[Sylphet] Admin doesn't understand IC/OOC distinction

[Zybwivcz]

BYOND account: Zybwivcz
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 3 days
Server: Sybil
Server Round: #53363
Time ban was placed: 2021-02-26T01:24

Reason Given: Metagaming - as a scientist, died to a malf AI and took the body of the captain that was offered to ghosts. Used this position to demand law checks. Captain did not know ICly that the AI was MALF.

Why you think you should be unbanned: I requested law checks(and only checks) as captain after multiple public reports in which a blue APC was reported and the RD was outed as a traitor. This is not metagaming. I announced the AI was MALF only after its borg hypo'ed me with mute toxin and tried to kill me as captain. Again, this is not metagaming.

Your side of the story: For starters, the admin was wrong as I didn't declare the AI MALF until after its borg had used an emagged hypo chemical on me. What I had said about the AI previously was:
[Security] Abduk 'MF' Jamer says, "Someone please check it. Also the RD"

which is perfectly reasonable in character given the fact that there had been reports over general comms of a blue APC, and of the RD possessing traitor gear:
[Common] Jordan Drippini says, "BLUE APC IN CUSTODIAL CLOSET"

I very specifically did not just say the AI was MALF because I wasn't sure if the captain would have had an IC reason to be sure of that yet. I asked someone to check on the AI because that was 100% reasonable given the reports over general comms. Asking someone to check the AI's laws when the RD has been outed as a traitor is not by any stretch metagaming, doubly so given the reported blue APC. When I brought up the early mention of the blue APC, the admin suggested it didn't constitute evidence because all APCs were blue at first, suggesting a less than complete understanding of how the MALF antag works or why it would be reasonable to suspect one.

If the admin thought it was "metagaming" to shout that the AI was MALF after a borg uses mute toxin on you, that's obviously wrong.

When there have been multiple public reports of behavior that is clearly indicative of a MALF or compromised AI, there is nothing remotely "metagame" about the captain asking SEC to check on the AI. I knew OOC the AI was MALF, but I very specifically limited my request to what the minimal reasonable IC knowledge of the captain would have been up to that point, given only public reports over station general comms. I emphasize minimal because I had no idea what if any reports or suspicions about the AI had gone over command or sec comms before I switched in. Asking someone to "check on" a MALF AI is something that's likely to just get them killed, but I made sure not to give SEC a more specific or urgent warning because I wasn't sure it could be justified IC.

[Sylphet]

Actual round ID is 157140 - https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/157140

There was one report of a blue APC that was quickly found to be charging, not hacked. You seem to be thinking that there were multiple - there weren't.

What actually happened here is that you died as a scientist to the malf AI, took the captain role. Less than a minute after taking the captain role, without any announcements over common radio in this time frame, you asked for the AI's laws to be checked. When this didn't happen, you said :

[2021-02-26 00:49:55.716] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "What's with the AI?" (Bridge (129,133,3))
[2021-02-26 00:50:42.155] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Someone please check it. Also the RD" (Command Hallway (131,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:51:30.842] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Oh gee the AI says it's fine I guess we can take its word then no reason to worry" (Bridge (125,136,3))
[2021-02-26 00:51:40.365] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Someone go check on the fucking AI" (Bridge (124,140,3))

Everything that you said in this time was to pressure crew into checking on the AI based on one single report that you didn't even hear IC. This is not slight concern like you claim it is in your appeal. This is you using the opportunity of a second life to make the life of the antag that killed you harder, which is metagame. You know better with the number of hours that you have.

[Vekter]

Round number is incorrect, it's round #157140.

Looking at the round's logs, your first interaction with the borgs was when you were injected with mute toxin by one of the borgs around 00:47 into the round.

[2021-02-26 00:47:25.415] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Quentin Jesse) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with research director's rubber stamp (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 100) (Research Director's Office (163,94,3))
[Pruned a few lines of the chemist making lube and people slipping]
[2021-02-26 00:47:32.060] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/mutetoxin (5u)) from the cyborg hypospray to Zybwivcz/(Quentin Jesse) (NEWHP: 61.4) (Research Director's Office (163,95,3))
[2021-02-26 00:47:32.061] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has injected Zybwivcz/(Quentin Jesse) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Mute Toxin) (NEWHP: 61.4) (Research Director's Office (163,95,3))

Mind, the logs are accurate to his name - this was before he was killed and came back as captain.

The next interaction between you and that borg was around 00:53, after you'd taken over for the Captain, when you slapped it with a baton and it, again, mute toxined and injected you with Fl-acid.

