[Imsxz] Snake Plissken - Plasma Flooding cult

[Zaffinomlb]

Byond account: Zaffinomlb

IC name: Snake Plissken

Ban Type: Perma

Ban reason: As the captain during a cult round, had the AI one-humaned and ordered it to plasma flood. Justified it due to security getting plasma fired by a cultist. Cult was most entirely dead at the point he ordered it, killed by the functioning security team. Cult never even reached the blood halo stage.

Server Time: 2019-04-11 10:10:34 | Bagil

My POV: For all of the early round I was in my office, then Scruffy said there were cultist in port bow maint, so I went to look and see if that was indeed the case. Never saw cultist base at that point, but I did encounter something to the tune of 6-8 people who were actively being hostile to me(syringe guns and red hands) and so I fled. I telebatoned one and ran off with them, the one turned out to be scruffy, and so we went to the brig where at this point an officer had detained a cultist who's hand was primed to stun. Spend about 5 or more mins in the brig waiting for the chaplain who never came. At this time we had detained two cultist and we had 8+/- sec personnel in the brig when an atmos tech or a person in their hardsuit massively firebombed and destroyed the brig murdering all of said 8+/- sec officers within. I was able to escape albeit on fire and almost dead via hand teleporter whilst also retrieving the wardens body, and cloned him. At this point and time comms also were down and frankly I was panicking, I didn't know how badly things were snowballing, and at that point in time in my mindset it seemed to be quite bad. I am normally on sybil which is lower pop so I more or less assume all of my sec officers were dead. Little did I know I still had one officer "Enward Jim" who as I would find out later self proclaimed to have killed 7 cult single handedly, as to the validity of that statement I will have to take their word. However I did not know this at the time, and went to the AI sat to change the law set. I am not every wise or smart when it comes to law sets, and I didn't know who could and couldn't be trusted. It is also my understanding (I don't play AI) that they don't meta wise know what a "cultist" is and cant also see mind-shield implants. However I could be wrong in this, but as previously stated, I do not play AI nor know much of the AI meta. With that in mind I figured the easiest thing to do was to just one human it and tell it to prevent the antags via my direction.
The following is a conversion between the AI and myself after the law set change.

Snake Plissken says, "Ai"

Snake Plissken says, "Its too late"

Snake Plissken says, "Flood it"

Snake Plissken says, "I dont know"

Snake Plissken asks, "Should we flood it?"

D.O.O.T states, "if you wish"

Snake Plissken says, "I just"

Snake Plissken says, "I am not sure"

Snake Plissken says, "But sec is lost"

D.O.O.T states, "Beggiing pump"

D.O.O.T states, "god speed"

At which point they left the holopad as aforementioned comms were down.

At this point its when I returned to the suspected cult base that was called out earlier in the shift at which point I found Officer "Enward Jim" as he was getting done killing cultist. We chatted and at that point was when he told me how many cultist he had stopped and at which point I went to atmos to stop the flooding. Luckly a non cult atmos tech had already cut off the distropump so it was already stopped. The atmos tech was reasonably mad at me and told me I was stupid and that If I wanted to flood the station I would have to kill him to do it, I told him "so be it." I left him as he was because at this point I no longer had any desire to flood the station as the situation was becoming more clear, and we had seemed to have had the cult contained. At which point the shuttle was 2 mins out or so and I told "Enward Jim" that we need to head to the shuttle to leave. So we did and the crew boarded and we left.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Frankly I think if you empathize with my situation and frame of mind within context to the whole story as it was unfolding you will understand that while rash, coming from the traumatic incident of the brig fire where I saw what seemed to be all of my sec force die. I had no comms to communicate, and at this point the lightning base attack on the brig made me think the cult was far more pervasive and organized then they actually were. I honestly thought they were already mass converting crew based on crew behavior I observed when I went to clone the warden. That was my mindset when ordering it, albeit unsure, I knew I would have time to stop it if needed. Which is why I went to check out the cult base to see if it was still that bad. It was more of a fail safe and not a "lol ya kill everyone kek" move. To which after finding that the cult was more or less stopped I went to turn said fail safe off. Some people might not agree and I understand that, and I will admit it is rather loose cannon IF you are looking at it from the POV of an aghost. However that being said I wasn't, and working with the fact that I had I made a call. When presented with facts that proved my call no longer viable and more detrimental I went to make sure it was stopped. No flooding ever happened, and when presented with proof it wasnt needed I corrected the situation to make sure it didnt happen.

Please don't tl;dr it,
Thank you for your time.

