[Nervere] Vaina - Flimsy Note

[Vaina]

Byond account and character name: Vaina/Cancer Griffin
Banning admin: Nervere
Ban type (What are you banned from?): Note/Warning

Ban reason and length:
2018-11-14 23:43:46 | Bagil | Nervere
Warned - don't kill people just because someone flashed them and you think there's revolutionaries. The only reason this isn't a ban is because you immediately fixed your fuckup and cloned the person, so I opted for leniency.

Server you were playing when banned (Sybil or Bagil): Bagil
Your side of the story: Let's start from the beginning.

I'm in the HoP's office as captain, giving an implanted botanist her promotion to HoP--seeing as we didn't have one at the time. Out of nowhere, Scotty came rolling in through the HoP line, flashing two people as he had several others. By this point, I had come to the reasonable conclusion that it's revs, as would any captain with even the remotest sense of self-preservation. I acted accordingly and took care of the two flashees with what I had on hand: a gun.

From this point onward, I have two options:
1. I can use my disablers from the safety of a window to attempt pacifying both, thereby exposing myself once I reach the outside, and providing at least one of them with the opportunity to escape or even fight back--not the mention the possibility of other revs coming to their aid. (I had one ziptie)
2. I can laser both to death and clone them later, removing two potential threats, and freeing my focus to deal with interloping revs if there were any.

Now, where did I go wrong with this? It's simple. It wasn't revs. It just very well seemed like it. I hedged my bets on the justified and reasonable assumption that it was revs. It wouldn't have been the first time that I forewent random flashings, dismissing them as a prank, only for it to bite me in the ass. What I did wasn't inherently wrong. I direct myself and any reader to this thread, where I was given to understand that revs is, in fact, a team deathmatch mode (contrary to what Nervere says here). Of course, I couldn't have known if it was revs, traitor, or wizard.

But isn't that the point? Uncertainty has always been a core tenet of the game.

What happened afterward? I let them get cloned, like I originally intended, and once the dust had settled, I apologized to the victim(s) IC.

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 33&t=19073
Why you think you should be unbanned: Nothing that hasn't been explained already. It was IC, handled IC, and resolved IC. This note shouldn't exist.

[oranges]

you gambled and you lost, as per rule 10


Losing is part of the game.
Your character will frequently die, sometimes without even a possibility of avoiding it. Events will often be out of your control. No matter how good or prepared you are, sometimes you just lose.

Murdering people flashing others in the HoP line because you think it's Revs is a violation of rule 1, being a dick and rule 10, where you refuse to accept that sometimes, to make a better game for everyone you have to play suboptimally.

I hope the note remains so that we can deal with powergamers like yourself more harshly in the future.

[Vaina]

being a dick and rule 10, where you refuse to accept that sometimes, to make a better game for everyone you have to play suboptimally.

Nowhere does it state that you must bend over backwards so that others can have their antag round. It says to accept your death; that's it. How your reading comprehension led you to see anything else is beyond me.

I hope the note remains so that we can deal with powergamers like yourself more harshly in the future.

powergamers like yourself

Yikes. That's a lofty accusation. I wasn't aware using the bare minimum equipment provided in the captain's locker was powergaming.

If you knew the first thing about me, you'd know I'm remarkably unrobust.

[somerandomguy]

being a dick and rule 10, where you refuse to accept that sometimes, to make a better game for everyone you have to play suboptimally.

Nowhere does it state that you must bend over backwards so that others can have their antag round. It says to accept your death; that's it. How your reading comprehension led you to see anything else is beyond me.

I hope the note remains so that we can deal with powergamers like yourself more harshly in the future.

powergamers like yourself

Yikes. That's a lofty accusation. I wasn't aware using the bare minimum equipment provided in the captain's locker was powergaming.

If you knew the first thing about me, you'd know I'm remarkably unrobust.

He must have meant validhunters

[Vaina]

He must have meant validhunters

Oranges is smart enough to know the difference. Even if that were the case, I wouldn't release people from perma and spare non-harmful traitors as the warden or a regular basis.

Then again, it's stupid to expect others to know every little thing about you.

