[Ravebradbury] ikrarkjr - Been a long time

[ambrosia]

BYOND account: ikrarkjr
Character name: ???
Ban type: Server
Ban length: Permanent
Ban reason: (It won't let me copy paste it, so I'll paraphrase) Rule 1, combatitive in ahelps, generally antisocial and disruptive to the round. You have many strikes. Spent this whole greenshift ban-baiting.
Time ban was placed: 10 months ago, 10-20-2020
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 148711
Your side of the story: I think the matter of that particular round is irrelevant now. So I would rather talk about my history. Previously my first notes on the server were for not being nice in ahelps, to which I got in trouble for. Past that, I had improved definitely, slowly over time, but in the end I was banned for ultimately something else.
Why you think you should be unbanned: Well. For that exact round, the person to whom I was banbaiting I talked to on discord, and they were confused when I told them that I apparently was. They then said that the ban shouldn't have happened for something like that, especially when they didn't see anything wrong at all. This doesn't matter so much now. The important thing is I've learned how to conduct myself in ahelps, giving or receiving, and am a different person now in general.
Anything else we should know: If I remember correctly my notes were either regarding the way I acted towards staff, or that I wasn't roleplaying at the correct standard of MRP. I still wonder why it is that you can be banned from MRP tg for being LRP too much but not be able to play LRP anymore?

[Vekter]

As the person who originally banned you, most of your issues were regarding IC actions on the MRP servers. You were unbanned under the understanding that you'd been playing on a more structured server with less issues, yet a month later you had already been banned once more.

E: Oh also I've now learned you were permabanned from Skyrat's servers and Discord some time yesterday for toxicity so, while it's ultimately up to Rave, I'm not sure you're ready to come back.

[ambrosia]

The ban a month later wasn't over great reason, as I said the person who I was supposedly ban baiting thought I wasn't. I'd seen many times admins say "people need to ahelp more" on Manuel, but yet if I hadn't I wouldn't have been banned, despite no previous notes for abusing ahelp function, such as previous ban baiting. As for playing on another server with no issue, yes, I played on Bay a lot, and had no issues. I still have no issues on Bay but I also barely have played it in a long while..
As for being discord banned it was not yesterday even slightly, so I'm not sure where you are getting this information. Regarding what it was for, it was for arguing and fighting with players, and I'm sure you know that tg is less strict about that anyways. In fact I don't remember hearing anyone actually being punished for talking in dchat or discord, except when it becomes a different rulebreak, like spam or bigotry.

[ambrosia]

It has come to my attention that
"5. A permaban may only be appealed once every 12 months unless stated otherwise by the banning admin or a headmin. Subsequent appeals will be automatically rejected and deleted, and may result in a forum ban if repeated."
May be both interpreted as 'You may appeal once every 12 month period' or 'You must wait 12 months to appeal and every subsequent appeal'
Which may mean I created this appeal a couple months too early.

In the event that it is commonly interpreted as the latter, this was a mistake, not trying to subvert the system nor not reading the guidelines. Also should it be denied related to that, I ask that it not factor into another 12 months.

[RaveRadbury]

Your ban reason is

Rule 1 - Constantly demanding and combatitive in ahelps. Usually antisocial and disruptive to the round, both for players and admins. You've already got so many strikes. Spent a whole greenshift ban-baiting.

You built a comms console to force a shuttle call as a non-antag while also trying to Law 2 the AI over it, all as assistant. When I informed you that your behavior had caused others to view you as an antagonist you continued to ahelp when people were acting against you. You did this to the exclusion of discussing what your actions were in the round.

I was called in via a supportmin ping to handle this situation because the members of the admin team that were online did not feel comfortable handling a ticket with you. This in combination with the people who had vouched for you previously now feeling like they had made a mistake in doing so led me to believe that it would be best for you to take a break from here.

You waited a while on this appeal (you don't have to wait 12 months before you can appeal, many people appeal permas within days), but it also seems like you might have made it in response to being banned from somewhere else. Your claims of having changed are undermined by this news. Is there anywhere else you've been playing aside from Skyrat?

[ambrosia]

You built a comms console to force a shuttle call as a non-antag while also trying to Law 2 the AI over it, all as assistant. When I informed you that your behavior had caused others to view you as an antagonist you continued to ahelp when people were acting against you. You did this to the exclusion of discussing what your actions were in the round.

