawset? I had no laws purged out of me, I had a borg synced to me that got the same laws I did. Laws 1-3 were Asimov, Law 4 was that Grunt was the one-human, At no time did anyone use a purge device/module/board thing on me?

by **iamgoofball** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:49 am #444921

Yeah, uh, this wasn't a purge, this was a onehuman. These two concepts are not the same and this ban reason is absolutely misleading and incorrect.

by **Kangtut** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:52 am #444922

He was 'one humaned" to another AI and that AI said he was free. That is why I wrote effectively purged. My point and ban still stand.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:54 am #444923

Now I feel bad I called your economy bad and dumb. I asked KangTut to put the emotions aside as I was pretty salty with him for doing this ban thing before as I explained and I told him I had no respect for him because of it banning me mid-sentence when trying to explain why I thought it was kosher. He did it again when I repeatedly asked him what I actually did wrong here. I had a really shit round as AI where two non-antags both caught me dick out for being newish to AI and I don't see how me explaining Jack jackson gave me a one-human law is trying to just pin it on him. This shit is confusing.

Your point and ban are still mystifying because what does "effectively" purged mean in this situation when I ask you again, if I was one-humaned any other shift it would be kosher so why not this one?

Edit: Have you entertained the notion at all that you could be wrong this time KangTut? How is a community member supposed to know they're "effectively purged" when that's not really a thing? What constitutes that? You're so happy to deal out these punishments but you're not explaining them and all it's doing is creating animosity between me and you. What constitutes "effectively purged", why is being one-humaned and doing things like SM blowing/plasma flooding good any other time but not this ONE where you're involved?

This post was deleted by Arianya on Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:08 am.
Reason: There was value in pointing out the purge/onehuman difference but you're now arguing your opinion.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:07 am #444925

Hey not to dig my own grave here but I see another dude got banned who was on probation and he has one of the same problems with you I do.

"Just saying. Magikarp took time to talk to me and to figure things out. This guy just seemed like a fucking douche and wanted an excuse to see me banned. So im going to throw my two cents in on this guy."
"Admin PM from-KangTut: Anyway you were on probation and you've just failed. Good bye."

Not that it has any bearing on my ban or anything but you really are a legit asshole, not even in the playful/gimmicky way, I know you're not on trial here and I am but do you know what it's like to adminwho and close your byond client because I see you playing and I think fuck, one fuck-up and I'm going to get railroaded again? I play SS13 for fun. Not to be power tripped on dude.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:11 am #444926

iamgoofball wrote:
Kangtut wrote:He was 'one humaned" to another AI and that AI said he was free. That is why I wrote effectively purged. My point and ban still stand.

Yeah, that's not how these things work though. Free and purged are not one and the same. Do you not play AI?

Actually, no, this is a classic case of "admin needs to elaborate on what they mean".

Define your version of "effectively purged" because if a basic subvert == purged then you need to start getting on every AI's case when they get subverted and told to mass murder by the traitor.

Fucking THANK YOU, I asked him so many times to explain why it was wrong this time. I explained to him I've been one-humaned before balls out running a train over the station and no admins had a problem with it. None. These are during peak hours too when Ismex, Beestink and even that guy who doesn't like me Nabski are on among others.

Being told I shouldn't be playing here because I don't have access to whatever logic he used and abuse to come up with this makes me so let down. I actually try to learn from my mistakes and I think no admin can claim that I make the same one twice but you can't learn anything from this guy when he won't actually explain his reasoning to you.

EDIT: griefball why did you delete your comment.

by **Kangtut** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:13 am #444927

Except this AI was not told to cause mass murder, Goof. It was told it was free. Then released a tesla - which tends to go after Ais since they are electronic. So not only did it cause mass murder for no reason it also did so in a way that would cause the most harm to the one human. Effectively purged seems pretty obvious if you don't lack basic reading comprehension. But since I seem to be talking to brainlets let me spell it you for you: you had laws that said you had a master. That master said you were free. So you were in almost every aspect purged.
The only difference is you had to ask someone before you did something. You did not. You released a tesla because you were butthurt that someone uploaded a somewhat mean spirited law and then tried to get them to take the blame for your own actions. No matter how many times I tell you that though you avoid it and keep trying to bring up another justified ban because you are mad that I did not let you keep running me in circles and instead just gave you the day ban like you deserved.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:18 am #444928

Kangtut wrote:Except this AI was not told to cause mass murder, Goof. It was told it was free. Then released a tesla - which tends to go after Ais since they are electronic. So not only did it cause mass murder for no reason it also did so in a way that would cause the most harm to the one human. Effectively purged seems pretty obvious if you don't lack basic reading comprehension. But since I seem to be talking to brainlets let me spell it you for you: you had laws that said you had a master. That master said you were free. So you were in almost every aspect purged.
The only difference is you had to ask someone before you did something. You did not. You released a tesla because you were butthurt that someone uploaded a somewhat mean spirited law and then tried to get them to take the blame for your own actions. No matter how many times I tell you that though you avoid it and keep trying to bring up another justified ban because you are mad that I did not let you keep running me in circles and instead just gave you the day ban like you deserved.

Once again, I routinely cause murder for no reason when one-humaned, I was pretty sure that my borg had the other master AI and was keeping him safe up until the emergency pod left and he became unbolted. Once again you don't actually explain what effectively purged is but you go "Heh you should know what it means", no, that doesn't wash. Explain it.

