[FatalX1] Elizabeth Sauter - Bridge Incident

[Mapache_King]

BYOND account: Mapache_King
Character name: Elizabeth Sauter
Ban type: All security ban
Ban length 2 weeks
Ban reason: Terrible security who shot and killed a guy for trespassing in the bridge and bluespace bagged another guy who was in crit after being stabbed by another officer because he tried to pull a prank, you are security and are expected to use non-lethal methods in these situations
Server: Terry
Round ID: 167568
Your side of the story: The cook Gor-Rok tried to break into bridge with the mime so i shoot the disabler:
King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has shot Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with the disabler beam (137, 138, 2)Bridge
05:53:26 King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has fired at [Bridge Access] with the disabler beam from Bridge (138, 138, 2)Bridge
05:53:26 King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has shot Kekium/(Kira Walker) with the disabler beam (138, 138, 2) Bridge
05:53:27 King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has grabbed Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) passive grab (NEWHP: 96.3)(137, 138, 2)Bridge
05:53:32 King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has grabbed Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) aggressive grab (NEWHP: 96.3)(130, 137, 2)Primary Tool Storage
05:53:33 King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has thrown Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) grab from tile in Primary Tool Storage (130,136,2) towards tile at Primary Tool Storage (123,140,2) (NEWHP: 96.3)(130, 136, 2)Primary Tool Storage
05:53:33 King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has thrown Gor-Rok (130, 136, 2)Primary Tool Storage.
After i stunned them i threw them in the tool storage, after a while he cames back again: (At this point i thought it was a rev or a traitor getting something from bridge because why would a cook get into bridge not once but twice)
Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has got a stun punch with their previous punch Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) (NEWHP: 88.5) (151, 137, 2)Bridge
06:00:25 Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) has shaken Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) (NEWHP: 95)(152, 138, 2)Bridge
06:00:26 Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(AOE) Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) with the flash (NEWHP: 80.6)(151, 138, 2)Bridge
06:00:26 Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(AOE) Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) with the flash (NEWHP: 88.5) (151, 138, 2)Bridge
06:00:26 Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) has shaken Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) (NEWHP: 95)(152, 138, 2)Bridge
06:00:26 Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(targeted) Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) with the flash (NEWHP: 80.6)(151, 138, 2)Bridge
06:00:28 Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(targeted) Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) with the flash (NEWHP: 80.6)(151, 139, 2)Bridge
06:00:31 King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has shot Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with the bullet (NEWHP: 95)(147, 140, 2)Bridge
06:00:31 King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has shot Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with the bullet (NEWHP: 89)
Cap gave Nowell spare ID with the name "Head of Assistants" and he was getting in a fight with the same guy who tried to break into bridge now for the 2 time he cames in and fights the Head of Assistants, then after all that revs where confirmed, i was suspecting them but i wasnt sure because why would a cook try to enter bridge not once but twice and try to fight someone, after that i get the ticket.
The other reason i got the banned was a guy who tried to put me in a bluespace bag more than one time, only thing i did is but him in the bag and leave him in chap where i told the chap that was his new recruit.

Why you think you should be unbanned: A cook not only once but twice tries to enter bridge and was fighting the new Head of Assistants (Just the breaking into Bridge is odd for a Cook), as the rule says: Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security. I was doing my job protecting the new Head of Assitants who got into a fight with a tresspaser who got in for the second time.
The other guy who tried to bluespace bag me, i just did it to him i didnt know he was in crit or dying, if he died because of that im sorry but he was trying to kidnap me with the bag i did the same he would to me.
I don't add the insults that he gave me because i honestly don't really care and i didn't do anything because of the insults but yea he did insult me.

[Fatal]

Few important things in there

This when you spawned (it's roundstart)

[2021-08-10 17:15:17.012] ACCESS: Mob Login: King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) was assigned to a /mob/living/carbon/human
[2021-08-10 17:15:17.019] GAME: King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) Client King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has taken ownership of mob Elizabeth Sauter(/mob/living/carbon/human) (Security Post - Medbay (174,97,2))

And this is the first time you shot the lizard in the bridge (with non-lethals, so you did have them to hand)

[2021-08-10 17:53:24.904] ATTACK: King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has shot Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with the disabler beam (NEWHP: 100) (Bridge (137,139,2))

That's nearly 40 minutes into the round

Players who attempt to break into the captain's office, head of personnel's office, or the bridge at or near roundstart for no legitimate reason put themselves at risk for being legitimately killed by the captain, heads of staff, or security.

