Coconutwarrior97 - Art from a minor involving federal or state legality.

[legoscape]

BYOND account: Legoscape
Character name: Jessica Sulivard
Ban type: Server
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: Banned by host: You, or another user of this computer of connection (Legosacpe) is banned from playing here. The ban reason is: After being noted by an administrator, messaged them via steam stating,"I will require ID for continued business"" before they'd purchase any more art commissions from them (worth noting, they were already friends on steam at the time). During the exchange they claimed they were not legoscape, but "his friend" and that they had also purchased the first commission for him. In a vacuum we wouldn't have seen it necessary for us to get involved in this. However, getting noted, pretending to be someone else, and then stating ""I will require ID for continued business"" before you would purchase another commission is really fuckign weird. We have zero reason to believe your attempt to get a copy of their ID that wasn't motivated by salt over your note and don't really care to find out. This is a Rule 0 Ban. Goodbye. This ban (BANID # 55109) was applied by Coconutwarrior97 on 2021-06-20 21:20:21 during round id 164493. This is a permanent ban.
Time ban was placed: 2021-06-20 21:20:21
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 164493
Your side of the story: I must first apologize for Alex responding and purchasing the art, to begin with. It was not my money, It was his decision. I personally liked the art but he had to rub the salt in the wound. We will not be discussing Alex in this ban appeal very often for this is my ban appeal not his, He doesn't much care for ss13.

We will be discussing the conversation that wubli and I had and the red flags I received when I heard "People joke about her being 17". Of the original piece of art I had received from her, we had discussed suggestive content. In my state, the state of Michigan, This type of content is considered lewd and suggestive. Receiving suggestive or lewd art from someone who is not 18 is a "State Felony".
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(i01jt ... 931-XX.pdf For reference minors have no capacity to contract, This means art as well, So there's that too.
Michigan Mandate of Laws dealing with minors.

Why you think you should be unbanned: If you have not received or made art, Yes you are obliged to provide ID to confirm age. If not done, the business cannot occur further. I had not learned about her being a 17-year-old until our altercation. I looked at her forum page and it states "17 years old" and I got concerned. Secondly, There were also red flags from the community members who spoke with her and joked about her age being 17. There was nothing strange to ask for photo identification if one of the two parties is questioning the legal age of their state, In mine that's 18. To my knowledge, she is a 17-year-old and If I were to continue asking for art from her in any suggestive manner, That could be a felony. And I will not be associate or do business with this person until Legal age is confirmed. This is a slippery slope that could lead to jail time. She said she will not be showing Identification, So Alex had told her no business will occur further. Why make this a public manner is beyond me, Why make a rule 0 ban is beyond me. I care little for the note I received. In the end, she was correct and I was wrong with multiple admin decisions.
Anything else we should know: Any and all Furry Artists I have had contact with have required ID for art. She did state in the end of the steam conversation she was 25 but her word is not worth a grain of salt without proper identification.

[legoscape]

I am more than willing to provide Full in-depth discord logs, On steam, I will be required to add Wubli to retrieve the entire conversation.

[wubli]

I'm baffled I genuinely have to respond to this. But hey, let's go:
Legoscape told me in OOC they wanted to commission me. They told me their Discord account, I added them, all good. Worked on the commission. They asked me to add a few things. Commission finished, all said and done, they were happy with it (or at least said so) and we moved on with our lives. This is the art, if you must truly see it:

Spoiler:

Fast forward two days ago (roughly), I noted Legoscape for a situation they had as a silicon, available here.
Yesterday, they reached out to me on Steam, saying that they thought the art was actually not good enough and that they would be taking their business elsewhere. They also claimed that they suspect I am underage (based on the fact my forum age is 17, which has been that way for years because I keep changing it as a joke) and tried to get me to send them my ID. I would apologize for my rudeness but this was just disturbing to me and I couldn't have reacted any other way. This is the *entire* conversation we had over Steam, censoring my Steam name.

Spoiler:

Now, this is the discord account listed in the profile, and the same one used to contact me for the commission:

Spoiler:

Now, if all this wasn't enough - they contacted me just now on Discord. It was long and dumb and I hope you forgive me for just posting the relevant parts, I will post the entire conversation if needed but I hope you trust that i'm not taking this out of context.