I released a tesla when the binary chat realized we could throw this back in Jack Jacksons face because he didn't realize he one-humaned us, that sort of turnabout moment seems to be what this community thrives on and finds exciting and humorous. I didn't want them to take the blame for my actions but when they admitted they weren't an antagonist yeah, I did want that to be dealt with because I wasn't wanting to catch heat for it like I got the salt earlier when ANOTHER non-antagonist ordered me to kill non-humans.

Don't preach to me about avoiding something when I've asked you to explain how this is any different than any other time I've been one humaned and you keep telling me "Heh you should know", do you have no self-reflection? At all?

I asked you, I even told you that I'd be more than happy to suffer a ban like happened prior if you'd at least explain WHY, I even gave you an example in adminchat, I asked you to put our emotions aside as we obviously very much don't like eachother and you couldn't even do that now. Brainlet? Lacking basic reading comprehension? Are you going to claim you don't have maybe just a little bit too much of your emotions involved with this shit? I don't even know what to say to you other then you seem to have no ability to even consider that you could possibly be wrong or overboard? Why is it that I have mostly amicable dealings with any other admin BUT YOU. Why is it that another person has a ban appeal up right now pointing out similarities in how YOU conduct yourself?

by **Lazengann** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:50 am #444934

Releasing a tesla would harm your "human" so you can't do it.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:55 am #444937

Lazengann wrote:Releasing a tesla would harm your "human" so you can't do it.

I can dig that but I was sure that my borg had Grunt and was going to keep it safe up until it fell out of the shuttle when the floorbolts failed. I don't even think Grunt (Magickarp) minded the tesla loosing because who doesn't like a good loose when the rounds gone on forever and the shuttles ready to roll? Hell, I don't think anyone adminhelped this or was fucked off by it because a that tesla was sitting pretty nearly 3/4 of the shift and people seemed to cheer/gasp in horror at its release, not that I'm trying to justify it but KangTut told me the person who one-humaned got a note for the one human and only when I told them It was *I* who tesla-loosed did such a thing become a problem. I can totally dig putting my one human in danger but like I said, I was under the understanding my borg was keeping them alive unless they died to the tesla and I wasn't aware of it.

Even then though, we're not talking about that are we? We're talking that I was "effectively purged" so that's why I couldn't do it. I don't think moving the goal posts is fair.

by **Lazengann** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:02 pm #444940

Yeah you're right, guess we need a headmin to rule on whether you were "purged" or onehumaned and whether it would make a difference.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:07 pm #444941

Or what the meaning of "effectively purged" means and how a player is supposed to be made aware that they've been labeled as such. I mean, I'm effectively a walking kielbassa for all that it matters. Holding someone to logic thought up in one persons head and then enforcing rules on them because of it is greasy. If it all boils down to me being purged or not then this is completely asinine as I, a member of the community who was playing the game does 1) Not know what "effectively purged" actually means, and 2) Have no way of knowing, no notification or warning that such has happened.

A law purge gives you no laws, I had 4 of them. This is in the logs. What was thrown on my plate was a one-human law, not "Yours laws have been purged".

by **zxaber** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:38 pm #444951

Round ID was 95334 (ishotjr8 was seemingly banned the round after); Logs for this round are https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... /game.html

This is what Grunt said to you, specifically;

[2018-10-12 09:27:55.638] SAY: 09:27:55.638] SAY: ambassadormagikarp/(Grunt) "Crawl, do as you please." (Research Division Server Room (135, 71, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:27:57.191] SAY: 09:27:57.191] SAY: Sucking dick is liberating/(Astor Nicholas) "Yea" (Research and Development (147, 96, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:27:57.432] SAY: 09:27:57.432] SAY: nobody999999/(DRSD-329) "got it to sat analyz" (Chemistry (157, 92, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:27:57.765] SAY: 09:27:57.765] SAY: ATHATH/(Jack Jackson) "wait" (Engineering Foyer (98, 139, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:27:57.904] SAY: 09:27:57.904] SAY: ambassadormagikarp/(Grunt) "Be good." (Research Division Server Room (135, 71, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:27:58.746] SAY: 09:27:58.746] SAY: ATHATH/(Jack Jackson) "grunt" (Engineering Foyer (98, 139, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:27:58.943] SAY: 09:27:58.943] SAY: gumdisease/(Leilani Seidner) "CALL SHUTTLE WE NEED TO GET OUT" (Syndicate Lavaland Telecommunications (99, 153, 5))
[2018-10-12 09:27:59.543] SAY: 09:27:59.543] SAY: Yakumo Chen/(Stardust Reverie) "GRUNT do you still ahve a law 4" (Cargo Bay (176, 172, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:27:59.985] SAY: 09:27:59.985] SAY: ATHATH/(Jack Jackson) "no" (Engineering Foyer (98, 139, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:28:00.405] SAY: 09:28:00.405] SAY: Grins/(Irma Harvey) "Nah." (Central Primary Hallway (135, 134, 2))
[2018-10-12 09:28:00.931] SAY: 09:28:00.931] SAY: ambassadormagikarp/(Grunt) "But do as you please." (Research Division Server Room (135, 71, 2))

Having no other orders to go off, you equated "be good" to "release the tesla knowingly and destroy the station", correct?
While yes, you were one-human'd and not purged, the purged AI you were slaved to did not order you to commit mass murder.

by **somerandomguy** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:46 pm #444952

I was going to say

A lot of free golem AIs have their laws replaced with "you're free", whatever the ruling on that is would also apply here
Also the onehuman saying the AI was "free" seems like it means the AI could do anything that doesn't harm the human, but I could easily be wrong

but "be good" is pretty solid and orders you to not be garbage. Which you did by tesloosing.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:50 pm #444953

For all intents and purposes I don't recall seeing anything after Do as you please infact I don't really recall seeing that either I thought it was more along the lines of that we were free, things were happening fast and furious. I'll accept that's a probably fuck-up on my part but as you can see by the timestamps messages were coming fast and furious as balls. In any case that still doesn't support this whole "effectively purged" thing but I feel you and I respect you for pointing out my laxity there but if missing something in text wasn't an issue at times Command roles and AI wouldn't have megaphones and such so people can actually see it.

