[<coffeedragon16>] CruelLordTywin - Banned for interfering with SEC

[CruelLordTywin]

BYOND account: CruelLordTywin
Character name: Pai Mei
Ban type: Sybil, Temporary
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: With a previous note for similar behavior, attempted to kill sec for as non-antag for little reason. Please ahelp sec if you believe they are abusing their job, you should not be killing them for it.
Time ban was placed: 2021-04-14 01:30:34
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 160237
Your side of the story: Less than 15 minutes into the round, Security starts hovering around Captain in a very weird way, attempting to get into the bridge (this was after Captain announced the safe code over radio). About two minutes later, Captain is being dragged off screaming that Sec was doing a mutiny so I run up with a flamethrower I just bought and shoot the Sec who are dragging the Captain AWAY from the brig. Immediately, the admin who banned me calls me a shitass and bans me for three days referencing the note I have on my account for beating up Sec for doing their job. I flamed the admin back a little because I was pretty tilted that I was going to get banned for 3 days.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I think that three days is pretty excessive and that the admin who banned me was being a dick. I don't regularly refresh the admin panel to check if admins are online and the captain was very obviously not an antag, so my first thought was that it might be a griefer/(s) who arrested the captain. While I understand you aren't supposed to retaliate against security for doing their jobs, arresting the captain doesn't happen very often especially when the captain hasn't done anything obviously wrong and can't start as an antag. While I should have checked if admins were on and ahelped first, I think this is more worthy of a note than a ban, especially since I didn't even manage to kill a single one of the sec posse lynching the captain and was perma'd for intervening. Surely you should not get banned when you intervene in a situation where one side is breaking the rules/it is an anomaly that rarely happens.
References of good conduct: N/A
Anything else we should know: N/A

[CoffeeDragon16]

Hi, I appreciate the time you took to reach out to me.

First, I'd like to sum up my point of view of the events that happened. I hear some things about a fight between sec and the captain on radio, and get an admin log for you using a flamethrower. I check it out, and I see the captain shoving an officer, the officer stuns the captain, and then you whip out a flamethrower and begin attempting to murder the officers. Nothing appeared to me drastic enough to warrant this. You had a note last month, (Warned - Please do not kill security for doing their jobs. by Wesoda25 on 2021-03-13) which makes me believe you were simply using the petty fight as an excuse to murder security. Given what was going on was pretty severe and you had reason to know better, I was both frustrated with this and needed to grab your attention. I could have been less hostile, but I felt it warranted to display the severity given the situation. You were in the right to get a mad back because of my attitude, though.

I'd agree with you that the three days are excessive if you didn't have a recent note for similar behavior. I couldn't find anything suggesting you even tried to talk it out. You should know better, and have been taught better. You understand that the Captain and Sec can't be antagonists, so I couldn't see why you would try to murder them with any lick of good faith involved. Nothing I can gather from the log's rounds indicate that the feud between Captain and Security was more than IC. If there are no admins online, the ahelps go to our Discord and we have a channel where you can ask admins for help to come online for it, which is mentioned in awho when none are online. The responsibility is on the player to follow the rules, and as such you should ahelp before doing something iffy like that. If you suspect security is abusing their job and breaking the rules, don't leap to self antagging like you believe sec is. That makes you no better than them.

[CruelLordTywin]

Hi, I appreciate the time you took to reach out to me.

First, I'd like to sum up my point of view of the events that happened. I hear some things about a fight between sec and the captain on radio, and get an admin log for you using a flamethrower. I check it out, and I see the captain shoving an officer, the officer stuns the captain, and then you whip out a flamethrower and begin attempting to murder the officers. Nothing appeared to me drastic enough to warrant this. You had a note last month, (Warned - Please do not kill security for doing their jobs. by Wesoda25 on 2021-03-13) which makes me believe you were simply using the petty fight as an excuse to murder security. Given what was going on was pretty severe and you had reason to know better, I was both frustrated with this and needed to grab your attention. I could have been less hostile, but I felt it warranted to display the severity given the situation. You were in the right to get a mad back because of my attitude, though.

