[KingLouisXIV] Louis Cannon - bullshit ban

[Garrus]

ing

Post Content:
Byond account and character name: Garrus, Louis Cannon
Banning admin: KingLouisXIV
Ban reason and length: Detonating a BoH after warning a Phazon. 10080 minutes
Time ban was placed (including time zone): 12:45 Central USTZ
Your side of the story:
So science does an excellent job, and I am an engineer with X-Ray, and two bags of holding. I spend most of the round finding the little secret spots in the station and welding in. I even hit one of the jackpots from the slot machine. Life is good. I head down into maintenance near science, and see a Phazon mech. Mechs are usually assholes, so I step aside to let him pass. Instead he tries to wormhole me to -somewhere-. I dont know, but he opens a wormhole where I was standing at. Ok, I keep stepping away, backing off, and out of maintenance, and he fires a heavy laser into me, knocking me from green to red health in one hit. I yell "IM WARNING YOU", where earlier in the round I had made it clear I did not have a problem with using two BoHs to take out attackers, since there were obvious traitors on station. Sec? No I wouldnt do this to. But some random asshole with weapons or a mech? Yes.
The Phazon fires again, and either this is the shot that hits and the previous one missed, or this one misses. But I have no other way to fight the Phazon, and am about to die, so I trigger the BoHs. I then adminhelp it, stating quite frankly to KingLouisXIV that I am the one who detonated the BoHs, but for good reason, as I was being murdered.

Next round starts, I point out that the Phazon shares responsibility. I get told that the Phazon only got a warning, and that if he had killed me it would be fine as "I might get cloned". Which is bullshit because being cloned means being out of the round at this point since by the time you clone all of your clothes, ID, and gathered items are stolen by the thieving magpies we call a crew.

TL;DR:

Louis Cannon warns crew attacking for no reason will cause him to use the nuclear option.
Phazon fires cannon later for no reason (Cant remember if this shot hits or not, but one of the two do hit)
Louis Cannon warns mech to back the fuck off.
Phazon fires cannon again
BoHs detonated as Louis is about to die.
Why you think you should be unbanned:

I understand that BoH use is not to be done lightly. You don't do it for legit reasons like 'hurr but sec tased me' or 'but the assistant said something mean' But building combat mechs and shooting people is pretty bad too. As an engineer I had no other way to defend myself from a rampaging mech.

[Saegrimr]

What makes you think that potentially annihilating the entire station and its crew is a good idea to defend yourself against one person?

I just can't comprehend this at all.

[Garrus]

What makes anyone think its a good idea to just go around killing people? I might have only got hit with the laser once, but the Phazzon pilot lied. He fired twice. It wasn't just a 'misclick'. One more hit and I was dead. I tried backing away and getting away, and he was following. And he moves faster. It's mutually assured destruction, if I am going down then the Phazzon is going down with me.

[Saegrimr]

Two wrongs, here.
His punishment is completely separate from yours, and significantly LESS destructive to the entirety of the station.

You had no way to know if he was or wasn't an antag at the time, and its a non-issue what his antag status is in relation to you detonating a bag of holding on the station.

[Garrus]

Antag status doesn't matter one bit when somebody is lasering you. No, I did not know his antag status. But if we are going by baystation rules where 'can not engage somebody unless you have incontrovertible evidence that they are an antag" then he broke rules even worse by starting the fight. I was in my work area (engineers work in maintenance). I was attacked for being in my work area.

Also why is it ok now to go around trying to crit people, as long as they don't die? He hit me once and knocked me into red. He tried to kill me by firing more than once. I had no way of fighting him off except with the option I chose.

The closest I can find in the wiki is about mass bombing the station, which says you have to admin PM and ask if its ok to do to an antag. Seeing as I never got a response and you even stated you wouldn't have known about the BoH incident if I hadn't mentioned it in OOC, this doesn't seem very viable. And what course of action do you suggest for an engineer (no weapons) to try and fight a mech off with? Can't run because the Phazzon is faster once you are in red. You don't have access to lasers like security or heads of staff. Fire extinguishers bounce off.

[Saegrimr]

But if we are going by baystation rules where 'can not engage somebody unless you have incontrovertible evidence that they are an antag" then he broke rules even worse by starting the fight. I was in my work area (engineers work in maintenance). I was attacked for being in my work area.

The problem isn't that you retaliated, its the method you chose which put everybody else at risk and likely killed many of them. There's a reason suicide bombing in self defense is also not allowed, this is a leap beyond that.