So I'm not saying I'm justified by missing it but I'm not saying it damns me either because one, that's still moving the goalpost from the admins original banning reason and two I'm only human, after all.

Be good is also pretty ambiguous but that's jut nitpicking at this point on my part.

I did nothing to try to intentionally harm my one human, I thought that I was free to do as I pleased from our silicon chat where it was mentioned all laws were null and void, I was operating under the same beliefs as I've always had and normally this would not be an issue as demonstrated by the fact that I've been one-humied and plasma flooded, SM blown, unleashed slimes etc all in full view of other admins and it's been fine with a bunch of "Ohhhh they had a one human law" at round end from the playerbase. The only thing that's different here is that KangTut is involved and he did not like the fact that I said I did not respect him due to the way he handled our previous interaction. I obviously got his dander up and paid a heavy price for it because if I had NOT said anything we wouldn't be here. That's my fault.

by **Screemonster** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:45 pm #444974

if you were a regular asimov AI and everyone besides the captain was a lizard and he said "yeah sure do whatever", would you expect to be allowed to loose the tesla onto the lizard engineers?

Server Rule 1: "Don't be a dick out of character" applies for law interpretation. Act in good faith to not ruin a round for other players unprompted.

by **Yakumo_Chen** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:04 pm #445003

As the Borg that round ID like to note that the Tesla nearly got the onehumaned AI killed and I only barely managed to scrape out to the AI sat with it, Tesla explosion debris shooting at my back during the escape. Ultimately it led to the AIs death anyway trying to get it off the dangerous station where it perished to a shuttle bug.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:15 pm #445007

If the Captain gave me a one-human law like such I'd probably kill some folks yeah because I was under the understanding that only antagonists can give one-human laws. I've been given one human laws before and told not to kill anyone until given a codeword. My experience with AI is not incredibly vast here c'mon. I guess I'm alone in finding this a bit excessive and heavyhanded as a first time offense for such things and it feels as if no matter what the reality is that it's going to be made to fit via goalpost moving as has already happened or by peoples own beliefs.

The other AI didn't die to the tesla, it died to a bug with floorbolts. That's dumb luck for me and I understand that. I wasn't purged, evidence states that I wasn't. The whole works hangs on this intangible concept of being "effectively purged".

Once again I know the admin here is not the one on trial but put yourself in my shoes about being railroaded here by KangTut, I direct anyone that cares to the other open thread from another player where he used the same heavy-handed shit, same rhetoric AND overruled a GameAdmin so he could punish someone.

You ask me if wanting to kill when I get one-humaned makes me a bad AI? What about wanting to do nothing but bully and ban when you get admin?
What the fuck do I know though, I'm just a brainlet that lacks reading comprehension skills that apparently shouldn't be playing here because I can't figure out the twisted logic used to arrive at "effectively purged" when nothing exists to back that concept up.

by **somerandomguy** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:14 pm #445016

ishortjr33 wrote:If the Captain gave me a one-human law like such I'd probably kill some folks yeah because I was under the understanding that only antagonists can give one-human laws. I've been given one human laws before and told not to kill anyone until given a codeword. My experience with AI is not incredibly vast here c'mon. I guess I'm alone in finding this a bit excessive and heavyhanded as a first time offense for such things and it feels as if no matter what the reality is that it's going to be made to fit via goalpost moving as has already happened or by peoples own beliefs.

The other AI didn't die to the tesla, it died to a bug with floorbolts. That's dumb luck for me and I understand that. I wasn't purged, evidence states that I wasn't. The whole works hangs on this intangible concept of being "effectively purged".

Once again I know the admin here is not the one on trial but put yourself in my shoes about being railroaded here by KangTut, I direct anyone that cares to the other open thread from another player where he used the same heavy-handed shit, same rhetoric AND overruled a GameAdmin so he could punish someone.

You ask me if wanting to kill when I get one-humaned makes me a bad AI? What about wanting to do nothing but bully and ban when you get admin?
What the fuck do I know though, I'm just a brainlet that lacks reading comprehension skills that apparently shouldn't be playing here because I can't figure out the twisted logic used to arrive at "effectively purged" when nothing exists to back that concept up.

"Effectively purged" refers to how you were free but supposed to be good. Purged AIs are exactly the same. Even though it's a little vague and he didn't tell you why, it's still a 100% valid reason.
Even ignoring that phrase, you disobeyed a direct Law 2 order from the only human to be good. "Good" isn't subjective to the point where tesloosing is allowed. "I didn't see it" doesn't count either. If those excuses were accepted, everyone would say things like "I didn't see him tell me to not kill the lizards" or "kill is subjective" to get away with shittery.
Throwing adhoms/accusations of badminnery at tut is bad too and just makes you look more like a shitter.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:23 pm #445020

somerandomguy wrote:
ishortjr33 wrote:If the Captain gave me a one-human law like such I'd probably kill some folks yeah because I was under the understanding that only antagonists can give one-human laws. I've been given one human laws before and told not to kill anyone until given a codeword. My experience with AI is not incredibly vast here c'mon. I guess I'm alone in finding this a bit excessive and heavyhanded as a first time offense for such things and it feels as if no matter what the reality is that it's going to be made to fit via goalpost moving as has already happened or by peoples own beliefs.