For sake of clarity (because I actually believe it to be obvious), 40 minutes is not at, or near, roundstart, meaning you cannot jump straight to killing people for this as security

As you say, he comes back to the bridge

[2021-08-10 18:00:31.402] ATTACK: King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has fired at [reinforced window] with the bullet from Bridge (Bridge (147,140,2))
[2021-08-10 18:00:31.405] ATTACK: King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has shot Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with the bullet (NEWHP: 95) (Bridge (147,140,2))

Whilst we did have revs at some point in the round, the first instance I can find of ANYONE being revolutionary, is this

[2021-08-10 18:07:02.626] ATTACK: Chocolate_bickie/(Chuck Bicar) has been converted to the revolution! (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,130,2))
Chuck was one of the headrevs who was selected by dynamic because here he is converting someone

[2021-08-10 18:08:12.806] ATTACK: Chocolate_bickie/(Chuck Bicar) has flashed(targeted) Jimbothehimbo233/(Nysa KQ) with the flash (NEWHP: 90.4) (Chapel (137,58,2))
[2021-08-10 18:08:12.807] ATTACK: Jimbothehimbo233/(Nysa KQ) has been converted to the revolution! (Chapel (136,59,2))

All this is much after when you shot the lizard to death for being on the bridge

You were equipped with non-lethal weapons for this as proven by your first encounter, and jumping straight to killing him when all he was doing was trying to flash someone on the bridge (honestly I don't know why considering everyone on the bridge was wearing sunglasses that I could see and there was about 5 people on the bridge to start with)

You have a brig, and a gulag for people like this, you shouldn't be whipping out a riot shotgun and killing people who are clearly no threat, and if you did feel he was a rev, why did you not try and implant them to CONFIRM it?

I also want to point out that for the entire round that I could see, you and another officer (Kira) were pulling each other around, this is not a problem, but it does make you both a hell of a lot safer, so how much of a threat is an apparently unarmed chef versus 2 heavily armed (Kira had a spear and you had a riot shotgun ontop of what sec officers carry) and armored (you had the HOS coat) security officers?

As for the guy in the bluespace bodybag, you saw Kira stab them multiple times before sticking them in the bag and throwing them to the Chaplain, by both your negligence, intentional or not, he bled out and died

If you were both assistants, I wouldn't care half as much that this happened, but when you are security, you are expected to be better

From the rules:

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

Also

The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

This does not appear as you acted on the side of caution in either situation

[Mapache_King]

As you say, he comes back to the bridge

[2021-08-10 18:00:31.402] ATTACK: King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has fired at [reinforced window] with the bullet from Bridge (Bridge (147,140,2))
[2021-08-10 18:00:31.405] ATTACK: King_Mapache/(Elizabeth Sauter) has shot Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with the bullet (NEWHP: 95) (Bridge (147,140,2))

"Whilst we did have revs at some point in the round, the first instance I can find of ANYONE being revolutionary, is this" (This is the same guy breaking into bridge for the second time, he not only became valid the first time for doing it now he even came back again, at this point i just shoot the guy because i know he is valid)

[2021-08-10 18:07:02.626] ATTACK: Chocolate_bickie/(Chuck Bicar) has been converted to the revolution! (Fore Central Primary Hallway (134,130,2))
Chuck was one of the headrevs who was selected by dynamic because here he is converting someone

[2021-08-10 18:08:12.806] ATTACK: Chocolate_bickie/(Chuck Bicar) has flashed(targeted) Jimbothehimbo233/(Nysa KQ) with the flash (NEWHP: 90.4) (Chapel (137,58,2))
[2021-08-10 18:08:12.807] ATTACK: Jimbothehimbo233/(Nysa KQ) has been converted to the revolution! (Chapel (136,59,2))

All this is much after when you shot the lizard to death for being on the bridge

You were equipped with non-lethal weapons for this as proven by your first encounter, and jumping straight to killing him when all he was doing was trying to flash someone on the bridge (honestly I don't know why considering everyone on the bridge was wearing sunglasses that I could see and there was about 5 people on the bridge to start with)

-Like i said he was not just flashing he was attacking and harming the people on bridge

Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has shoved Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 95) (151, 138, 2) Bridge
06:00:18 ATTACK Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has shoved Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) (NEWHP: 96) (151, 139, 2) Bridge
06:00:23 ATTACK Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) has punched Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) (NEWHP: 95) (152, 137, 2) Bridge
06:00:23 ATTACK Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(targeted) Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) with the flash (NEWHP: 96) (151, 137, 2) Bridge
06:00:24 ATTACK Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) has disarmed (Sleeping Carp) Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) (NEWHP: 95) (152, 138, 2) Bridge
06:00:24 ATTACK Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) has shoved Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 95) (152, 138, 2) Bridge
06:00:24 ATTACK Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has punched Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) (NEWHP: 88.5) (151, 137, 2) Bridge
06:00:24 ATTACK Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has got a stun punch with their previous punch Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) (NEWHP: 88.5) (151, 137, 2) Bridge
06:00:25 ATTACK Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) has shaken Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) (NEWHP: 95) (152, 138, 2) Bridge
06:00:26 ATTACK Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(AOE) Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) with the flash (NEWHP: 80.6) (151, 138, 2) Bridge
06:00:26 ATTACK Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(AOE) Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) with the flash (NEWHP: 88.5) (151, 138, 2) Bridge
06:00:26 ATTACK Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) has shaken Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) (NEWHP: 95) (152, 138, 2) Bridge
06:00:26 ATTACK Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(targeted) Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) with the flash (NEWHP: 80.6) (151, 138, 2) Bridge
06:00:28 ATTACK Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has flashed(targeted) Improvedname/(Eden Wabbite) with the flash (NEWHP: 80.6)