Also why is it ok now to go around trying to crit people, as long as they don't die?

I never said this, nor implied this, and its still incorrect.

And what course of action do you suggest for an engineer (no weapons) to try and fight a mech off with?

Anything that doesn't involve you potentially killing multiple people and ripping the station apart to fend off one guy.

[Garrus]

To fend off one guy in a mech, that is rampaging. I agree that BoH is bad. I agreed in the OOC discussion that BoHing was bad. The entire argument was "Why does he get a free pass to kill people who can't retaliate simply because he is in a mech".

I also watched the singularity. It killed at most five people, several of which were braindead in the maintenance. The singularity ripped half of escape, went into chapel maintenance, then fucked off to space.

You might not have stated it's ok to go around critting people as long as they do not die. Fact is the Phazzon was doing this, was trying to do this to me and I had no idea if he would stop after critting me. Phazzon pilot got let off with just a warning. I got banned.

[Stickymayhem]

To fend off one guy in a mech, that is rampaging. I agree that BoH is bad. I agreed in the OOC discussion that BoHing was bad. The entire argument was "Why does he get a free pass to kill people who can't retaliate simply because he is in a mech".

I also watched the singularity. It killed at most five people, several of which were braindead in the maintenance. The singularity ripped half of escape, went into chapel maintenance, then fucked off to space.

You might not have stated it's ok to go around critting people as long as they do not die. Fact is the Phazzon was doing this, was trying to do this to me and I had no idea if he would stop after critting me. Phazzon pilot got let off with just a warning. I got banned.

Attacking one person isn't even slightly comparable to something that can basically delete the entire station. You entirely removed people from the round in order to fuck over one person who shot at you. When you get eaten by our lord singuloth you're gone for good, you would have been left cloneable or in crit. This length of time is entirely reasonable and you clearly need to think about avoiding escalation until you understand it. Station-ending devices such as bombs, gold slimes and Bags of holding can never be used in self-defence justifiably as a non-antag.

[Saegrimr]

I also watched the singularity. It killed at most five people, several of which were braindead in the maintenance. The singularity ripped half of escape, went into chapel maintenance, then fucked off to space.

Typically a one day ban per innocent person you kill, and the wave of destruction following easily made up that last two. Many more cut off from the escape shuttle or subsequently died from the vacuum created.

Is the problem here that you think your ban is bullshit or that you think someone else should get a larger punishment? Because that's what ban requests are for.

[Garrus]

Except, Stickymayhem, the Phazzon pilot is the one who escalated. Multiple times. Again, I walk into maintenance. I step out of his way, and he tries to send me into a wormhole. That's the first escalation. I then back away and to the maintenance entrance, and he fires his laser. That's the second escalation. I then back FURTHER out, running to get away, and he fires again, continuing to escalate to the point that the only way Im getting away is through a drastic action. I never escalated, I simply ended the conflict. So please don't try to say I was 'escalating' and pin everything on me.

To Saegrimr, you're right. Preferably I would like this entire situation to just be over. I was trying to deal with the situation IC from an IC perspective.

[KingLouisXIV]

What led me to make this ban (besides your insistence that it is not in the right) is this:

[10:05:52]ATTACK:Delaron Ereborn shot Louis Cannon(garrus) with The heavy laser
[10:05:54] ATTACK: Delaron Ereborn shot Louis Cannon with The heavy laser
[10:05:54] SAY: Louis Cannon/Garrus : IM WARNING YOu
[10:05:57] GAME: Garrus/(Louis Cannon) detonated a bag of holding

Literally three seconds between "Stop" and you clicking the bags together. A lousy 5 since he first had shot at you. The logs show that he last had fired a wormhole generator at 10:00, five minutes before this attack even occured.

Using the "nuclear option" when you are not an antagonist is not okay. You pretty much single-handedly caused a shuttle call, got more than a few people permanently taken out of the round. Getting retribution using a bomb or a BoH-singulo because you're going to die, or get arrested, or because Shoe Snatchin' Willy is snatchin' your shoes is not okay in any way, situation or form.

This ban was applied and it's going to stay applied because you fail to realize that the actions of another do not excuse your own. Furthermore, I was letting both of you off with a warning to begin with, until you failed to actually heed that warning and called yourself into the right.

Please use the week off to reconsider the notion that what you did was okay, realize you dicked a lot of people over and spoiled the round for the ~40-50 players that were online, and come back with a better understanding of our rules.