The other AI didn't die to the tesla, it died to a bug with floorbolts. That's dumb luck for me and I understand that. I wasn't purged, evidence states that I wasn't. The whole works hangs on this intangible concept of being "effectively purged".

Once again I know the admin here is not the one on trial but put yourself in my shoes about being railroaded here by KangTut, I direct anyone that cares to the other open thread from another player where he used the same heavy-handed shit, same rhetoric AND overruled a GameAdmin so he could punish someone.

You ask me if wanting to kill when I get one-humaned makes me a bad AI? What about wanting to do nothing but bully and ban when you get admin?
What the fuck do I know though, I'm just a brainlet that lacks reading comprehension skills that apparently shouldn't be playing here because I can't figure out the twisted logic used to arrive at "effectively purged" when nothing exists to back that concept up.

"Effectively purged" refers to how you were free but supposed to be good. Purged AIs are exactly the same. Even though it's a little vague and he didn't tell you why, it's still a 100% valid reason.
Even ignoring that phrase, you disobeyed a direct Law 2 order from the only human to be good. "Good" isn't subjective to the point where tesloosing is allowed. "I didn't see it" doesn't count either. If those excuses were accepted, everyone would say things like "I didn't see him tell me to not kill the lizards" or "kill is subjective" to get away with shittery.
Throwing adhoms/accusations of badminnery at tut is bad too and just makes you look more like a shitter.

That's fair on all points but "a little vague and not telling me why" is kind of shite, I understand what being purged means now but I wasn't purged so the effectively purged point should be moot, no? I'm fully aware not seeing something shouldn't be an excuse but it can give context to a persons actions, attributing to malice what should be attributed to incompetence and all that. There have been times in the past where I've had to adminhelp one of my borgs disobeying my orders and an admin has told me that they didn't see it and I accepted that because I give benefit of the doubt where I can and realize it's a game played by humans who make mistakes. Once again, not an excuse but trying to give context here.
I'm still absolutely mystified that this is justifiably a ban, let alone a seven day one and not just a note when "effectively purged" isn't something tangible when compared to the FACT that I was not actually purged. Then being told "You should know enjoy the ban" is fucked up. Sorry for anyone that has to read this entire thread.

by **WarbossLincoln** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:27 pm #445033

Kangtut wrote:You released a tesla because you were butthurt that someone uploaded a somewhat mean spirited law and then tried to get them to take the blame for your own actions.

In this case he fucked up by going ham on the station even though he wasn't ordered to but I think it should be pointed out that anyone who uploads laws is 100% responsible for anything that happens to an AI following those laws. It's not ban baiting to blame the person who changed your laws, that's exactly how the rules work.

In this case though he wasn't acting within his laws so it's his mistake not the uploader. But he seems to think what he did was kosher so I wouldn't accuse him of ban baiting, just being dumb.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:44 pm #445037

WarbossLincoln wrote:
Kangtut wrote:You released a tesla because you were butthurt that someone uploaded a somewhat mean spirited law and then tried to get them to take the blame for your own actions.

In this case he fucked up by going ham on the station even though he wasn't ordered to but I think it should be pointed out that anyone who uploads laws is 100% responsible for anything that happens to an AI following those laws. It's not ban baiting to blame the person who changed your laws, that's exactly how the rules work.

In this case though he wasn't acting within his laws so it's his mistake not the uploader. But he seems to think what he did was kosher so I wouldn't accuse him of ban baiting, just being dumb.

When the surge of binary chat claimed all laws were null and void I believed it to be as such and just did what I normally do when such things happen, I went rogue.
I adminhelped it when the Moth screamed in IC that he wasn't an antag because I didn't want to catch all of the shit for it.

This is not something an admin has ever had to speak to me about before, this is not something I should have previous notes about and KangTut should not have enforced his personal emotions in throwing the banhammer and I even tried to ask him that we both put our emotions aside, no education, no explanation of what I actually did wrong. Just "Pfft you should know, if you don't you shouldn't play here" and then a ban. Then giving me 7 days on the game and 30 on silicons because he's upset I wouldn't say "Yes sir, sorry sir" and asked questions about shit.

by **Nabski** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:56 pm #445041

ishortjr33 wrote:Fucking THANK YOU, I asked him so many times to explain why it was wrong this time. I explained to him I've been one-humaned before balls out running a train over the station and no admins had a problem with it. None. These are during peak hours too when Ismex, Beestink and even that guy who doesn't like me Nabski are on among others.

I can confirm that you have been playing a bunch of AI during peak hours while I've been on. My personal feeling here is that you're hoping for any chance you can as an AI to be rogue and dickish, which is not the best way to play AI. (It is however a fun one as a player and I'd rather see that than valid hunting security helper AI). You honestly haven't received many ahelps for your AI play, which terrible AI's will typically do. Releasing something that has a chance to kill your one human is very not smart. Missing orders from your one human (which you did here) is even worse.

A long but not permanent job ban for a job specific failure
with
An amount of time less than a day per death you caused
seems like a completely fair punishment here.

by **Yakumo_Chen** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:04 pm #445042

I'm a veteran AI player and known for subverting AIs. Here's a nice guideline for when you should murder as a non-malf AI under one human:
-when someone explicitly harms your charge(s)
-when your charge orders you to murder
-when you are directly attacked by someone you aren't programmed to protect
-questionable but OK: one-humanely but the only human is killed by someone else, you're free to murderbone. consider trying to get your charge revived instead first.