Spoiler:

They claimed that me not getting payment through Paypal is somehow related to me being underage. I explained that in Argentina, while you can use Paypal, you are not able to get the dollars out of your account and into your bank one. You have to exchange it to our local currency, which leads to essentially losing money to inflation. Any other argentine can prove what I'm saying. And if there's a way - it's obscure and not easy to do. I have an office job so I simply take commissions for getting game money so I don't have to pay for my hobbies with my wage.

Spoiler:

The fact I have literally shown a headmin my passport (i look bad in the picture :{!!!) seems enough for me not to have to prove I'm over 18. If anything more needs to be said, please do let me know. Otherwise, please leave me alone.

[legoscape]

I'mNow, if all this wasn't enough - they contacted me just now on Discord. It was long and dumb and I hope you forgive me for just posting the relevant parts, I will post the entire conversation if needed but I hope you trust that i'm not taking this out of context.

Spoiler:

Fast forward two days ago (roughly), I noted Legoscape for a situation they had as a silicon, available here.
Yesterday, they reached out to me on Steam, saying that they thought the art was actually not good enough and that they would be taking their business elsewhere. They also claimed that they suspect I am underage (based on the fact my forum age is 17, which has been that way for years because I keep changing it as a joke) and tried to get me to send them my ID. I would apologize for my rudeness but this was just disturbing to me and I couldn't have reacted any other way. This is the *entire* conversation we had over Steam, censoring my Steam name.

Spoiler:

For context, Alex was concerned with the purchasing of suggestive art from a minor and had requested Identification himself.

I'm providing full context to conversations had. Wubli has not yet allowed me to get the full unedited steam conversation that seems to be missing some context.

[wubli]

That is the entire Steam conversation. I sent it to the headmins yesterday.
I only edited out my name and added notes. I am not adding you on Steam again. I have nothing to hide, I simply don't want you to be able to contact me again in any way.
There is no extra context I am hiding, man, as you are very good at proving you have an issue without my aid.

[legoscape]

I have nothing to hide, I simply don't want you to be able to contact me again in any way.
There is no extra context I am hiding, man, as you are very good at proving you have an issue without my aid.

You say this but you did not provide the full discord conversation. And still lack to provide proper age verifying identification for my own concern. You took offense when Alex asked for your ID, I would not say "I have nothing to hide". You hid your name when I wanted to give you a form of payment, You are also hiding your Steam name? You are hiding for some reason and that is very concerning, You are only making me believe that you are a Minor. Alex and I were justly asking for age verifying identification, And you do not provide it. Why should I be banned for an obvious red flag?

Yes, the only reason Alex asked for identification was that I had brought it up to him, Without that conflict with the note I wouldn't have known about Wubli being potentially a minor.

[wubli]

You are also hiding your Steam name? You are hiding for some reason and that is very concerning

Wow gee I wonder why I would not want a guy from SS13 to know my full name, considering how everyone who plays this game is sane
i'm done responding to this thread. go to therapy

[legoscape]

You are also hiding your Steam name? You are hiding for some reason and that is very concerning

Wow gee I wonder why I would not want a guy from SS13 to know my full name, considering how everyone who plays this game is sane
i'm done responding to this thread. go to therapy

You know why I gave you my name? And spoke with you to have genuine conversations? I wanted to build a relationship with you to have someone when I had money, Ask for semi-regular commissions. All I wanted this to support you and allow you to flex your creative muscle. I wanted to get to know you so I could better know how to speak with you and hope we could be friends. So I'm not just "some guy" from ss13. Helping artists is something I do and I do it constantly.

I'm being cordial how about you do the same and stop insulting me.?



I will remove their name because they are not relevent to this conversation, Only the context. Context: She's a Russian artist, And she does make nsfw art that is illegal in their country, I help her get access to American available websites.

Wow gee I wonder why I would not want a guy from SS13 to know my full name, considering how everyone who plays this game is sane.

I'm using this picture to support how counterintuitive your words really are. I am not an insane person that you constantly state.

[MrStonedOne]

In my state, the state of Michigan, This type of content is considered lewd and suggestive. Receiving suggestive or lewd art from someone who is not 18 is a "State Felony".
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(i01jt ... 931-XX.pdf For reference minors have no capacity to contract, This means art as well, So there's that too.
Michigan Mandate of Laws dealing with minors.