[Garrus]

So you lied in OOC when I said he shot me twice, and you called me out saying he only shot once, and so what Delaron did must have just been an accident?

Nice administration. Are you out of game friends with Mr. Delaron?

[Saegrimr]

Nice administration. Are you out of game friends with Mr. Delaron?

Just a friendly reminder. https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... =44#p17399
This isn't going to help your appeal in the least bit.

[KingLouisXIV]

I made a mistake reading the logs, and yeah that's on me.

Again, it doesn't make what you did okay.

[Garrus]

It's an honest question. Someone killing somebody for no reason, no provocation, and not an antag, warning.
Somebody detonating BoH that kills a few braindeads in maint, and the guy initiating, banned for 7 days.

I get what I did was wrong. I will not put two BoHs in each other again. I still think it's silly that somebody is not allowed to use all tools at their disposal to defend themselves. While I disagree suicide bombing/BoH bombing should never ever be used, I do agree that I should be banned -if- I had another method of defense, such as having my own ion cannon or mech or laser cannon. But if admin policy is no BoH ever, then fine.

But if I am going to be banned, then why does the pilot who started this whole mess get off without even a slap on the wrist?

And yes Louis, it is on you. You used the 'he only fired once' as reason why the guy attacking me should escape all punishment, and flat called me a liar in OOC.

[KingLouisXIV]

The reason he was warned was because he claimed it was an accident, and he was busy clearing out gold slime core'd mobs a minute or two prior to the incident. There was a reason for his laser cannon to be armed at the time, and he was using it responsibly both before and after your incident.

Want another kicker? It looks like you were just itching for a chance to put the bags together not three minutes prior to detonation, besides the fact that you had two to begin with.

[10:02:21]SAY: Louis Cannon/Garrus : listen listen. what if..what if I put a bag of holding
[10:02:26]SAY: Louis Cannon/Garrus : inside a bag of holding?
[10:02:30]SAY: Louis Cannon/Garrus : Infinite space!
[10:02:51]SAY: Louis Cannon/Garrus : I-I-I mean think of it

Want to rewind deeper?

[09:57:26]SAY: Louis Cannon/Garrus : IF ANYONE TRIES TO CATCH ME ILL DO IT
[09:57:40]SAY: Louis Cannon/Garrus : ILL BLOW US ALL UP
[09:58:13]SAY: Louis Cannon/Garrus : So fair warning. Just leave me alone, or Ill blow this entire station to kingdom-come

So your little spiel of

I do agree that I should be banned -if- I had another method of defense, such as having my own ion cannon or mech or laser cannon.

is a little blown out of the water if this is what you intended to do anyway. You were just waiting for a spark to set off your powder keg. For all I know at this point, the mech could have been trying to -stop you- because you were actively threatening to blow up the station.

[Garrus]

Actually I was threatening because I was sitting in that little secret room that has a slot machine and a bunch of coins in it, watching armed people with guns run around, while I hid in the locker. I had X-Ray at the time, and playing. I even hit the jackpot. Singularity ate my jackpot

And I was threatening to blow up the station if somebody tried to kill me. If I had intended to do this anyway, I would have just done it, not waited until I was lasered by a fucking cannon. Twice.

And it doesn't matter what he was doing with the cannon beforehand. I never disputed his right to have a Laser-armed Phazzon, just the fact that he was shooting me for absolutely no reason other than I was walking into maintenance.

Edit: Anyways, I agree I should not have argued with you about it, and should have taken the warning. I will bring up in policy discussion the fact that blowing yourself up is automatic ban even if you have reason (such as being killed by griefers/antags). But until there is a change in ruling, I won't do it again, so can I just have this lifted and we all just get off with a warning?

[whodaloo]

I was in the round the OP described, and I'd just like to say that the confirmed traitors he mentions are bullshit. The roundtype was extended, except for two admin spawned Flukes who only arrived on the station after the singulo was loose.

[Garrus]

There were people running around stripping the HoP and shit. I watched with X-Ray, and only didn't attack them or stop them because I was unarmed save for the two BoH I had, and a makeshift stun prod. The other person had an energy gun. So I stayed away and just reported on people who were breaking the laws.

[Nerolat]

There were people running around stripping the HoP and shit. I watched with X-Ray, and only didn't attack them or stop them because I was unarmed save for the two BoH I had, and a makeshift stun prod. The other person had an energy gun. So I stayed away and just reported on people who were breaking the laws.