[Karp]

Precedent against this note in https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=9396

This was originally a policy thread by robustin that got removed to the hut, he was killed because he ran around with cult paraphernalia and complained about it and everyone ruled it was fine because he was pretending to be an antagonist and got treated as such

I dunno what you guys are smoking attacking vaina but the running trend is "act like an antag get treated like an antag"and pretending to be an antag allows security to treat you as such, vaina was kind enough to clone said fuckface upon realizing it was a joke, at best it was an IC situation and at worst the other party was straight up banbaiting and you fell for it

It sucks that an innocent person got killed for someone's joke but rule 10 exists explicitly for purposes of people crying about being murdered in a completley logical and legitimate way, e.g. they were converted by the antagonist who in this case was a nonantagonist being a shithead

Someone acting like a head revolutionary deserves to be treated as such and expecting the captain to run into 3-4 flashed people to cuff and drag away a potential head revolutionary is idiotic if not suicidal

What's next, we warn/ban security players for killing cultists because they accidentally/misguidedly kill a non cultist in a room full of cultists? Players aren't omniscient and they can't check a traitor panel until after the event occurs

[BeeSting12]

He didn't kill the flasher, he killed the people being flashed.

[subject217]

To clarify something here in plain language since multiple people have shitposted about this - this note is not about Vaina killing someone who flashed a bunch of people. It's about him killing the people that the other guy flashed, without them having acted like revs whatsoever. Being flashed is not acting like an antag.

Also as a side note - the HoPline has a mounted flasher. It's quite useful for situations like the one described in the OP where you need to deal with a bunch of people at once. Assuming they didn't have flash protection, which they wouldn't have had if they got flashed.

[Vaina]

To clarify something here in plain language since multiple people have shitposted about this - this note is not about Vaina killing someone who flashed a bunch of people. It's about him killing the people that the other guy flashed, without them having acted like revs whatsoever. Being flashed is not acting like an antag.

Because this argument has already been made, I'll repost this:

It sucks that an innocent person got killed for someone's joke but rule 10 exists explicitly for purposes of people crying about being murdered in a completley logical and legitimate way, e.g. they were converted by the antagonist who in this case was a nonantagonist being a shithead

Someone acting like a head revolutionary deserves to be treated as such and expecting the captain to run into 3-4 flashed people to cuff and drag away a potential head revolutionary is idiotic if not suicidal

I did what I had to at the moment. I wasn't going to let two potential revs slip loose. And again, they were cloned after the situation was confirmed. What difference does it make if they spend four to five minutes in a cloning pod to the equal amount of time they would be wasting in security getting implanted? It's negligible.

You don't screw with the possibility of revs as the captain.

Also as a side note - the HoPline has a mounted flasher. It's quite useful for situations like the one described in the OP where you need to deal with a bunch of people at once. Assuming they didn't have flash protection, which they wouldn't have had if they got flashed.

Yes, that would incapacitate them like I did. And... then what? We're back to square one. I already delineated the two outcomes of this in the OP.

[Steelpoint]

The main question here is that if a non-antagonist, who is acting like one, "converts" people and those people subsequently get killed or otherwise incarcerated for an extended period as a result of the original actions of the fake antagonist. Would the Captain/Officers who did this be liable for action under the rules

Clearly, under the rules, if you act like a antag you open yourself to be treated as one, but those who were flashed did nothing to act antagonistic. The question thus becomes does the actions of the Captain in executing the suspected, "recently converted", innocents warrant administrative action?

[WarbossLincoln]

The main question here is that if a non-antagonist, who is acting like one, "converts" people and those people subsequently get killed or otherwise incarcerated for an extended period as a result of the original actions of the fake antagonist. Would the Captain/Officers who did this be liable for action under the rules

Clearly, under the rules, if you act like a antag you open yourself to be treated as one, but those who were flashed did nothing to act antagonistic. The question thus becomes does the actions of the Captain in executing the suspected, "recently converted", innocents warrant administrative action?

I would kind of think it would be treated like an AI killing innocent non-humans on the orders of a non antag. If you fake conversion antag meme someone and that person ends up dead because of it wouldn't the flasher be responsible?

Edit: though I realize this would be a terrible precedent to set in the rules because then sec/captain would murder anyone who flashes anyone claiming "lol revs" and the flasher could get OOC consequences, even if they aren't trying to pretend to be a rev head and just flashed like 1 guy.

[Vaina]

If you fake conversion antag meme someone and that person ends up dead because of it wouldn't the flasher be responsible?

Very much.

Edit: though I realize this would be a terrible precedent to set in the rules because then sec/captain would murder anyone who flashes anyone claiming "lol revs" and the flasher could get OOC consequences, even if they aren't trying to pretend to be a rev head and just flashed like 1 guy.

Context is important here. The events unfolded just minutes into the round, where it would make sense for people to rush convert. Had this happened any other time (such as late-game), there would have been more benefit of the doubt,

[Cobby]

The main question here is that if a non-antagonist, who is acting like one, "converts" people and those people subsequently get killed or otherwise incarcerated for an extended period as a result of the original actions of the fake antagonist. Would the Captain/Officers who did this be liable for action under the rules

Yes if those individuals did not act like an antagonist and you cannot confirm the person who is acting like a conversion antag is an actual conversion antag.

