[Shaps] MooCow12 / Buzz Saw , Mostly note appeal.

[MooCow12]

BYOND account: MooCow12
Character name: Buzz Saw
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 1 day
Ban reason:
Time ban was placed: 2021-07-15
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 165960
Your side of the story:

I just want to point out a few details, some of it is a rant.

1. I spent the entire 20 minutes before then talking on radio wanting my id back and not even 2 minutes before the lethal encounter I asked them where my id was and then they ignored me and took off running.

2. Right before the ban was placed Shaps claimed that the captain did not defend me after the sec officer "confiscated" my id so therefore it is no longer my id, but the thing is the captain gave me permission to try to steal it back and even told me to cuff the sec officer (No this is not me saying that this gives me permission to kill the sec officer I`m only claiming that the ID`s Ownership is still at least argueably mine)

3. If the ID does not belong to me then does it belong to the sec officer? He still had it on him 20 minutes after the initial encounter? Is "confiscating" just a better way to say "greytiding" now?

4. Literally the established theme of the round is "greytide day" which is probably why the sec officer stole the id in the first place and the captain felt he shouldn`t intervene directly.

5. The note does not include the fact that I immediately took the sec officer to medbay after I got the backpack off and the id card back, I then informed the captain of the entire situation (but was still deaf) and went on with my round after several minutes of it were wasted.

6. Clowns have no way to nonlethally take someone`s backpack off, slip -> shove stun combo does not last long enough and only makes the cuffing combo viable at most (which, again clowns cannot do)

7. I assume this has nothing to do with security`s "metaprotection" since the sec officer was not doing his job when stealing an id that was legally given to someone else?

8. I had not used the ID to access a restricted area, it was taken from me immediately after I walked out of the bridge and infront of sci.

9. Explosive sudden crit is kind of mandatory when sec officers are equipped with 2 shot stun batons and are passively faster than me since again, im a clown wearing clown shoes, also I`m not sure if the sec officer actually took enough damage to die from it or he immediately succumbed, the blast didnt hurt me too much.

10 .This is also an issue with there being only one spare aa and the captain being unable to promote someone`s id card to such a level. If the Captain was able to he most likely would have upgraded my original ID and instead we are stuck with this mess of me having to argue with an admin over who an Id card belongs to, infact I dont think Shap`s had any room to debate unless he can determine something I did wrong for it to no longer belong to me in order for the random arrest and "confiscation" to be valid. Also since the captain can only give out one spare AA this should further enforce the fact that he deliberately wanted me to have it when he made that decision.

I just want my note to be updated at the very least since it has a few false/missleading details.

[MooCow12]

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... ecomms.txt


I dont know how to uhh "correctly" post logs that I found, so uhh just do ctrl f and type "hey seth" and it shows that the captain asked the security officer where my ID was and the sec officer lied about having it.



How exactly is the captain supposed to "bat" for me if he thinks that my ID was just missing?

[Shaps-cloud]

Alright I checked in with a few of my fellow admins on this in adminbus because I wanted to be fair and see if I was being unfair and jumping to conclusions that didn't fit the situation, and was backed up by the others that your actions were overkill. Let me walk you through the events from outside your perspective

1. Captain gives you the spare ID, not mentioning to the security team that he authorized you to have it
2. Sec officer sees the clown with the spare ID, that's a massive liability no matter how you look at it, and he very reasonably assumes you aren't supposed to have it (and let's not pretend "the captain totally gave it to me, honest!" is a very believable story without proof)
3. Sec officer confiscates the ID in a totally (as far as he knows) prudent and legal move on his part
4. You complain on the radio for a while and tell the captain about it. The captain, crucially, declines to just simply contact the officer and order him to return the ID, and tells you to just stun him and take it back by force. If you were smart, you would realize that the captain was (intentionally or not) totally hanging you out to dry, and he is very pointedly not taking a very simple action that would resolve the situation in your favor. This should be your key takeaway from this situation: Why would the captain tell you to try attacking a sec officer who, as you yourself point out, has vastly superior weaponry and armor as well as backup, when he could just tell the officer to give the ID back?
5. You ambush and murder the sec officer, likely damaging his gear and hearing in the explosion

Really. I think the Captain was just having a laugh at your expense when he told you to stun the officer and take the ID back by force, thinking you'd fuck it up and get your ass kicked. Instead, you went and just outright murdered the officer, who had absolutely no indication that the Captain actually did approve you having all access, and was just doing his job.