[2021-02-26 00:53:11.191] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 65) (Teleporter Room (113,127,3))
[Pruned a few lines of virology work and some monkeys slapping themselves]
[2021-02-26 00:53:22.425] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/mutetoxin (5u)) from the cyborg hypospray to Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) (NEWHP: 100) (Teleporter Room (114,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:22.425] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has injected Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Mute Toxin) (NEWHP: 100) (Teleporter Room (114,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:23.513] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/mutetoxin (5u)) from the cyborg hypospray to Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) (NEWHP: 100) (Teleporter Room (114,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:23.513] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has injected Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Mute Toxin) (NEWHP: 100) (Teleporter Room (114,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:26.608] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (5u)) from the cyborg hypospray to Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) (NEWHP: 87.5) (Teleporter Room (115,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:26.609] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has injected Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Fluorosulfuric acid) (NEWHP: 87.5) (Teleporter Room (115,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:26.685] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with fire axe (Wielded) (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 41) (Teleporter Room (116,127,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:27.684] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with fire axe (Wielded) (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 17) (Teleporter Room (116,127,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:31.375] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with fire axe (Wielded) (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -7) (Teleporter Room (113,127,3))

Off to the say logs, your specific example happened around 00:50, so it could indeed be argued that you used your previous knowledge of the round to bring up being suspicious of the AI. You also mention a few times more before the borg attacks you:

[2021-02-26 00:51:30.842] SAY: 00:51:30.842] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Oh gee the AI says it's fine I guess we can take its word then no reason to worry" (Bridge (125,136,3))
[2021-02-26 00:51:40.365] SAY: 00:51:40.365] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Someone go check on the fucking AI" (Bridge (124,140,3))

To be fair, it's not until 45:31, well after you were attacked, before you start saying the AI is malf. In, like, the most irritating way possible.

[2021-02-26 00:54:31.704] SAY: 00:54:31.704] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "MALF MALF MALFY MALF" (Command Hallway (119,126,3))

Logs from https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... nd-157140/

[Zybwivcz]

Actual round ID is 157140 - https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/157140

There was one report of a blue APC that was quickly found to be charging, not hacked. You seem to be thinking that there were multiple - there weren't.

A report of a blue APC is a reasonable reason to check on the AI because a blue APC is a sign of either an emagged APC or a MALF AI. I'm not sure if this was clear to you. If there was any follow up report over general radio claiming it was merely charging I certainly didn't see it, the only one I saw bringing up that possibility was you in ahelps.

There were also reports that the RD was a traitor. The RD has easy access to the AI upload room. Worrying a traitor RD has uploaded laws to the AI is a perfectly reasonable IC suspicion.

What actually happened here is that you died as a scientist to the malf AI, took the captain role. Less than a minute after taking the captain role, without any announcements over common radio in this time frame, you asked for the AI's laws to be checked. When this didn't happen, you said :

[2021-02-26 00:49:55.716] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "What's with the AI?" (Bridge (129,133,3))
[2021-02-26 00:50:42.155] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Someone please check it. Also the RD" (Command Hallway (131,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:51:30.842] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Oh gee the AI says it's fine I guess we can take its word then no reason to worry" (Bridge (125,136,3))
[2021-02-26 00:51:40.365] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Someone go check on the fucking AI" (Bridge (124,140,3))

Everything that you said in this time was to pressure crew into checking on the AI based on one single report that you didn't even hear IC. This is not slight concern like you claim it is in your appeal. This is you using the opportunity of a second life to make the life of the antag that killed you harder, which is metagame. You know better with the number of hours that you have.

But the captain did hear the report IC. This is why I am pointing out you do not understand the IC/OOC distinction. I was playing the character of the captain. The captain had been present on station since the start of the shift. The captain had heard what had gone out over the radio, which included the report of a blue APC and of a traitor RD. By definition that is in character. Having a ridiculous number of hours played means I understand that it both accepted and common for command staff to do things like ask for someone to check the AI in circumstances like the ones that had occured.

As the excerpt you've helpfully reposted confirms, I didn't claim the AI was MALF. I merely asked someone to go check on it. That's because while the character of the captain did not have in character reason to know the AI was MALF(as far as I know) he absolutely did have in character reason to worry about the AI and want it checked.

A report of a blue APC and and of a traitor RD is clearly sufficient in character information for the captain to ask someone to check on the AI. If the original account controlling the captain had not dropped and had made the exact same request for the exact same reasons it would have been completely unremarkable.

[Zybwivcz]

Round number is incorrect, it's round #157140.
The next interaction between you and that borg was around 00:53, after you'd taken over for the Captain, when you slapped it with a baton and it, again, mute toxined and injected you with Fl-acid.

The RD was riding the borg in the teleporter room. The station, including the captain, knew the RD was a traitor by that point. A traitor being carried by a possibly rogue borg is, I think, pretty good reason to at least give it a whack.