[Vaina]

Yes if those individuals did not act like an antagonist and you cannot confirm the person who is acting like a conversion antag is an actual conversion antag.

So let them escape to potentially snowball and perpetuate more vivas.

I seriously hope this way of thinking is in the minority.

[Dax Dupont]

Yes if those individuals did not act like an antagonist and you cannot confirm the person who is acting like a conversion antag is an actual conversion antag.

So let them escape to potentially snowball and perpetuate more vivas.

I seriously hope this way of thinking is in the minority.

Only head revs can make more revolutionaries.

[Vaina]

Yes if those individuals did not act like an antagonist and you cannot confirm the person who is acting like a conversion antag is an actual conversion antag.

So let them escape to potentially snowball and perpetuate more vivas.

I seriously hope this way of thinking is in the minority.

Only head revs can make more revolutionaries.

They can also make more heads.

Revs also kill. Regardless of heads.

[subject217]

this thread is filled with peanut posting so i'm gonna slap a lock on it until nervere gets around to it

[Nervere]

Attack logs from this round: https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/bas ... attack.txt

You are correct in saying that admins are typically hands-off during revolution rounds. This is mostly due to the destructive nature of the gamemode - heads of staff sometimes have to make quick decisions to defend themselves when revolutionaries begin to swarm them and their co-workers. That's the nature of the mode. Your case is different, though, and it's unreasonable enough that I decided to intervene.
Let's look over the relevant attack logs. These logs are from the link above. I've snipped irrelevant lines that do not pertain to this scenario.

Spoiler:

[2018-11-14 23:22:35.384] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:35.457] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Superfun2/(Caitlyn Amyx) with [laser] (NEWHP: 80) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
-1 line snip, irrelevant virologist stuff-
[2018-11-14 23:22:35.835] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:35.904] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Superfun2/(Caitlyn Amyx) with [laser] (NEWHP: 60) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
-1 line snip, irrelevant virologist stuff-
[2018-11-14 23:22:36.454] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:36.510] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Superfun2/(Caitlyn Amyx) with [laser] (NEWHP: 40) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
-1 line snip, irrelevant virologist stuff-
[2018-11-14 23:22:36.945] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:36.993] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Slein/(Cain Wyllt) with [laser] (NEWHP: 80) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:37.593] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:37.683] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Slein/(Cain Wyllt) with [laser] (NEWHP: 60) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
-1 line snip, irrelevant virologist stuff-
[2018-11-14 23:22:38.207] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:38.265] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Slein/(Cain Wyllt) with [laser] (NEWHP: 40) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:38.700] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:38.778] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Slein/(Cain Wyllt) with [laser] (NEWHP: 20) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
-1 line snip, irrelevant virologist stuff-
[2018-11-14 23:22:39.378] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:39.454] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Slein/(Cain Wyllt) with [laser] (NEWHP: 0) (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
[2018-11-14 23:22:39.919] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [floor] with [laser] from Head of Personnel's Office (Head of Personnel's Office (97, 131, 2))
-2 line snip, irrelevant virologist stuff-
-1 line snip, some guy throwing a stool not near where this happened-
[2018-11-14 23:22:44.333] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has fired at [station intercom] with [laser] from Command Hallway (Command Hallway (92, 127, 2))
-1 line snip, irrelevant medbay stuff-
[2018-11-14 23:22:44.438] ATTACK: Vaina/(Cancer Griffin) has shot Superfun2/(Caitlyn Amyx) with [laser] (NEWHP: 20) (Command Hallway (92, 127, 2))

You swiftly killed two people whose only crime was being flashed by someone else earlier in the round. I can understand your apprehensiveness towards these people, after all you were just being diligent about revolutionaries on the station. However, you had non-lethal means at-hand to subdue these two people, and chose not to pursue them. Namely, the flasher located in the HoP line, your energy gun, or perhaps even your telebaton.
This would be a different story if you had, for instance, confirmed the presence of revolutionaries, either through the deconversion of a revolutionary or through confirming the presence of a revhead.

This wasn't the case, though - what happened was that you quickly gunned down two people unconfirmed to be revolutionaries, who weren't even revolutionaries, because they were flashed, in place of a more reasonable and non-lethal alternative. This isn't acceptable behavior, and the note reflects that well. The note also does not misrepresent the situation.
I see no reason to alter or remove the note, so I am denying this appeal.