[imsxz]

Hi. Here's some basic logic and reasoning behind how I came to the conclusion that this was way too reckless for a player as experienced as you:

-Plasma flooding as non-antag could maybe be justified if the station is >50% antag
-Cult gets red eyes at like 20% of the crew converted, blood red halos at like 40% of the crew converted
-I'm not even sure the cult ever got to red eyes and they surely didn't get halos
-Going nuclear before putting basic thought into your actions is very bad
-The only cultists that were alive at the time were a guy stuck in a straight jacket and a guy that had no arms and was gagged, cult presence was effectively nothing (not that you could have known that much, but it should have been reflected by the lack of cult activity going on)

If ordering AI to plasma flood was an impulsive reaction, that tells me enough. If you thought logically before deciding that plasma flooding was the right course of action, that also tells me enough. I expect much more from someone that's been playing the game twice as long as I have. I took this as the last straw of your good will, there's not much improvement in your behavior going off of your notes. Again, you may appeal this if you get another server to vouch that you're a good boy some time later.

edit: Of course headmins may still overrule if they believe I am in error.

[imsxz]

I apologize for retroactively saving my thread from serial peanut posters, the thread is unlocked again. I was trained in the past to lock threads when I've seen all I need and just waiting for head admins to decide if they wanna overturn my decision.

The reason I chose permanent ban is because this is ban #24 for you, by now if you wanted to better yourself we'd have seen vast improvements. Regardless of how recent the previous ban was, your bans/note history is pretty consistent during the times you actually connected, racking up a score of over 20 bans and 50 notes.

I apologize for not making it clearer, but this was intended to be a rule 0 permanent ban. I should have included that this was a sort of nail in the coffin rather than the plasma flood situation itself being the important part. Sorry if that was in any way misleading.

[Zaffinomlb]

The problem is here that I was banned for a "nail" that never materialized. Rather an excuse taken to remove an undesirable to which you admit. If that be the case then the nail in and of itself being called into question is central to the case of if said ban should stand or not.

I reiterate from an AGhost POV not from my POV the situation was vastly different. However from MY POV from what had happened to me within the station leading up to me heading to change said laws, lead me to be under the impression that the station was HEAVILY likely to have been overwhelmingly cultist. This was based on the high volume of cultist witnessed near to the original base, to which I did witness personally, and because of what seemed to be a highly organized and concerted attack on Security.

• As to the fact that the cult was mostly removed by this point (to which I argue at the point in which I ordered it was not the case yet) was unknown to me because comms and PDA were down What was known was the aforementioned information.
• Comms were down, PDA was down, Sec was dead. "Functional Sec Force" Is disingenuous at best, lest you count 1 Sec officers being outstandingly robust to which is normally not to be counted on.
• You can also tell via the chat logs with the AI that I was not 100% sure that a flood is what needed to happen or not. Knowing I had (or what I thought I knew) no sec force (baring literally 1 officer who at the time KILLED all the cultist in the cult base) investigated to see if said course of action would be for the best.
• No Flood even happened because, instead of waiting for the flood, I went to the cult base's suspected location to see if what I reasonably asserted (given the information I had at hand) was accurate.
• When finding out that said assertion was not the case, and armed with NEW information about the disposition of the cult I made a strong and swift effort to halt it altogether.

You still are failing to rationally empathize with a perspective other than your own, and your perspective is made bias simply because you were privy to information that I was not. More over I might have been "playing the game twice as long" as you have, but I would wager that my total hours are dwarfed by thousands compared to yours. I play casually, I take long breaks due to new changes being refreshing, and this also alters you perspective as well.

If I was truly acting in bad faith I would have made sure the Flood was carried out to it requiem. This was not the case. When presented with information that ran counter to what was my understanding of the situation, I made a course correction well in advance prior to ever being contacted by you.

In summation if my only crime is not being fully aware of the situation in a total communication black out where in 90% or more of my sec force was gone, and I acted illogically to your standards then so be it.
However I do protest being banned when my actions were not in bad faith, to which you did not contest, but being for your biased opinion of my "impulsive reaction".

Might I also rebuke the argument over notes where in a sizable amount of said bans were overturned, but notes never removed. Tokens in the amount of at least 3, of an innocuous nature, or notes made in jest by admins. One coming to mind where I OOC called an admin a nerd(jokingly) and he banned me for 1 sec with text of "Why u bully". This also seems like another disingenuous statement, be that intentional or not, bordering on malfeasant slander. A claim I do not wish to level.

[imsxz]

The flood did materialize, the only reason I even took notice of the situation was after I had watched plasma pour out of a vent and a man burn to death due to it. where I then went to investigate.