"Saint1453/(Gor-Rok) has punched Account name contains reserved/(Nowell Petrov) (NEWHP: 88.5)" <---- Harming a new command in Bridge who the guy was tresspasing for the second time


You have a brig, and a gulag for people like this, you shouldn't be whipping out a riot shotgun and killing people who are clearly no threat, and if you did feel he was a rev, why did you not try and implant them to CONFIRM it?
-"If you crit a rev didnt it just say that "he remembered his allience" because i didn't see that"


I also want to point out that for the entire round that I could see, you and another officer (Kira) were pulling each other around, this is not a problem, but it does make you both a hell of a lot safer, so how much of a threat is an apparently unarmed chef versus 2 heavily armed (Kira had a spear and you had a riot shotgun ontop of what sec officers carry) and armored (you had the HOS coat) security officers?
-"Kira wanted to patrol with me thats why she was with me, the HOS stuff the original HOS just left the locker outside his office opened."

-"Same guy who twice broke in bridge which makes him valid just for only doing it once, fights a command in bridge, at this point i just kill him because or ethier he is a antag or just a griefer and even if he wasn't any of those he was valid"

As for the guy in the bluespace bodybag, you saw Kira stab them multiple times before sticking them in the bag and throwing them to the Chaplain, by both your negligence, intentional or not, he bled out and died
-"Like i said i wasn't watching this i was looking at other stuff, i didnt saw that he did crit him, there was people around and i wasn't paying attention to him"
-"The bluespace bag isn't a prank, i can get kidnap and get spaced"


If you were both assistants, I wouldn't care half as much that this happened, but when you are security, you are expected to be better


From the rules:

Rule 1 of the main rules apply to security. The only exception is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods. -"If valid you can just kill, i've seen it many times, i've died many times because valid"

Also

The 'act like an antag, get treated like one' part of Rule 4 of the main rules also apply to security. Stunning an officer repeatedly, using lethal or restricted weapons on them, disrupting the arrests or sentences of dangerous criminals, or damaging the brig, are examples of behaviour that may make you valid for security under Rule 4. Make sure players deserve it when you treat them as an antag, when in doubt, err on the side of caution as poor behaviour on the part of security will not be tolerated.

If he wasn't antag he sure was acting like one

-"Getting into a fight in bridge who tresspased for the second time is just wrong all over the place, 1 He dosen't belong there, 2 He was pushing and harming the command, 3 This is the second time he broke in bridge"

If you don't see it as i do then i will stick with the ban, but as i really see it as a valid hunt: Combat command, Tresspasing bridge for the second time.

[Colovorat]

On a guy with a body bag, as I stated in my appeal, he was alive after my stabs, he got critted only already in a body bag, that's why Elizabeth most likely didn't noticed it. And on cook, he was very intentionally trespassing bridge for multiple times, attacking command, which is literally makes him valid.
And Elizabeth, my character is HE, please

[Fatal]

Given that the Chef was being a sperglord and actually punching people I'm willing to reduce this from 2 weeks to 1 because I can understand your reasoning for shooting him, but your reason is basically "he was valid so I murdered him" when he was EASILY detainable by yourselves non-lethally

The issue with the guy with the bodybag stands though, you were negligent in dumping him in a bag after he was stabbed and the concept that him putting you in it can lead to you being kidnapped and spaced is not really on point here because you were with another officer at all times and he didn't actually put you in the bag, and I don't believe a single attempt to put you in a bluespace bodybag counts as "acting like an antag"

[Mapache_King]

No i don't say he was antag or anything the bluespace bag guy, that guy he was trying to get me so i got him and just threw him in chapel, i didn't know he was dying or anything.

[Fatal]

Okay well in future, consider using the brig for dealing with offenders and that way you know when they're bleeding out

As I say, I'm willing to reduce the ban to a week, and change the wording of it

[Mapache_King]

Can i get another opinion from a headadmin to review the valid killing for the cook?
The bluespace bag as i said i didn't know he was dying im sorry for that.

[Fatal]

Sure, the headmins can look at this, but no promises they're going to be quick about it

I'll leave it open for them

[Mapache_King]

Ok thanks a lot.

[Jimmius]

I've been trying to organize a headmin vote on this for a while, hang in there a bit longer

[Jimmius]

We're editing the note to remove the mention of the chef- I think repeatedly attempting to break into the bridge is probably a good reason to shoot them. The note has been edited to only include information about the bluespace bag incident.

Bluespace bagged a guy who was in crit after being stabbed by another officer because he tried to pull a prank, you are security and are expected to use non-lethal methods in these situations

Headmin Votes:
Coconutwarrior97: Edit note.
Jimmius: Edit note.
Naloac: N/A