There are a lot of sections in this chapter, i glanced thru them all and didn't find anything that says what you claim. Could you me the 750 code for the section you are claiming says this.

[legoscape]

Man, I don't know if you mean it like that or not, but this reads a lot like "LOOK AT WHAT YOU COULD HAVE HAD, IF ONLY YOU GAVE ME YOUR PERSONAL INFO"
Like, even if this is just as you say, you look like a creep trying to dox them over a note. That's where we're starting from here, and what you're saying in this thread just makes you seem insane. You should re-evaluate your current position because I think you're failing to communicate what the actual issue is if what you're saying is true.

Ok, This is fair. Let's go from the start.

Like, even if this is just as you say, you look like a creep trying to dox them over a note.

In the furry community where art is bought, sold, and traded. Carding for identification is a common thing, This is to prevent what I had done "Give the benefit of a doubt". As someone who buys and trades art, It is important for a legal transaction to occur and normally this is to be done on Paypal where an Invoice can be had, Identification would be provided on the Invoice to make sure the transaction was legal and justly done because like I said in my ban appeal, Minors cannot bind to a legal contract. There were red flags originally but I did make my first mistake and "gave her the benefit of the doubt". She had not told me her name I should not have allowed any transaction and this was my fault, Yet I set to correct my fault. I have had in the past angry customers attempt legal action stating they were not of age just to get at me. There are a plethora of ways to scam and blackmail in the community of commissions, Reassurance is all that Alex asked that he did not purchase suggestive art from a minor, Which is a felony.

"LOOK AT WHAT YOU COULD HAVE HAD, IF ONLY YOU GAVE ME YOUR PERSONAL INFO"

People go to jail for this mistake. Not carding potential minors have caused lots of headache in the past and have caused direct legal ramifications towards my own friends. Because you "seem of age" is not a good excuse anymore. Alex had the right to refuse further business to wubli because he had the right to. And I have the right to make sure he and I do not get legally affected in any way. Our concern is not to be taken as "creepy". Our concern is to be taken literally and seriously for this is a problem. I am not some monster attempting to manipulate with words, I'm speaking genuinely like I always do. I have many friends who can back up my claims of helping them even letting them flex their creative muscles.

And by the way, I don't care if she's a woman or not please don't make this weird like that I have a boyfriend and I'm not about to have my integrity belittled.

[legoscape]

In my state, the state of Michigan, This type of content is considered lewd and suggestive. Receiving suggestive or lewd art from someone who is not 18 is a "State Felony".
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(i01jt ... 931-XX.pdf For reference minors have no capacity to contract, This means art as well, So there's that too.
Michigan Mandate of Laws dealing with minors.

There are a lot of sections in this chapter, i glanced thru them all and didn't find anything that says what you claim. Could you me the 750 code for the section you are claiming says this.

Finally nice to speak with you MrStonedOne if only it wasn't under such terms, Michigan's child pornography law (referred to as "child sexually abusive material") makes it unlawful to solicit, create, share, or possess images of a minor (younger than 18) engaged in a sexual act. The creation of photography from anyone younger than 18 is not only illegal federally, Michigan's child pornography law would make me, The man of older age technically be "Sexting" and "Sharing" from a minor. My Paralegal friend has stated it would fall under, 750.145b Accosting, enticing, or soliciting a child for immoral purpose; prior conviction; penalty. The context of Soliciting does entail Sharing and Sexting. ((Those are the paralegal's terms not mine.))

EDIT: "Specific laws stem from the mandates of which I gave you. Specific laws are made such as " Michigan's child pornography law" to better define and to get detail to situations and legal action made for breaking these laws. He did note that the law could have been made from the 750.145b but he was not 100% sure. Most laws are interpreted so take the 750.145b law with a grain of salt and look at the law "Michigan's child pornography law"".


This website takes quotes from Michigan mandates and breaks down the content of "Michigan's child pornography law" in an edible manner.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/r ... xual%20act.

[Nabski]

In my state, the state of Michigan, This type of content is considered lewd and suggestive. Receiving suggestive or lewd art from someone who is not 18 is a "State Felony".
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(i01jt ... 931-XX.pdf For reference minors have no capacity to contract, This means art as well, So there's that too.
Michigan Mandate of Laws dealing with minors.