That's why you got banned for overescalation.

[MooCow12]

4. You complain on the radio for a while and tell the captain about it. The captain, crucially, declines to just simply contact the officer and order him to return the ID,.

He did though, SETH LIED TO HIM ABOUT HAVING IT.


no wonder he wanted me to be so passive, HE DIDNT KNOW FOR SURE IF SETH EVEN HAD IT TO BEGIN WITH.

How could you "confiscate" a spare id from someone and then LIE to the captain saying that you didnt take it and that they must have lost it? AND THEN NOT TELL THE ADMIN THAT YOU TOLD OTHER PEOPLE THAT YOU DIDNT STEAL IT TO BEGIN WITH?



And after the fact, when i did kill seth and got the id back, i went back to the Captain in person and told him what I did and that I got it back, the captain could have very easily just arrested me and stopped me right then and there?

[Shaps-cloud]

And yet at no point is that a murderable + maimable (as their hearing and gear would be damaged as well, even after revival) offense. The Captain has the authority to order executions for capital offenses and he is held to a higher standard when he exercises that ability. You, the clown, it should be obvious, do not get that kind of leeway to murder people outright like that. The Captain authorized you to try taking it back nonlethally with stunning, you decided to escalate that to murder. You don't get to make that call.

[Malkraz]

4. You complain on the radio for a while and tell the captain about it. The captain, crucially, declines to just simply contact the officer and order him to return the ID

[2021-07-15 00:05:47.588] SAY: 00:05:47.588] SAY: Eronymun/(Fujiwara Mokou) "Hey Seth" (Bridge (154,141,2))
[2021-07-15 00:05:53.323] SAY: 00:05:53.323] SAY: Eronymun/(Fujiwara Mokou) "You got the spare?" (Bridge (154,141,2))
[2021-07-15 00:05:56.657] SAY: 00:05:56.657] SAY: Laughingxp/(Seth Hawker) "no" (Starboard Primary Hallway (190,130,2))
[2021-07-15 00:06:26.351] SAY: 00:06:26.351] SAY: Eronymun/(Fujiwara Mokou) "Someone took the spare from the clown" (Bridge (147,139,2))
[2021-07-15 00:06:45.048] SAY: 00:06:45.048] SAY: Laughingxp/(Seth Hawker) "clown mustve lost it, sad, I wish I knew where it was" (Fore Primary Hallway (152,178,2))

[Shaps-cloud]

Not shown: Authorization to murder the officer

I'm considering this appeal resolves pending headmins deciding to override it

[MooCow12]

And yet at no point is that a murderable + maimable (as their hearing and gear would be damaged as well, even after revival) offense. The Captain has the authority to order executions for capital offenses and he is held to a higher standard when he exercises that ability. You, the clown, it should be obvious, do not get that kind of leeway to murder people outright like that. The Captain authorized you to try taking it back nonlethally with stunning, you decided to escalate that to murder. You don't get to make that call.

Anyone can make the call if major property was stolen from them? Your reasoning for banning me was because the ID was no longer mine when the captain did not try to get it back for me and he did? And then I took his corpse to medbay as it was the first time he had bothered me to such a degree (next time I would be allowed to perma round remove him)

And you must not be on sybil at all "executions" are done constantly regardless of captain being involved or not. Does this mean you are going to go for stricter rules, is that what this ban is implying?

And what of the security officer? He`s allowed to just keep the AA for himself for the rest of the round and lie to the captain about having it? If you are going to be giving security these kinds of metaprotections I should expect them to be held to a higher standard but it seems like you are failing to actually hold them to such standards.


You might as well perma me right now because as time goes on and I discover more about the round it only reinforces my belief that what I did was right, at the very least it brought this administration to light.