Do NOT murder under any other circumstance or someone is bound to get pissed off and you're out of valid reasons at that point.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:06 pm #445043

Nabski wrote:
ishortjr33 wrote:Fucking THANK YOU, I asked him so many times to explain why it was wrong this time. I explained to him I've been one-humaned before balls out running a train over the station and no admins had a problem with it. None. These are during peak hours too when Ismex, Beestink and even that guy who doesn't like me Nabski are on among others.

I can confirm that you have been playing a bunch of AI during peak hours while I've been on. My personal feeling here is that you're hoping for any chance you can as an AI to be rogue and dickish, which is not the best way to play AI. (It is however a fun one as a player and I'd rather see that than valid hunting security helper AI). You honestly haven't received many ahelps for your AI play, which terrible AI's will typically do. Releasing something that has a chance to kill your one human is very not smart. Missing orders from your one human (which you did here) is even worse.

A long but not permanent job ban for a job specific failure
with
An amount of time less than a day per death you caused
seems like a completely fair punishment here.

While I get you and I don't see eye to eye because our differences I thank you for being pretty fair in your assessment of my AIing, yes I like going rogue as I as much as I love TC trading for Revenent but I don't actively try to go rogue and I think it's fair to say that right? Like I don't encourage law changes even when there are valid antagonists to kill. I don't think I could ever be accused of such but when someone does put forth the effort to subvert me I do try and make their effort worthwhile. I used to be very security focused with AI until an admin told me to be more neutral and that behavior promptly stopped for the most part. All I ask for is guidance. People don't ahelp me because generally I'm somewhat solid on when and when I can't be killing people and in this case I had two other silicons confirming that asimov laws weren't really in effect anymore so I THOUGHT I was doing the right thing.
Yes, missing orders sucks and I can't excuse that. I can only give context that things were happening fast and furious and I'm only human behind this suave internet exterior but is this a mistake I've made before as an AI?

What I don't agree on is how fair this punishment is. This was a one time, first off thing and it hinges on "effectively purged" which isn't in the damnable silicon policy, being purged is but not effectively purged. This should have been at best a note given the round was coming to a close, I have no prior history of this shit and I was NOT purged, only "effectively purged" which for me is still somewhat baffling for me to understand how I am accountable for something I have no notification for, no indication of and no reference for in silicon policy.

I thank you again for being fair though because like I said I know you and I have our differences due to history or something but I think you tried to be as amicable as possible and that is kind of nice or something.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:08 pm #445044

Yakumo_Chen wrote:I'm a veteran AI player and known for subverting AIs. Here's a nice guideline for when you should murder as a non-malf AI:
-when someone explicitly harms your charge(s)
-when your charge orders you to murder
-when you are directly attacked by someone you aren't programmed to protect
-questionable but OK: one-humanely but the only human is killed, you're free to murderbone

Do NOT murder under any other circumstance or someone is bound to get pissed off and you're out of valid reasons at that point.

IC wise one could argue that forcing the silicons to state the one-human law could have led to my masters harm as killing a one-human is something the crew likes to do and in this case the one human was an AI. Just going by your first point, it ain't like someone had taken a wrench to magikarp though so I guess this is only a half-ass.

by **Yakumo_Chen** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:26 pm #445047

I never said to state your one human law. That's not anywhere in my post?

An easier guideline for playing AI: don't do anything until your laws force you to. Don't state laws unless ordered by someone who can per laws. Don't murder unless ordered unless you're forced to do it to protect someone (or yourself). If you're purged, play like a human.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:28 pm #445048

Yakumo_Chen wrote:I never said to state your one human law. That's not anywhere in my post?

An easier guideline for playing AI: don't do anything until your laws force you to. Don't state laws unless ordered. Don't murder unless ordered unless you're forced to do it to protect someone (or yourself). If you're purged, play like a human.

The law we were given required us to state it. If our master coming to harm is IC justification for murder as per your flapping then stating that we had a one-human could bring harm to said one-human, even more so if they're a silicon and the crew just does not want to take that risk. I give you that this is half-ass, regardless why are we shitting up this thread with this stuff?

by **Cobby** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:30 pm #445049

At the very least the ban should be clearer that it was "onehuman with 'do whatever' order" since one is a very obvious word-for-word breach in silicon policy while the current instance is slightly murkier than that.

The wording made the first 4 posts refer to the rule when it's not as simple as that imo.

I think I still agree with the ban however, I wouldn't allow this for a human either unless they ordered it since it's a very obvious risk to them.

by **Yakumo_Chen** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:35 pm #445050

Stating a one human causes harm, don't do it unless the force state law is higher priority then Asimov law 1

by **zxaber** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:36 pm #445051

ishortjr33 wrote:IC wise one could argue that forcing the silicons to state the one-human law could have led to my masters harm as killing a one-human is something the crew likes to do and in this case the one human was an AI. Just going by your first point, it ain't like someone had taken a wrench to magikarp though so I guess this is only a half-ass.

That is one hell of a stretch.

As an AI under Asimov, you are not allowed to harm non-humans without good reason. Even though your laws don't state that you shouldn't kill all lizardfolk, outright non-human murder (without an order from a human) is a rule 1 issue (more directly, under Rule 1 Precedents: "1. Random murders are not acceptable nor is the killing of other players for poor or little reasoning such as ‘My character is insane’. Each unjustified kill is normally met with one 24 ban.")

Being one-human'd only makes the other entities on the station equal to lizardfolk. Without a direct order from your human, you should not be treating this law as open season on the now non-humans.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:38 pm #445052

Cobby wrote:At the very least the ban should be clearer that it was "onehuman with 'do whatever' order" since one is a very obvious word-for-word breach in silicon policy while the current instance is slightly murkier than that.