There are a lot of sections in this chapter, i glanced thru them all and didn't find anything that says what you claim. Could you me the 750 code for the section you are claiming says this.

Finally nice to speak with you MrStonedOne if only it wasn't under such terms, Michigan's child pornography law (referred to as "child sexually abusive material") makes it unlawful to solicit, create, share, or possess images of a minor (younger than 18) engaged in a sexual act. The creation of photography from anyone younger than 18 is not only illegal federally, Michigan's child pornography law would make me, The man of older age technically be "Sexting" and "Sharing" from a minor. My Paralegal friend has stated it would fall under, 750.145b Accosting, enticing, or soliciting a child for immoral purpose; prior conviction; penalty. The context of Soliciting does entail Sharing and Sexting. ((Those are the paralegal's terms not mine.))

This website takes quotes from Michigan mandates and breaks down the content in an edible manner.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/r ... xual%20act.

That law only applies if you have a prior conviction under 750-145A, which is about accosting, enticing, or soliciting a minor under the age of 16. (Or a prior conviction under an equivalent law from another state)

Think of it as "this person has a note history being a perv around kids, so we will raise the age limit that they can interact with".

You don't need to worry about this unless you have involved yourself with child pornography or a minor in the past.

[legoscape]

In my state, the state of Michigan, This type of content is considered lewd and suggestive. Receiving suggestive or lewd art from someone who is not 18 is a "State Felony".
https://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(i01jt ... 931-XX.pdf For reference minors have no capacity to contract, This means art as well, So there's that too.
Michigan Mandate of Laws dealing with minors.

There are a lot of sections in this chapter, i glanced thru them all and didn't find anything that says what you claim. Could you me the 750 code for the section you are claiming says this.

Finally nice to speak with you MrStonedOne if only it wasn't under such terms, Michigan's child pornography law (referred to as "child sexually abusive material") makes it unlawful to solicit, create, share, or possess images of a minor (younger than 18) engaged in a sexual act. The creation of photography from anyone younger than 18 is not only illegal federally, Michigan's child pornography law would make me, The man of older age technically be "Sexting" and "Sharing" from a minor. My Paralegal friend has stated it would fall under, 750.145b Accosting, enticing, or soliciting a child for immoral purpose; prior conviction; penalty. The context of Soliciting does entail Sharing and Sexting. ((Those are the paralegal's terms not mine.))

This website takes quotes from Michigan mandates and breaks down the content in an edible manner.
https://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/r ... xual%20act.

That law only applies if you have a prior conviction under 750-145A, which is about accosting, enticing, or soliciting a minor under the age of 16. (Or a prior conviction under an equivalent law from another state)

Think of it as "this person has a note history being a perv around kids, so we will raise the age limit that they can interact with".

You don't need to worry about this unless you have involved yourself with child pornography or a minor in the past.

This is correct to a degree, However sending pornography or sexual texts to anyone under 18 is a crime to the federal level. In the State of Michigan 16 is the age of consent but guardians of the child still are required to give consent or to allow that child's to make it's own actions and consent for themselves, but because wubli is in another country these laws do not imply.

[Coconutwarrior97]

I'm not buying any of this.
You happen to notice "red flags" with wubli's age, right after your note appeal and use steam to ask they give you proof of ID before you commision anymore art from them WHILE pretending to be someone you aren't. (I'm not buying the whole "it was my friend on my steam account" bit).

Its no secret that within this community we've had incidents of doxxing before and its for this reason most people keep their personal information very private. Hence why its completely understandable why wubli did not want to give any form of ID to you.

I will now sum up exactly why this is weird as hell since you seem to have missed that,
1) You make a sudden turn of opinion on commissioned art and bring up concerns over age which you previously did not right after wubli notes you and you appeal.
2) You ask for ID in order to prove age before you consider paying them any further.
3) You pretend to be "Alex".
These are extremely concerning signs of someone potentially attempting a dox because they are mad about a note someone placed upon them. That is why its so creepy. Obviously though this is not a ban for doxxing, since no doxxing actually occured.

We also asked hostbus about you and learned alot of information which definitely did not paint you in a good light at all and contributed to our decision to apply a Rule 0 ban to you.

This appeal is denied.