[Malkraz]

Moving this down here for clarity since I edited it in after Shaps responded
It may be relevant to note that the very same officer is shown in Moocow's video (note the medical armband) to be watching the captain take Moocow into bridge to give him AA, which further calls into question the legitimacy of him "confiscating" the ID card.

2. Sec officer sees the clown with the spare ID, that's a massive liability no matter how you look at it, and he very reasonably assumes you aren't supposed to have it (and let's not pretend "the captain totally gave it to me, honest!" is a very believable story without proof)
3. Sec officer confiscates the ID in a totally (as far as he knows) prudent and legal move on his part

Points 2 and 3 don't seem to hold up as the officer knew clown was in bridge with the captain, then had a captain ID, and rather than asking the captain if the ID was stolen, he lied about himself having it to keep it for himself. If these 2 points don't stand and it wasn't a legitimate arrest, this falls under escalation.
[youtube]mSSB_k1UmGg[/youtube]

[MooCow12]

One other thing, (Ill try to make this quick)


Shaps`s original reasoning for banning me is now very much defeated and he has now changed his reasoning, this is a solid fact.

His original reason was that I could not lethally try to fight for my ID card back because it was no longer mine when the captain did not try to get it back for me (It was proven that he did try to)

His new reason is that I can not lethally fight for my ID card back because the captain did not permit me to execute the thief.




This , again , very much implies that there is new policy overriding old policy that used to let you lethaly fight back for things such as id cards and heirlooms and other major character items without the captain`s permission. This Security officer kept the ID card for himself and even lied to the captain about having it so he is no different from a greytider due to his metaprotections being nullified, correct? So this new policy also applies to protect greytiders stealing your items aswell?

[technokek]

2. Sec officer sees the clown with the spare ID, that's a massive liability no matter how you look at it, and he very reasonably assumes you aren't supposed to have it (and let's not pretend "the captain totally gave it to me, honest!" is a very believable story without proof)

[2021-07-14 23:47:28.178] SAY: 23:47:28.178] SAY: Eronymun/(Fujiwara Mokou) (priority announcement) "First person who sends me a picture of Mario's feet gets the spare" (Captain's Office (161,130,2))

With this announcement the sec officer would have know that the captain is willing to give away the spare.

[2021-07-14 23:51:50.093] SAY: 23:51:50.093] SAY: Eronymun/(Fujiwara Mokou) "I gotta captain the clown" (Brig (200,126,2))

This message implies that the clown is now or becoming the captain.

He then even announces to everyone that he will take the spare from the clown
[2021-07-14 23:55:21.596] SAY: 23:55:21.596] SAY: Laughingxp/(Seth Hawker) "clown with spare, taking it" (Aft Central Primary Hallway (141,98,2))

The captain then asks for the ID
[2021-07-15 00:05:53.323] SAY: 00:05:53.323] SAY: Eronymun/(Fujiwara Mokou) "You got the spare?" (Bridge (154,141,2))
Sec lies
[2021-07-15 00:06:45.048] SAY: 00:06:45.048] SAY: Laughingxp/(Seth Hawker) "clown mustve lost it, sad, I wish I knew where it was" (Fore Primary Hallway (152,178,2))
This disproves the narrative of "The Captain didn't try to get it back" We all know what would have happened if the captain tried to physically get it or search a sec officer.

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... /game.html

This is not a peanut and on topic

[MooCow12]

This is not a peanut and on topic

I know this is alittle bit off topic but please bear with me

someone should not post relevant quotes and log data and feel the need to say that it is on-topic and then copy their post and archive it in the peanut thread in fear of it being deleted.

The players in this community should not be afraid of something like that, I know you guys are volunteers and I respect you for doing this but something is clearly wrong here. And i know you cant make everyone happy and you cant be perfectly thorough (especially on rounds with lots of tickets) and even when you go back on what you say people are gonna make fun of you and talk negatively about you.

But something is wrong here.

[Cobby]

If you post logs you’re required to post the source link.

[MrStonedOne]

The headmins are discussing the note appeal and deciding on their response, but after reading thru the logs posted i have just decide to remove this ban now while the headmins discuss things.

edit: remark about the banning admin removed after discussion with them. they did more investigation then i thought.