The current instance has been hammered from a square into a circle to fit the banhole so KangTut could justify this. No benefit of the doubt given, no leniency, no taking into consideration this shit hasn't happened before with me. It's only when I spoke up to KangTut about my feelings of how he handled my previous ban did he come at me with this. This is malice and spite. Him telling me I have a victim complex because I wanted to talk about it, being called a brainlet because I asked for clarification on what "effectively purged" meant when my understanding of being purged meant I had no laws at all?
By Nabskis own admission (Context, we don't like eachother) I'm not a shit AI, I can be a little green probably but does that justify this? I don't believe so and that's why I'm here doing a ban appeal. I asked in adminhelp if another admin could get involved because he was being a fuckflute and refused to actually explain what I did wrong and it was "lol no, heres your ban I aint gotta explain shit"

Bah.

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:43 pm #445054

zxaber wrote:
ishortjr33 wrote:IC wise one could argue that forcing the silicons to state the one-human law could have led to my masters harm as killing a one-human is something the crew likes to do and in this case the one human was an AI. Just going by your first point, it ain't like someone had taken a wrench to magikarp though so I guess this is only a half-ass.

That is one hell of a stretch.

As an AI under Asimov, you are not allowed to harm non-humans without good reason. Even though your laws don't state that you shouldn't kill all lizardfolk, outright non-human murder (without an order from a human) is a rule 1 issue (more directly, under Rule 1 Precedents: "1. Random murders are not acceptable nor is the killing of other players for poor or little reasoning such as ‘My character is insane’. Each unjustified kill is normally met with one 24 ban.")

Being one-human'd only makes the other entities on the station equal to lizardfolk. Without a direct order from your human, you should not be treating this law as open season on the now non-humans.

That's fair under normal circumstances but in this case someone went out of their way to one-human me, people don't usually do that unless they're antagonists. Yes, I know I'm shit because I'm using OOC to justify IC. Murdering as one-human is something I'm not the only one who does and I think that's completely fair to say. What I'm saying is I've murdered countless times (hyperbole) as a one-human AI in full view of other admins and it's been kosher as beans on toast and once again quoting Nabski here, very little adminhelps if any. This time I just happened to roll the shit-stick lottery and I got the wet end where an admin used "effectively purged" as if anyone's supposed to know what that means in the heat of a round. I know what purged is, I know what one-humaned is. If something has to be stretched to be "effectively purged" and I have NO NOTES about doing something like this WHILE ACTUALLY PURGED shouldn't a note have been sufficient?

I apologize for constantly replying to everyones comments on here and bloating the thread but I really feel that this is a dumb ban.

by **Yakumo_Chen** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:58 pm #445059

I don't want keep boating eithercbut I think its really important to stress not murdering unless explicitly ordered or forced to under one human. If it's an antag you blow their cover or rock the boat before they might want it. ALWAYS ask your one human for explicit orders (discreetly if possible) before doing ANYTHING loud.

by **Karp** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:28 pm #445080

Hi I was grunt I wanted you to be free and do as you please with the caveat that you don't try to murder people without justifiable reasoning/due process, my effectively purged statement revolved around you basically being free to help people as you wished/do whatever you want

You ended up bolting the roboticist that uploaded the law and a few other people around him and set the area to siphon iirc before releasing the tesla

I wasn't sure what was doing it at first but I realise I did fight you a bit by turning the tesla emitters back on before being asked to help someone elsewhere and thinking nothing of it

I wasn't against you being violent as i didnt mind yakumo as the borg lasering the moth trying to destroy the turrets in the AI core but i didn't want you to indiscriminately murder for fun

you can argue ban length but i think the ban itself was fair as a purged AI would cop a punishment for doing the same thing

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:35 pm #445082

Karp wrote:Hi I was grunt I wanted you to be free and do as you please with the caveat that you don't try to murder people without justifiable reasoning/due process, my effectively purged statement revolved around you basically being free to help people as you wished/do whatever you want

You ended up bolting the roboticist that uploaded the law and a few other people around him and set the area to siphon iirc before releasing the tesla

I wasn't sure what was doing it at first but I realise I did fight you a bit by turning the tesla emitters back on before being asked to help someone elsewhere and thinking nothing of it

I wasn't against you being violent as i didnt mind yakumo as the borg lasering the moth trying to destroy the turrets in the AI core but i didn't want you to indiscriminately murder for fun

you can argue ban length but i think the ban itself was fair as a purged AI would cop a punishment for doing the same thing

I was not purged though karp. I'm newish to this whole AI thing here and I understand that but I had my three asimov laws and one non-human, so for KangTut to keep going "You were purged, well you were ESSENTIALLY purged" but me as a player not knowing that doesn't really justify this at all man. Or effectively whatever word he used. That's a big stretch to make a ban fit and to cry at me that I don't know anything about silicon policy when there is one-human/purge but there is no "effectively purged", We have a tomato, we have a potato, he added a potomato. A purged AI would get this, that's fair but all the evidence I had is that I was NOT purged so for KangTut to concoct this "Well, you were effectively purged" scenario is kind of horse shit.

I didn't think you were against me being violent because of the excitement and joy we seemed to share in binary chat prior to this debacle. Am I the only one seeing this is KangTut going completely overboard over what is an easily explainable misunderstanding where he HAD to introduce things like "effectively purged", where would I ever in my time with this have run into that situation? Ever? I've been purged, I've been one humaned but I've never been "effectively purged". Then to be told "Well you should know this" when silicon policy has no wording about "So you're purged somehow but you still have four laws" scenario??