To be fair, it's not until 45:31, well after you were attacked, before you start saying the AI is malf.

Yes, that is why I did not have the captain announce the AI was MALF because up until that point I only had OOC knowledge of that fact. The captain announced the AI was MALF only after it was very clear to him that it was. That's why all I asked was for someone to go check on the AI, which with a MALF AI is probably likely to result in a dead checker. I didn't say "Go check the AI but bring backup and the ion rifle" or "Go cut into the AI chamber from the outside to check on it because it's probably MALF" because I specifically chose to only issue a warning the captain had in character reason to believe.

In, like, the most irritating way possible.

You're welcome.

[Sylphet]

But I did hear the report IC. This is why I am pointing out you do not understand the IC/OOC distinction. I was playing the character of the captain. The captain had been present on station since the start of the shift. The captain had heard what had gone out over the radio, which included the report of a blue APC and of a traitor RD. By definition that is in character.

I understand exactly what you're saying, but you're wrong that this is acceptable. As the captain, you heard nothing IC. Even if I were to accept this, at no point during the shift did the captain say anything about a malf AI. It was not on their mind at all, probably because the only mention of it was a charging APC. Again, you used a second life in bad faith for revenge on the person that you died to. I'd also like to note :

[2021-02-26 00:53:11.191] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with telescopic baton (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 65) (Teleporter Room (113,127,3))
[Pruned a few lines of virology work and some monkeys slapping themselves]
[2021-02-26 00:53:22.425] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/mutetoxin (5u)) from the cyborg hypospray to Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) (NEWHP: 100) (Teleporter Room (114,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:22.425] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has injected Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Mute Toxin) (NEWHP: 100) (Teleporter Room (114,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:23.513] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/mutetoxin (5u)) from the cyborg hypospray to Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) (NEWHP: 100) (Teleporter Room (114,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:23.513] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has injected Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Mute Toxin) (NEWHP: 100) (Teleporter Room (114,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:26.608] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/acid/fluacid (5u)) from the cyborg hypospray to Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) (NEWHP: 87.5) (Teleporter Room (115,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:26.609] ATTACK: Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) has injected Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) with the cyborg hypospray (CHEMICALS: Fluorosulfuric acid) (NEWHP: 87.5) (Teleporter Room (115,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:26.685] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with fire axe (Wielded) (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 41) (Teleporter Room (116,127,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:27.684] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with fire axe (Wielded) (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 17) (Teleporter Room (116,127,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:31.375] ATTACK: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has attacked Quite_anything/(Quiten.Borg3.1) with fire axe (Wielded) (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -7) (Teleporter Room (113,127,3))

You made the first attack against the borg as soon as you saw it. You wouldn't have done this if you weren't exploiting your metaknowledge that it and its AI were malf.

[Zybwivcz]

I understand exactly what you're saying, but you're wrong that this is acceptable. As the captain, you heard nothing IC. Even if I were to accept this, at no point during the shift did the captain say anything about a malf AI. It was not on their mind at all, probably because the only mention of it was a charging APC.

I'm not sure if you do, or if I'm failing to make myself clear enough.

Zybwivcz knew for a fact the AI was MALF since his character had been killed by it. The captain(as far as I know at the point in time when I took control of the character) did not know for a fact the AI was MALF.
The captain did know what had been reported to the entire station over the radio. The captain had heard a report of a blue APC, and reports that the RD was a traitor. I contend that it is perfectly in character for the captain to be suspicious enough given a report of a blue APC and a traitor RD to want to have someone go check the AI's laws.

Let me try to put it another way: Imagine the same account kept playing the captain. That account makes the same request after hearing the same reports over the radio. Is your first reaction to assume the account controlling the captain is using metacomms as there's no plausible way to justify the action("go check the AI") with the information available(blue APC, traitor RD) otherwise?

You made the first attack against the borg as soon as you saw it. You wouldn't have done this if you weren't exploiting your metaknowledge that it and its AI were malf.

As mentioned in the previous post, the RD was riding the borg. Traitor RD + possibly rogue borg = give em a whack.

[Sylphet]

You took a ghost role and used it for revenge. You did /nothing/ IC outside of that. I think that what you did is wrong and a break of metagame rules. Neither of us are going to convince the other, so - I have no interest in lifting this, headmins may overturn.

[Zybwivcz]

You took a ghost role and used it for revenge. You did /nothing/ IC outside of that. I think that what you did is wrong and a break of metagame rules. Neither of us are going to convince the other, so - I have no interest in lifting this, headmins may overturn.