I'd agree with you that the three days are excessive if you didn't have a recent note for similar behavior. I couldn't find anything suggesting you even tried to talk it out. You should know better, and have been taught better. You understand that the Captain and Sec can't be antagonists, so I couldn't see why you would try to murder them with any lick of good faith involved. Nothing I can gather from the log's rounds indicate that the feud between Captain and Security was more than IC. If there are no admins online, the ahelps go to our Discord and we have a channel where you can ask admins for help to come online for it, which is mentioned in awho when none are online. The responsibility is on the player to follow the rules, and as such you should ahelp before doing something iffy like that. If you suspect security is abusing their job and breaking the rules, don't leap to self antagging like you believe sec is. That makes you no better than them.

I feel as though the entire security force performing what appeared to be a coup d'etat for the captain shoving a sec is more on the captain and the sec who stunned him than the assistant who interferes. It seems bizarre that I am the one getting the three day ban rather than the parties who are instigating this, and who are playing roles which are held to a higher standard of play. Why should the consequences be IC for the captain and the sec who stun and kicked him and not for me?

Also according to the logs, the captain shoves one sec and is then stunned by 3 secs, all of whom could have interfered with Mario handcuffing the captain. By the time I arrived to the situation, the captain had been screaming bloody murder over comms about a mutiny and he was in cuffs (stunned by Mario Faccoilo, Joseph Miller, Joseph Nape in response to the shove, and handcuffed by Mario). The point at which I arrive to the scene is when the captain is handcuffed and being paraded off by sec.

[CoffeeDragon16]

I didn't interact with security or the captain because they were only stunning each other over a petty fight. You saw this, and without attempting to de-escalate it or figure out what's going on, immediately started escalating to an extreme extent. This is poor play, ruining other's fun. I don't see any reason why you should have your ban lessened.

[CruelLordTywin]

I didn't interact with security or the captain because they were only stunning each other over a petty fight. You saw this, and without attempting to de-escalate it or figure out what's going on, immediately started escalating to an extreme extent. This is poor play, ruining other's fun. I don't see any reason why you should have your ban lessened.

Obviously I wouldn't have involved myself if it was just stunning, however they had the captain cuffed and were actively moving him away from the brig. The captain did not stun the security according to logs. That is not a petty fight. The captain is not uncuffed for several minutes until he is extracted to the AI sat by a borg. Again, why is the burden on the assistant to de-escalate the situation when security is arresting the captain for a shove? This seems like it would open the security officers in question up to rule 3 under the security rules, no? In what universe should a shove be responded with an arrest, especially if the one shoving is the captain?

[CoffeeDragon16]

Phrased that poorly with the cuffing, thanks for correcting. I meant that in that situation, it was an arrest you didn't know the context of. This is in no means a situation you should begin whipping out a flamethrower in the halls for, captain or not. Once again, if you feel security is abusing their position, you should ahelp. As stated in the rules, "You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons. " This applies to generally any escalation situation regarding non antags and security, don't harm them for doing their job.

[CruelLordTywin]

Phrased that poorly with the cuffing, thanks for correcting. I meant that in that situation, it was an arrest you didn't know the context of. This is in no means a situation you should begin whipping out a flamethrower in the halls for, captain or not. Once again, if you feel security is abusing their position, you should ahelp. As stated in the rules, "You can't kill or maim security for trying to arrest you for legitimate reasons. " This applies to generally any escalation situation regarding non antags and security, don't harm them for doing their job.

But as it turned out, they were not arresting him for a legitimate reason, and they weren't doing their job. I feel given that context, I should not be punished as though I were interfering in a legitimate arrest. If the captain has committed a crime worthy of being arrested by the entire security force, I feel like the crime would be pretty obvious.

[CoffeeDragon16]

I was going to ask for the head admins on their thoughts here but it doesn't look like they'll get back to me in time before your ban is nearly over. You are expected to put any amount of effort towards figuring out what's going on before escalating as much as you can towards Security as a non antagonist. It's poor, frustrating play that I don't want on our servers, and I don't think anything you've brought up in the appeal changes that for me. Your appeal is denied.

[CruelLordTywin]