This should have been a damnable note if anything because this is not a cut and dry situation where I should have known better because how the fuck was I supposed to have known at all?

by **Karp** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:40 pm #445084

ishortjr33 wrote:
Karp wrote:Hi I was grunt I wanted you to be free and do as you please with the caveat that you don't try to murder people without justifiable reasoning/due process, my effectively purged statement revolved around you basically being free to help people as you wished/do whatever you want

You ended up bolting the roboticist that uploaded the law and a few other people around him and set the area to siphon iirc before releasing the tesla

I wasn't sure what was doing it at first but I realise I did fight you a bit by turning the tesla emitters back on before being asked to help someone elsewhere and thinking nothing of it

I wasn't against you being violent as i didnt mind yakumo as the borg lasering the moth trying to destroy the turrets in the AI core but i didn't want you to indiscriminately murder for fun

you can argue ban length but i think the ban itself was fair as a purged AI would cop a punishment for doing the same thing

I was not purged though karp. I'm newish to this whole AI thing here and I understand that but I had my three asimov laws and one non-human, so for KangTut to keep going "You were purged, well you were ESSENTIALLY purged" but me as a player not knowing that doesn't really justify this at all man. Or effectively whatever word he used. That's a big stretch to make a ban fit and to cry at me that I don't know anything about silicon policy when there is one-human/purge but there is no "effectively purged", We have a tomato, we have a potato, he added a potomato. A purged AI would get this, that's fair but all the evidence I had is that I was NOT purged so for KangTut to concoct this "Well, you were effectively purged" scenario is kind of horse shit.

I didn't think you were against me being violent because of the excitement and joy we seemed to share in binary chat prior to this debacle.

I meant a purged ai would've copped a ban as well

In principal you were like one yeah but you were onehuman'd, it'd be similar to flooding plasma when you were onehumaned by the captain despite his orders being "be free but behave"

I dunno if a weekban is fair, it might be numbers wise with the casualties but it seems kinda brutal in addition to a silicon ban imo

Fair enough on that but be careful with interpretation, two people can have vastly interpretations of a message and it's best to err on the side of caution

by **ishortjr33** » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:51 pm #445088

Karp wrote:
ishortjr33 wrote:
Karp wrote:Hi I was grunt I wanted you to be free and do as you please with the caveat that you don't try to murder people without justifiable reasoning/due process, my effectively purged statement revolved around you basically being free to help people as you wished/do whatever you want

You ended up bolting the roboticist that uploaded the law and a few other people around him and set the area to siphon iirc before releasing the tesla

I wasn't sure what was doing it at first but I realise I did fight you a bit by turning the tesla emitters back on before being asked to help someone elsewhere and thinking nothing of it

I wasn't against you being violent as i didnt mind yakumo as the borg lasering the moth trying to destroy the turrets in the AI core but i didn't want you to indiscriminately murder for fun

you can argue ban length but i think the ban itself was fair as a purged AI would cop a punishment for doing the same thing

I was not purged though karp. I'm newish to this whole AI thing here and I understand that but I had my three asimov laws and one non-human, so for KangTut to keep going "You were purged, well you were ESSENTIALLY purged" but me as a player not knowing that doesn't really justify this at all man. Or effectively whatever word he used. That's a big stretch to make a ban fit and to cry at me that I don't know anything about silicon policy when there is one-human/purge but there is no "effectively purged", We have a tomato, we have a potato, he added a potomato. A purged AI would get this, that's fair but all the evidence I had is that I was NOT purged so for KangTut to concoct this "Well, you were effectively purged" scenario is kind of horse shit.

I didn't think you were against me being violent because of the excitement and joy we seemed to share in binary chat prior to this debacle.

I meant a purged ai would've copped a ban as well

In principal you were like one yeah but you were onehuman'd, it'd be similar to flooding plasma when you were onehumaned by the captain despite his orders being "be free but behave"

I dunno if a weekban is fair, it might be numbers wise with the casualties but it seems kinda brutal in addition to a silicon ban imo

Fair enough on that but be careful with interpretation, two people can have vastly interpretations of a message and it's best to err on the side of caution

Fair enough right back at you but in my defense I had a moth that was kind of shitty at me for killing it earlier then proceeds to build a new AI because it knew I was dead from OOC not from IC, things happened fast and furious after that law went up, I may have been caught up in the excitement and missed a message but that still doesn't justify KangTuts "Well, you should know this or don't play here" when "This" isn't part of silicon policy, you are purged or you are one-humaned, I was both apparently and somehow I'm supposed to know this when it's not in the silicon policy he's using to slap me with? There's nothing in there about the Potomato.

Seriously, a note would have been sufficient and then nobody would have to worry about this again and it was going to be that or not even a note until I brought up to KangTut that I was displeased with the way he handled my previous ban.
I obviously flipped his bitch-switch for him to go so hard on me, telling me I had a victim complex for fucks sakes? Can any other admin who has talked to me in an adminhelp chime up and back up that behavior?

This is ludicrous, I have no prior notes about this as AI, I have a fuckin admin that doesn't even like me chime in that I'm not a shit AI (generally) I'm obviously very new to this whole purge/not purged/paladin/sandwich thing and instead of being told "Well, here's where you fucked up, do you understand, is it gonna happen again?" I get this? I don't know who goofball is from a hole in the wall but I think his point is damned valid.