If I had just wanted to kill the AI as revenge, I would have simply told everyone the AI was MALF the moment I took control of the captain. I didn't. I didn't kill the AI, either. I announced it was MALF only after it had been proven IC to be so.

The captain had demonstrated in character knowledge of reports of a blue APC and of the RD being a traitor. Are reports of a blue APC and a traitor RD sufficient IC reason to be suspicious of the AI? If the answer is yes, and I think it clearly is, then there's no rationale for the ban.

If there's IC justification for taking an action, then it by definition isn't metagaming.

"You took a ghost role and used it for revenge" is just attempted mindreading. You seem to have concluded this without evidence and decided to issue a ban working backwards from there.

[Domitius]

If I had just wanted to kill the AI as revenge, I would have simply told everyone the AI was MALF the moment I took control of the captain. I didn't. I announced it was MALF only after it had been proven IC to be so.

It's frustrating and difficult for anybody trying to ignore OOC knowledge from being used IC as a ghost role. Whether you intended to or not you spent the first three minutes as the captain seemingly fishing for a reason to call out the AI.

Code: Select all

[2021-02-26 00:49:03.284] ACCESS: Mob Login: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) was assigned to a /mob/living/carbon/human
[2021-02-26 00:49:03.286] GAME: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) Client Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) has taken ownership of mob Abduk 'MF' Jamer(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Bridge (125,137,3))
[2021-02-26 00:49:37.422] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Which of you isn't dead yet" (Bridge (122,138,3))
[2021-02-26 00:49:55.716] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "What's with the AI?" (Bridge (129,133,3))
[2021-02-26 00:50:42.155] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Someone please check it. Also the RD" (Command Hallway (131,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:51:30.842] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Oh gee the AI says it's fine I guess we can take its word then no reason to worry" (Bridge (125,136,3))
[2021-02-26 00:51:40.365] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Someone go check on the fucking AI" (Bridge (124,140,3))
[2021-02-26 00:52:09.300] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "I don't even know where the AI is on this awful station" (Captain's Quarters (136,133,3))
[2021-02-26 00:53:14.802] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "halt" (Teleporter Room (117,127,3))
[2021-02-26 00:54:25.813] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "test" (Command Hallway (118,126,3))
[2021-02-26 00:54:31.704] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "MALF MALF MALFY MALF" (Command Hallway (119,126,3))
[2021-02-26 00:54:40.330] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Kill all silicons. RD is bad too" (Command Hallway (118,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:55:00.818] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "AI is 100% MALF. Kill every borg and every AI" (Teleporter Room (112,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:55:07.213] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Arm up, kill borgs, kill AI" (Teleporter Room (112,128,3))
[2021-02-26 00:55:21.855] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "get it" (AI Satellite Foyer (177,43,2))
[2021-02-26 00:55:27.513] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) "Everyone to AI sat now" (AI Satellite Foyer (177,43,2))
[2021-02-26 00:56:59.524] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) (DEAD) "Is literally anybody going to do anything or just wait for the AI to kill everyone? I know what my bet is" (AI Satellite Antechamber (176,32,2))
[2021-02-26 00:57:47.523] SAY: Zybwivcz/(Abduk 'MF' Jamer) (DEAD) "someone called out a blue apc like 30 seconds into the round" (Space (136,48,9))

Are reports of a blue APC and a traitor RD sufficient reason to be suspicious of the AI? I think it's pretty clear those are good reasons to at least want to check the AI's laws.

It's a common gag to call out a charging apc near round start, which is a light blue, as hacked and call out the AI as malf.

Code: Select all

Round starts at roughly 00:40:00.000
[2021-02-26 00:43:36.766] SAY: Jarateproductions/(Jordan Drippini) "BLUE APC IN CUSTODIAL CLOSET" (Custodial Closet (95,126,3))
[2021-02-26 00:43:49.312] SAY: Cam54564/(Removes-The-Walls) "chargeing or hacked?" (Engineering (118,94,2))
[2021-02-26 00:43:56.767] SAY: Jarateproductions/(Jordan Drippini) "BLUE" (Port Tram Dock (84,124,3))

Up until the incident with Quiten.Borg in the upload when you attacked them I see nothing being said in chat except from you about the RD being bad or that something was up with the AI.

When anybody takes over a ghost role, especially one in an important position like the captain, they will be playing with fire when it comes to interacting with any antags or situations that are not public knowledge that they interacted with in a past life. At the worse end of the spectrums we have situations like this one where all of the provided evidence and logs are incredibly damning.

We are not mind readers, we cannot assume that everybody is out for revenge when taking a ghost role. However we must draw some correlation together for all of this to make sense and with the given sequence of events I believe this was a metagaming incident.

This ban will be upheld.