Character name: Eduardo Kiefer
Ban type: Server+Role
Ban length: 1 day server ban, 1 week sec ban.
Ban reason: As a detective, was shot at by an assistant with a stolen experimental laser weapon. Disarmed and retrieved the weapon. Proceded to kill and cremate them. This isn't the first time you've been warned about round removing as security for poor reasons. The next ban will be much higher.
Time ban was placed: 2020-04-06,14:40:27
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 134055
Your side of the story: The note is factually correct. I attempted to disarm an assistant because they had a gun and they immediately shot me with it (lethal).
Logs:https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/ter ... nd-134055/
Admin PMs
Why you think you should be unbanned:Admin PM from-FloranOtten: Why did you kill and cremate Collin Ali?
PM to-Admins: Stole HoS gun, proceeded to shot me when i rightfully attempted to take it from them.
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: Theft is not a valid reason to kill and cremate.
PM to-Admins: This is grand theft and they shot me with lethal what do you need more than that?
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: I warned you three months ago for the exact same thing. Stop needlessly round removing people.
PM to-Admins: But they were valid, if you want to take this to the forum we might as well.#I'm not going to beat around the bush when some random tider decides to self antag and shot security when they were doing their job, had they not shot me i wouldn't have executed them on the spot.#I'm pretty sure you KNOW they CANNOT harm an officer for doing their job and i'm the one getting in trouble?
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: You cannot kill a security officer for doing their job, no. But you can't cremate someone for shooting at you, either.
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: You never got hit. I'm going to be talking to him about banbaiting, because this is very close to that, but when you went beyond killing towards cremating, you crossed a line.
//Forgot to get this PM, this is where I tell floran I did get hit//
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: The logs are buggy again, pardon. I can't tell if it damaged you, but you did get hit. However, you proceded to take the gun and then kill them with it. You had disarmed them, and then deliberately killed them. That's borderline, but given it was a high value item, I can look past that. However, cremating for someone shooting you once and stealing is not allowed.
PM to-Admins: I'm sorry, but they were valid right? #Which rules prevents me from disposing of them in whatever way i wish?#I was about to put them in a morgue tray and, as far as i can tell this is still round removal (perma is too), i would have been punished the same way had i killed them and put them in said tray. Why am i even getting bwoinked for this?
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: Someone in a tray can be found, and revived. Someone in perma can escape. Someone who is cremated is gone, period. There is no way to bring them back. It's clear from your responses that you don't feel sorry, and are not going to change your behaviour. I'm going to be banning you for a day, and secbanning you for a week.
PM to-Admins: You still evaded my questions, that's rather rude.
[#1]I had good reasons.
Relevant rules
I played by the book, the assistant decided to use a lethal and restricted weapon on me, they acted like an antoganist and I treated them as such. Killing them was fair game.Main Rules
4.Lone antagonists can do whatever they want.
Short of metagaming/comms, bug/exploit abuse, erotic/creepy stuff, OOC in IC or IC in OOC, and spawn-camping arrivals. Team antagonists can do whatever they want as per lone antagonists, as long as it doesn’t harm their team. Non-antagonists can do whatever they want to antagonists as per lone antagonists, but non-antagonists are not allowed to pre-emptively search for, hinder or otherwise seek conflict with antagonists without reasonable prior cause. Non-antags acting like an antag can be treated as an antag.
Security Policy & Precedents
3.The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.
2.Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Security are not exceptions to the rule where non-antagonists can do anything they want, as per rule 4, to antagonists.
What wasn't fair game was shooting me for doing my job. This was self-antag.
Note that this wasn't a regular round, an admin event was ongoing during which the station was haunted and some silly stuff had been happening throughout the round: armsky single handedly robusting all officers and the warden, all the station lights breaking, fake cult activity (didn't confirm this one but this seemed pretty fake) and toward the end summon ghosts.Escalation
snip
Exceptions: Security is expected not to retaliate with random abuse or violence unless the person in question is otherwise eligible for execution. You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons.
The brig had been looted prior to this incident and was wide open, I wanted to put them in the sec morgue tray at first but didn't because summon ghosts would most likely allow them to meta with just about anyone and get their body retrieved from the now unsecure brig.
[#2]The banning admin wasn't being honest/Clear enough
After asking both parties what happened you immediately assumed the worst of me when you I gave you my side of the story. Antagonizing me.
This is less than ideal considering my first reply was crystal clear, no I didn't kill them only for theft but because they shot me and I did in fact get hit. And no this isn't the exact same thing as my only security related note from 3 months ago written by you, this note was about me attempting to shuttlegib a suspected changeling in the confusion after an EMP went off nearby, it wasn't needless from my point of view and bringing it up as if it was the exact same thing was pretty dishonest of you.PM to-Admins: Stole HoS gun, proceeded to shot me when i rightfully attempted to take it from them.
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: Theft is not a valid reason to kill and cremate
snip
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: I warned you three months ago for the exact same thing. Stop needlessly round removing people.
snip
Admin PM from-FloranOtten: You never got hit. I'm going to be talking to him about banbaiting, because this is very close to that, but when you went beyond killing towards cremating, you crossed a line.
What really bothered you was me cremating them but nothing in the rules requires me to make sure someone is retrievable, as far as i'm concerned I could have spaced them or even stuffed them in a random locker and it would have been all the same: non-antagonists can do anything they want, as per rule 4, to antagonists. People get removed from rounds all the time for the exact same reason and implying going a step further and destroying their body makes it ban worthy is in my opinion ridiculous.
Not only that but you knew full well that what they did was wrong and went ahead with the ban, you said it was clearly ban baity.
Yes I deliberately killed and cremated them for attempting on my life and grand theft. And no, i'm not going to "feel sorry" because I don't think what I did was wrong considering the situation.
This is why I would like this ban lifted and its related note removed.