[Shirbu] Zybwivcz - Banned for antaging as an antag

[Zybwivcz]

BYOND Account: Zybwivcz
Character Name: Leila Sauter/a morph
Ban Type: Server
Ban Length: 7 days
Ban Reason: Elected to scout out the location of the gluttony ruin prior to taking a mining ghost role, then made a beeline there directly from the ghost role spawner. Then immediately went to the station. This is pretty high level metagaming. Don't do that
Round ID: 133797
Your side of the story: Suicided at the start of the round, came back a while later and grabbed the lavaland hermit role as it was still open and it was the most interesting one available. Grabbed my hermit gear and headed south through the channels some miner had dug. Wound up hitting the gluttony ruins before anything else interesting or lethal. Grabbed the syringe since it was still there, headed to the station and injected it. When I got there I noticed yelling about the MALF AI so I moseyed on over to the satellite and ate it. Also killed one or two people who ran into me.

Morphs are antags. They eat stuff, including machinery. Which obviously includes the AI. I didn't use a ghost role to get 'revenge' against anyone because I hadn't really participated in the round until then. I didn't become the morph to kill the AI because I didn't know it was MALF until I was on the station. I didn't "beeline" to the ruins, I headed south from the hermit's tent because that was the way the tunnels left by miners lead. I didn't dig anything myself. I knew the gluttony ruins were somewhere out there along with the diamond mirror room and the alien ship a couple other ruins because I briefly checked out the area surrounding the hermit's place before spawning so I didn't spend the whole round tunneling through solid rock into the map edge, that's obviously not 'metagaming'. The morph "immediately" going to the station isn't metagaming. It's what a morph is for. There is nothing for a morph to do on lavaland other than die to an ash storm. The morph wiki pages states the purpose of the role is to "Kill and eat people".

I didn't have a chance to talk to the banning admin about any of this, no admin messaged me and I was on until the end of the round. There were one or two people whining loudly in deadchat constantly, at least one of whom was a victim of the morph. Since they were using the exact same choice of word("beelining") that the admin ban reason uses I can assume that they started ahelping the next round or got on discord and the admin just listened to them and applied a week-long ban without even attempting to get my side of the story. Which is pretty simple: knowing that certain ruins exist on lavaland is not "metagaming", neither is using the morph role to do what the morph role is meant to do, and "I ded plz ban" isn't a good ban reason.

[deedubya]

I briefly checked out the area surrounding the hermit's place before spawning so I didn't spend the whole round tunneling through solid rock into the map edge, that's obviously not 'metagaming'.

Literally the textbook definition of metagaming.

Metagaming is a term used in role-playing games, which describes a player's use of real-life knowledge concerning the state of the game to determine their character's actions, when said character has no relevant knowledge or awareness under the circumstances. This can refer to plot information in the game such as secrets or events occurring away from the character, as well as facets of the game's mechanics such as abstract statistics or the precise limits of abilities. Metagaming is an example of "breaking character", as the character is making decisions based on information they couldn't know and thus would not make in reality.

[Zybwivcz]

Literally the textbook definition of metagaming.

No that's something you got off Wikipedia. It's so wildly over broad it covers pretty much anything done by anybody who isn't playing their very first round.

Here's the relevant section from the rules:

I.e.. metagaming. This especially refers to communication between players outside of the game via things like Skype, known as metacomms. Characters are otherwise allowed to know everything about ingame mechanics or antagonists, as well as keep persistent friendships or relationships with other characters when not for the purpose of unfair advantage by teaming up together for little IC reason.

I didn't map out the route from the spawn to the ruin, I headed south because that's where the miners had dug tunnels coming from and 'I went in the direction where there wasn't solid rock in my way' is a perfectly IC motivation. And morph isn't like ash lizards or the podpeople, it's not meant to stay on lavaland. And even if I had no idea whatsoever what was on lavaland through the use of the 'jump to' button which is right on the spawners menu I would have spawned as the hermit because it was either that or be a drone.

[Vekter]

Metagaming also means using information you gained outside of game (Such as the Lavaland layout or who is antag and who isn't) in order to gain an advantage.

[Zybwivcz]

Metagaming also means using information you gained outside of game (Such as the Lavaland layout or who is antag and who isn't) in order to gain an advantage.

Again, that's such a wildly over broad definition it would cover everyone every round. Using information from the wiki would be 'metagaming' by that standard.