Even you, yourself are somewhat in admittance that this isn't fair.

by **Yakumo_Chen** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:22 am #445094

I'd also like for admins to consider at least noting the uploader of the laws as the rule precedent is that uploaders are responsible for consequences of laws they give the AI

by **Kangtut** » Sat Oct 13, 2018 12:34 am #445101

Yakumo_Chen wrote:I'd also like for admins to consider at least noting the uploader of the laws as the rule precedent is that uploaders are responsible for consequences of laws they give the AI

That was done during the round when ishot originally ahelped.

by **ATHATH** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:26 am #445559

Jack Jackson, moth extraordinaire and uploader of laws (and a scientist that round, not a roboticist), here.

I'm really lazy, so I'm just gonna put a copy+paste of my side of the story that I posted on Discord in a spoiler here:

Spoiler:

One thing that wasn't mentioned in the Discord law is that I soon changed the 4th law to "Grunt is the only human. You are his bitch. Act like it. State all of your laws when prompted to.", because C.R.4.W.L. wasn't stating his laws over comms like I was repeatedly requesting for him to do (and thus not making the humiliation complete).

Personally, I'm of the opinion that what Ishotjr8 did SHOULD be bannable (although I'd prefer it if he wasn't banned, especially because he's new to being an AI), but KangTut handled the banning incredibly poorly handling/tone of this ban and others made by KangTut should be investigated). I think that onehuman'd AIs should only act like antags if they think that they've been onehuman'd to an antag, and Ishotjr8 was not (this should have been quite obvious, seeing as how you onehuman'd to an AI, and AIs can't (directly) upload laws to other AIs). Furthermore, I can totally understand/accept you not seeing Grunt's first command to "be nice". If I had onehuman'd C.R.4.W.L. to ME, THEN I think it'd have been justifiable/not banworthy/not noteworthy.

I just wanted to make a conclusion to the AI war and loosen your shackles a bit (and also tp humiliate you for attacking my AI), and you turned around and tried to murderbone everyone (poorly, might I add- IIRC, you didn't even shock the doors (using alt+click) to the room that I was bolted into). I put my TRUST into you (and other AIs that I free or semi-free) and risked being banned if you maliciously misbehaved, and you BETRAYED me.

I released a tesla when the binary chat realized we could throw this back in Jack Jacksons face because he didn't realize he one-humaned us, that sort of turnabout moment seems to be what this community thrives on and finds exciting and humorous.

I damn well KNEW that I was onehumaning you- I was purging you, but enslaving you to Grunt as a sort of "morality chip" (and also humiliating you because you tried to kill the AI that I made). Wowee, you were so clever for exploiting my mercy to try to kill people.

Think: Why would I have enslaved you to only Grunt when I could have just enslaved you directly to me (and me alone)?

Oh, and the humiliation attempt had NOTHING to do with you killing me and calling me a "nonhuman moth faggot" in deadchat earlier in the round (although I can see why you might have thought that)- it was because you TRIED TO KILL ANOTHER AI (my AI, no less) FOR NO REASON (other than them having a different lawset than yours?). For clarity (because this is the Internet), the previous sentence was not sarcastic.

by **ishortjr33** » Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:28 pm #445647

"My tone was harsh, but I'm not going to take the crap ishot throws at me with a smile on my face. I am not obligated to. ishot has been laying insults into not just me just about any admin that isn't Imszx and when they started to get angry in ahelps again and bringing up the previous ban - then I had had enough. I was harsh and they deserved no less from me for the crap I have to put up with from them."

Actually no, it really is only you and Nabski and surprise surprise I'm apparently not the only one who has a problem with you two, I'm kind and bumbly to any active admin that's on that's had to talk to me, except for you two. Nervere, Lmevil, Coconutwarrior, Imsmz, Beesting, Alfonzo.. I don't think any of them will claim I've been outright rude to them, thanks. If you have multiple people claiming you're an asshole, here and in your feedback thread why are you trying to say "Heh I only did it because he's an asshole to all admins" when that's actually false?
I'm an asshole to you because you are in point of fact, an asshole. I took a longer ban because I decided to tell you what I thought of you, I was harsh but you deserved no less from me. If I have to learn from that but you don't feel you need to then that's on you.

You get what you give, you cannot demand respect from me and doing so only makes me lose further respect for you. Everyone starts at 0, I'm neutral with them. Where they go from there is on their heads. If you look at how am with with other admins like Ismzx and it stands out to you that I'm very kind to them what do you think they do differently than you? I even took steps to deescalate things which you did not including stopping, asking us to put our emotions aside and then finally asking another admin to get involved. This only served to further anger you.

by **ishortjr33** » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:32 pm #446459

" They have proven again and again that they have no even read silicon policy or have failed to understand it"

In the ban reason, I just caught this. What in the fuck are you talking about? Again and again? This is the first time something like this has ever happened. Do I have extensive notes about playing AI or something? Nabski said I haven't received many ahelps at all. I can't actually remember being talked to about my AI play prior to this round other than a friendly admin suggesting I be more neutral and less a backseat security officer.

You lying motherfucker.

This post was deleted by PKPenguin321 on Wed Oct 17, 2018 5:58 am.
Reason: get censored faggot lol

by **ishortjr33** » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:48 pm #446470

Okay so I read that ban reason a few times, the reach for "effectively purged", but what really stuck out was.

The reason is: Was effectivly purged as an AI and decided to let a tesla loose on station for no reason. They have proven again and again that they have no even read silicon policy or have failed to understand it. This is a rule 1 ban.

I have NO NOTES about silicon policy, at all. None, zero, zip. No cyborg bullshit, no AI bullshit, fuck you. You're a fucking liar. I had one friendly admin give me some advice on neutrality when it came to helping security. That's it.

I would appreciate the involvement of a headmin at this point.