If I remember correctly, I was the AI that round, Grot, or something like that. I am sure that this could only have happened two times:

1. When the captain and the entire command arrested HoP and demoted them, in medbay. There was no harm, and the captain was there, with them, so I am not sure if you really could think of that situation as a murder or hostile activity that needs stopping.
2. When the HoP escaped the brig, looted the armory and ran away into the maintenance. At this time, I reported several times, that HoP is hiding and running arround heavily armed in the maintenance after escaping the brig using announcement channels (request and communication consoles), so, I am not sure how could you miss those. Both times, HoP being stripped and looted was completely legit. Just my 2 cents, I cannot say anything more about this situation, since I wasn't directly involved any more, except I constantly reported to the crew about the singularity movement if we are talking about the same round, this probably needs confirming.

[Garrus]

Sounds like the same round. I did not know the HoP was arrested legitly, as I did not watch the radio the entire time. Part of the time I was busy with the slot machine, winning. I just know I saw someone dragging the HoP in maintenance, who was already heavily armed, strip the stunned HoS, and throw the body on a table. I was hiding in a locker with X-ray vision and Mesons on, watching. Later, there were roaming groups armed with stun batons and guns. Maybe they were looking for the HoP? Maybe they were killers. For all I knew a wizard had done summon guns and I was one of the unlucky few who had not been given a weapon, so I just wanted to continue playing my slot machine and not be killed. In any case, there were people acting suspicious as fuck, and when one came near with a stun baton out, I used the makeshift prod and knocked them down, taking their baton and putting it in the backpack.

If I had been some 'murderbonering asshole just looking for an excuse' then would I have not used the BoH there? I waited until it was truly a situation where I was going to die no matter what I did. That situation happened to be using the BoHs against a murderbonering Phazzon mech that then lied to admins apparently, since he said he only fired once.

Also if I was just going for 'my valids' why would I have adminhelped it to alert the admin "Hey, I just spawned that singularity using Bags of Holding, because the Phazzon was murdering me?' ?

[delaron]

Okay I was the Phazon pilot in question. I was moving through maintenance and looking for any additional fallout from the science team fiasco (yellow slime mobs). I come across some dude with what looks like 2 bag of holdings and just followed him out of maintenance (Not intentional following but rather I was heading to departures myself and he was running that way) He hides in a locker and I stop by the locker to turn off phasing mode to conserve power. I never shot him with a worm hole generator so his assertion to that is false. He jumps out of locker next to me and I go to click on him to see if he is in fact holding bags of holding. I click the edge of the screen for the first time to gain screen focus back and a shot is fired off in his direction. The second shot is the result of a misclick and drag to check him and the lasers go off because they were still selected and click drag for inventory breakdown doesn't work while in a mech. While I am typing an apology to him (Was not sure if either shot of the lasers had actually hit him) He yells about backing off or else. I nearly finish my apology message when all of a sudden there is a singularity spawns on him from the bag of holdings. So rather than send apology I can the text box and high tail it out of there.

His recall as to the order of events is also false as proven by the time stamps. I got off two shots (both on accident as detailed previously) before he "warns me to stop" I had stopped after his warning and was in the middle of an apology when he singulo bombed himself. I also dont like the fact he is not telling the truth in regard to claim I show a worm hole at him when in fact I never shot a worm hole at him.

After round I tell him sorry about the lasers but it was an absolute accident as you loose focus when clicking outside the main game screen. This is true as the first laser shot was just to get back screen focus and happened to fire in his direction from an edge of the screen click. The second shot was a quick misclick for trying to see what he had on him by click dragging to me (Which I now know doesn't work in mechs)

Overall his attitude was rather shitty when everyone explained that his actions were incorrect given not only the circumstance but the resulting aftermath.

I think the reason I had a slap on the wrist was because I was forthright and cooperative about the whole situation while Garrus was exceedingly difficult and argumentative. That and I continued to be helpful while in the Phazon for the entire round. Saving multiple people and killing more gold slime spawn mobs.

[KingLouisXIV]

I'm really sorry for the very late reply here. I've been dealing with a lot of shit in my household right now, and a lot of different drama between a lot of people.

Garrus, I've lifted your ban with the expectation that you don't suicide bomb in any way (BoH or actual bombs) in the future, unless you're an antag. I apologize that this didn't come earlier.