I try to put myself in the position of others and try to rationalize how they might be interpreting a situation during places like this (i.e. a new player might think someone shooting him with a laser tag gun is a traitor murdering them, I've had to deal with situations like that in the past, a more experienced player would have a very tough time convincing me). I see you out and about chasing antagonists as captain/security with frequency, so I assume that you're at least moderately aware of how to gauge a situation and identify threats. Cult rounds are pretty obvious when the cult gets a strong foothold, generally you'll be dealing with several constructs and the cult will be brazen enough to go into the halls with full gear/maybe sec guns, blood red halo over their head or blood red eyes. Blood red halo would've been enough of a reason for me to waive the situation.

Forget the plasma flood entirely for a moment. You one-humaned the AI at some point in the round, which is already extremely reckless and risky for a non-antagonist to upload for hopefully obvious reasons, my attention wasn't drawn to it at the time but I might have even taken action on that alone at the time it was uploaded. I know you know for a fact there are far better alternatives than that, I can't imagine the choice you made could have been done in good faith without being criminally reckless.

Regardless, even when people upload laws in good faith, the uploader is generally held responsible if the AI was following the laws given with a sensible interpretation. You're being held responsible for your recklessness in this situation. If for whatever reason you'd want to onehuman the AI you should have a plan to ensure it doesn't get multiple innocent people killed.

I took a glance over your bans page, a whopping 1 of them is a meme ban. Most of the unbans I saw were either permanent or really lengthy bans that were removed sometime a few months later, which doesnt really tell me that it was "overturned", I saw 1 appearance ban that was removed the same day it was placed though. The other 20 were all "expired" which means they went their full duration.

I see 1 antag token note and 1 Nabski Token note, 0 positive notes at a glance. The other 50 are notes of every color. Metagrudging, metacomms, killbaiting, banbaiting, self antagging, overescalation, shitload of greytiding/stealing cap ID notes, random arresting, etc. I can pull specific notes for each of those listings if you really think I'm trying to slander.

Rule 0:

Enforcement of these rules is at the discretion of admins.
Admins are fully accountable for any consequences should they invoke this rule. Admins are also allowed to intervene in rounds when it is in the best interest of the playerbase.

I firmly believe my action was in the best interest for the community, and rest my case.

The rest of my replies will be at requests to cite evidence for my claims.

[Zaffinomlb]

Metagrudging, metacomms, killbaiting, banbaiting.

Cite these please.

And Cite the death from the logs.

If the metagrudging is the one I think it is, it is because of someone else who had constantly initiated conflict with me until he was told to stop, and notes were made in both of our logs.

Metacomms to the best of my memory have never done, so citation heavily needed.

The scope of these do span 6 years, I also rebuke the permanent claim because this is a first. Cite please.

If you wish to talk about the long term ghost roles ban I can also tell you about that one to which I felt was not truly warranted, but never really wished to officially contest.

[imsxz]

metacom (ckey left out for his privacy, if you insist im making it up i can give you the full image its just not something everyone needs to see)

Spoiler:

metagrudge

Spoiler:

banbaiting

Spoiler:

killbaiting

Spoiler:

[imsxz]

I don't really think you're getting my point. Ever since 2013, you've been a problematic player consistently and have shown little to no signs of improvement. I decided now on ban #30 or whatever that you've run out of second chances on /tg/.

[WarbossLincoln]

I remember this round. I was an assistant fooling around with the maintenance botany. The only cult activity I saw was a cult base with like 10 beheaded bodies in it, from a sec raid. It seemed completely under control. Didn't see anything bad in the main halls. I don't think I ever saw halos, constructs, or even red eyes the whole round. I was even like 10 tiles away from the only cult base in a secluded maintenance area and never got attacked or converted. A cursory glance around the station would show that mass murder was definitely not justified.

Why would you one human the AI as a non-antag? There are a ton of ways you can weaponize the AI against antagonists that aren't nearly as dangerous. Even a "Snake Plissken may designate crewmen as nonhuman" is way less dangerous because you have control over it. With a one human law the AI is essentially an antag now and if you die it will probably genocide the station for causing your death.

"Cultists are not human"
"Security and Heads of staff may designate people as non human"
Even a Purge is a better idea than one human-ing it. A Purged AI still has to follow escalation and common sense. A purged AI would have to have a very good reason to flood plasma. Hell they would be held to the same standard as you the HOS were held that led to this ban.

[Hulkamania]

We're going to be upholding this ban.

I've said it before, but I shall say it again: The inciting incident for the ban itself is not all that goes into things. Admins always take note history into account and use that as a factor in determining punishment. Although you may not have actually started a plasma flood of any kind the intent definitely seems to be there and that's what Imsxz acted on. Nothing about the ban was handled improperly on their end, and the determination they came to in deciding punishment is valid. They have provided adequate reasoning from old notes to justify a ban of this sentence and thus it will stay where it is.