The only actual bans for 'metagaming' I could find were for metacomms, or for very specific violations like unhooking the plasma supply at roundstart. This is obviously neither of those. And it was given without the admin attempting to get my side of the story and instead applying the ban based on the complaints of someone I killed as an antag.

[Shirbu]

The only actual bans for 'metagaming' I could find were for metacomms, or for very specific violations like unhooking the plasma supply at roundstart.

Utilizing knowledge obtained while as a ghost, or prior to your becoming an entity, is metagaming, and is bannable.

And it was given without the admin attempting to get my side of the story and instead applying the ban based on the complaints of someone I killed as an antag.

You disconnected before I could message you. Thus I was left with reports from multiple ghosts, a straight path from your spawn to the ruin, and a path from the ruin to the station.

Irrespective, you used information acquired as a ghost in order to acquire antag, then headed straight to the station to kill the AI.

[Zybwivcz]

You disconnected before I could message you. Thus I was left with reports from multiple ghosts, a straight path from your spawn to the ruin, and a path from the ruin to the station.

I was online through the end of the round, nobody messaged me. There were a couple people whining in deadchat but they were people killed by the morph so it's not as if they were particularly reliable witnesses. And since that's all there was I had no reason to think I should stick around for the next round.

There was a path from the spawn to the ruin because miners coming past had dug one. The total extent of my knowledge was that there were a couple interesting ruins that had spawned somewhere on lavaland. I didn't "beeline" for anything, I headed out and stopped at the first interesting ruin I hit because otherwise it's death in an ash storm. I didn't dig out a path from the spawn to the ruin, I didn't use a pickaxe at all. I just left the tent where there is nothing and moved in the direction of least resistance till I hit something. I didn't know that I'd hit the gluttony ruins or some other ruins or anything at all. If I had zero knowledge whatsoever of the contents of a single tile on lavaland I would have done the same thing because it was that or spend lots of time digging incredibly slowly in a random direction.

There was a path from the tent to the ruins and from the ruins to the tent, but I didn't make either. Again, the reason there was a path between the ruin and the station is because the miners dug one. And there is literally nothing to do as a morph on lavaland. The wiki page on the morph makes clear its place is on the station, that's why it can eat machinery and crawl through pipes. There are no pipes and there is no machinery on lavaland. Heading 'straight to the station' is what morphs do.

Irrespective, you used information acquired as a ghost in order to acquire antag, then headed straight to the station to kill the AI.

I didn't use information I had acquired as a ghost to acquire antag. The most extensive information I had was that there were some interesting ruins on lavaland. I didn't know where the ruins were in relation to where I was or which route to follow or where to dig to get to any of them in particular or which if any I was going to make it to. I didn't even know if the syringe was still there at the time I spawned in. I didn't spawn as the hermit with the intention of getting antag I spawned as the hermit because it was that or stay dead for the rest of the round or become a drone.

I headed straight to the station because that's what a morph does, but I didn't go anywhere to kill the AI because I had no idea the AI was MALF until I got to the station. I hadn't played previously in the round, I had zero reason to have any sort of grudge against the AI or a reason to target them. It just seemed a more interesting target than eating protolathe boards.

That's not "pretty high level metagaming". It's not metagaming in the sense it seems to ever be used as a rationale for bans that I've been able to find, it's not metagaming in the sense it's ever enforced or could be enforced consistently.

If that's bannable metagaming it's also bannable metagaming every time someone drops from the server because they see their body get gibbed right after they die, or because they stick around as they see it getting dragged to medbay for revival.

Using ghost to figure out who's an antag sensibly falls within the established definition of metagaming. If I had used ghost to plot out the exact path from spawn to the ruins and used that knowledge to tunnel straight to it and nowhere else, that could reasonably be considered metagaming. But seeing what's happening to your corpse when deciding to drop or take a ghost role or stick around isn't, and neither is just knowing that there are some ruins somewhere on lavaland.

[Shirbu]

I think that in light of your explanation, the fact that you didn't do any of the digging, and the fact that you weren't privy to the status of the AI prior to your excursion, this ban is overblown, if not invalid.

Using information gained as a ghost with regards to the position of ruins is a bannable violation. Using exclusively knowledge that such ruins exist is not.

I received ahelps soon after the end of the round, but before reboot, so your disconnecting is perfectly reasonable as I did not get to you before the round ended.

As such I am rescinding this ban immediately, as my specific reasons for applying the ban has been shown to not be true.

I apologize for the inconvenience I have caused you.

[Shirbu]

As such I am rescinding this ban immediately

The ban is rescinded.