[Shaps-cloud]

As MSO has mentioned in the edit to his above post, this has been the topic of a long ongoing discussion in adminbus over the last few hours, and here is a summary of said discussion:

• I'm agreeing to lift the ban and the note, in light of additional information made available about the situation and the security officer's conduct that was not available at the time the ban was placed
• Specifically, a significant amount of information that is used in this thread to justify the clown's actions, namely the officer's lying to the captain and general skullduggery, were only made apparent to the clown after the round was completed and they were free to comb through the complete round logs in a way that they wouldn't have had access to at the time of the murder. The sticking point here, is that these defenses were formed entirely after the fact and would not have been able to factor into the clown's original intentions to murder the security officer.
• The original response from the clown when I questioned them about the murder,

  Code: Select all

  they stole the id that the captain gave me and since im a clown i have no way to stun them back or cuff them long enough to take off their backpack so i used an explosive spear and got the id back then took them to medbay.

  , was generally agreed upon (or at least gained no dissent) to show bad intentions on the part of the clown, and is problematic in several ways. For one, the clown's PDA is one of the most powerful slips in the game, forcing someone down to the ground for an entire 12 seconds, which any security officer who's been robusted by a clown can attest is absolutely more than enough time to be subdued and cuffed, then stripped. While they are at the mercy of RNG when it comes to using stunbatons and guns, it's very well known in the /tg/ community that clowns still have several potent options to subdue people nonlethally. In that respect, the clown's decision to jump to a decisively lethal 1-2 combo of a bola and an explosive lance (both of which together require a decent amount of resources and time to craft) rather than use a readily available nonlethal option was likely motivated by a desire for revenge, which supports the clown's intentions being bad and against the rules.
• All that said, the evidence that has been brought up regarding the security officer's bad conduct with playing dumb about having the confiscated ID specifically, is enough to throw this case squarely into "everybody sucks here, mark it as an IC issue" territory. At no point in the ticket, however brief it was, did the clown bring up this misconduct as justification for such steep escalation against the sec officer, because he couldn't have known all of those details until after the round when discussing the ban in discord and peanut threads with a dozen people combing the logs with a fine toothed comb.
• In this sense, the appeal process functioned correctly, as additional mitigating information was gained from the logs that at the very least push the situation out of bannable territory, since the security officer's dishonesty and shiftiness did in fact play an indirect role in him getting killed, even if no one involved in the situation could have recognized that at the time. That is to say, the security officer knowingly took risks with his bad conduct after confiscating the ID and had he simply been honest, his death wouldn't have happened. In that sense, it would absolutely be an IC issue.

I'm more than willing to admit that having had the above conversations and seeing the evidence brought up after the round, you can safely be absolved of the ban and will have the note removed shortly. On both a professional and personal level, I apologize for being dismissive of the additional evidence you brought up in this thread, and I'll strive to be more open minded in handling future ban appeals. That said, as MSO indicated in his edit above, my initial placement of the ban was not due to carelessness or callousness in the moment, and I take these matters very seriously. Even with all of the investigative tools admins have available to them, we definitely get things wrong sometimes, and I hope we can break bread on this and get along on the server going forward without any hard feelings.

[Naloac]

The ban and note have both been removed, but we feel it's necessary to give our thoughts on this

We disagree with this ban, not only should the seccie have known about AA not being stolen from this log.

Spoiler:

[2021-07-14 23:47:28.178] SAY: Eronymun/(Fujiwara Mokou) (priority announcement) "First person who sends me a picture of Mario's feet gets the spare" (Captain's Office (161,130,2))

These two logs where he "really doesnt know where it is" while having it on him

Spoiler:

[2021-07-15 00:06:45.053] TCOMMS: Laughingxp/(Seth Hawker) [Security] (spans: ) "Clown mustve lost it, sad, I wish I knew where it was" (language: Galactic Common) (Fore Primary Hallway (152,178,2))
[2021-07-15 00:06:53.161] TCOMMS: Laughingxp/(Seth Hawker) [Security] (spans: ) "Its as if, it was wrong to give it to them in the first place!" (language: Galactic Common) (Fore Primary Hallway (152,171,2))

him acting as if he had no idea the captain was giving it away then pretending to not have it when the captain asks for it to just keep it for himself shows incredible bad faith on his part. not to mention when he gets rightly killed by the clown he ahelps it and acts as if he has no idea why it happened

Spoiler:

If you think it's unfair or excessive they killed you for taking their ID, consider not stealing next round.

this rule specifically applies here, the seccie knew what he was going in for when he took it. Effectively acting like a tider in red. The clown killing him is in my opinion perfectly valid if the seccie wants to act like an antag he should be treated like one. Mass AA is rarely a problem with ID changes so that wouldnt have been an issue.

If anything I would have banned or atleast told off the seccie for essentially baiting the clown


Naloac - yes
Jimmius - yes - I believe the new ID system means that the Captain's Spare is no longer valid to confiscate regardless of how it was obtained, as AA can no longer be used to spread AA- the Captain giving it out for a gimmick is fine. If the Clown is using it to try and tide the armoury, you can blow him away then, but there's no longer a need to pre-emptively confiscate the spare in case it's used to spread AA.
Coconut -yes - I think the investigation in this situation should've been better, but everyone makes mistakes like these at some point. I have made many myself. Moocow I'm glad you made this appeal, this is how the system works. In the grand scheme of things this mistake isn't even close to a big deal, Shaps you're a good administrator, keep at it.

[MrStonedOne]

[2021-07-15 00:06:53.161] TCOMMS: Laughingxp/(Seth Hawker) [Security] (spans: ) "Its as if, it was wrong to give it to them in the first place!" (language: Galactic Common) (Fore Primary Hallway (152,171,2))

What concerns me most about this incident was the clear bad faith actions on part of security. Lying to the captain, treating sec confications as an avenue to gain loot, and pretending that the confiscation was proper (when the captain not only made it known the clown was supposed to have the id, but also made it clear they wanted the id returned to the clown) when talking to admins.

It's not something often done, and I don't know if it's because it doesn't come up often or because it's just not in the consciousness of adminbus; but there is no reason why successful ban appeals that unveil obvious ban baiting or bad faith behavior can't result in the original admin helper being banned after the fact.

So that's what I'm going to do.

This was an egregious abuse of the sec officer position to gain all access. Not only that, but it was also an abuse of the admin help system:
The fact that seth lied to the captain about where the spare is,
The fact that the spare was not properly confiscated (given that it was clear to the sec officer the clown was supposed to have it, and the sec officer just didn't agree with that decision),
And finally, the fact that the captain had clearly made it known that he wanted the spare returned to the clown
are all mitigating, material and relevant pieces of info that should have been presented in the ahelp.

Especially considering that they were previously told that "Stealing from people does open you up for retaliation though, and you need to be aware of that." by an admin when they ahelped getting killed for stealing all of the chef's credits as security.

As an aside, I would like to end this by apologizing to shaps for the quip i made earlier in the appeal. They had in fact done due diligence for the most part, and while we were able to come up with some ways to handle this better in the future, it was unfair to imply they didn't do their part as an admin to investigate things fully.

[MooCow12]

For one, the clown's PDA is one of the most powerful slips in the game, forcing someone down to the ground for an entire 12 seconds, which any security officer who's been robusted by a clown can attest is absolutely more than enough time to be subdued and cuffed, then stripped.

Clowns have a 50% chance to instantly cuff themselves when they start to cuff someone else. (I think)

And what matters is not the knockdown its the following shove stun + grab grab combo required to hold them in place long enough to take the backpack off which is usually only long enough to get cuffs on (backpack takes longer and shove stun + grab grab would very likely just lead to me being batoned and put at the mercy of the sec officer due to the amount of time I would need to hold them thus again putting me at the mercy of RNG for grab breaking)


Just simply being on the ground is not enough to stop someone from reacting to you and preventing you from doing actions that require a bar to be filled.


Other than that im satisfied with this appeal.