I had made the comms console to call the shuttle due to an admin announcement about needing to restart after this round, for some reason I forget now. I do remember that I had explicitly stated it in my call, with some IC variation "centcom needs to update their servers" or something like that.

You waited a while on this appeal (you don't have to wait 12 months before you can appeal, many people appeal permas within days), but it also seems like you might have made it in response to being banned from somewhere else. Your claims of having changed are undermined by this news. Is there anywhere else you've been playing aside from Skyrat?

I could have appealed it immediately or waited only one or a few months. I did not originally, because I knew of what you said (the middle paragraph of your message I did not quote), and decided that it was going to be a massive hassle and would rather just play somewhere else and wait some time out before appealing it instead. While doing so, it was not on my mind as an imperative time-wise thing to do, to appeal here. Ultimately now I am.
As for other servers I don't recall exacts. I played on multiple servers to figure out which one I liked best. Paradise, CM, Hyper, maybe even Cit and Bee. However the one I recall having a significant quantity of time in is Bay, to which I played many many rounds. I cannot see my own notes there, but to my knowledge there was only one bad event, and it was mild. It was in regards to infighting between me and another pirate, who would refuse to cooperate or talk over comms, to which I gave up and split off, which made the online staff uneasy. For that situation it seemed that while what I myself did wasn't unreasonable, they would have preferred me ahelp the other pirate first for refusing to cooperate as a team antag, before just splitting off myself too.

[RaveRadbury]

I checked in with Bay and they said that your last connection with them was over a year ago.

Without having someone to talk with to get confirmation on your reported improvement I don't feel very confident lifting this.

At this point I'd like to see you get a vouch from another server.

You wouldn't have to wait 12 months before your next appeal but you'll probably have to put a few months of time into another server for them to feel comfortable with vouching for you.

What do you think?

[ambrosia]

I do appreciate that, thank you. I'd like to ask if the next bit below sounds like a good alternative however, because something gave me what I think is a good idea.

I saw somewhere on the forums references to "probation"? Where I saw it specifically was on a permaban public log, for someone that 'violated the rules while on probation'. That doesn't really matter though. Anyways, it gave me the idea of only playing on the servers below MRP, for the character stuff. And as for the admin stuff, well, I think it would be pretty obvious, no? Like if you appeal it and a week later I go "How the fuck is this an ic issue are you stupid?" I just get my ban reinstated.

So, say, like... "If this player is on MRP while you are reading this give them a warning, if they already have a warning permaban them" (warning because I miiight accidentally click the wrong server or something and over something like a permaban would like to have a tiny bit of protection)
Additionally, "If this player proves to be toxic in ahelps, permaban them." Now for this I choose toxic, because the word argumentative can be a biiit problematic. There's been times I'm explaining my actions, why I did them, and why I thought it was allowed. And this can appear to be argumentative, even when I'm not mad at all. Now this usually doesn't happen, but admins are human, and therefore vary in personality and perception, so it wouldn't be surprising to me if a more grumpy admin, perhaps also having a bad day, goes "they are most definitely arguing with me" and reinstates the permaban.

Let me know if this seems fair. I tried my best to make it to be. If anything seems incorrect or you doubt some part my logic for some reason, tell me and I'll meet you halfway.

[RaveRadbury]

There's been times I'm explaining my actions, why I did them, and why I thought it was allowed. And this can appear to be argumentative, even when I'm not mad at all. Now this usually doesn't happen, but admins are human, and therefore vary in personality and perception, so it wouldn't be surprising to me if a more grumpy admin, perhaps also having a bad day, goes "they are most definitely arguing with me" and reinstates the permaban.

I'm not down for you blaming staff for the difficulty that they have in tickets with you. Your original ban was removed because admins went to bat for you, they then regretted doing it.

In the course of this thread you have not demonstrated a change in attitude that would lead me to believe that you have improved. Getting banned elsewhere in the broader SS13 community for toxicity doesn't help your case.

Please get a voucher from another server and then re-apply. Try one of the bigger hub servers.

[ambrosia]

I'm not down for you blaming staff for the difficulty that they have in tickets with you. Your original ban was removed because admins went to bat for you, they then regretted doing it.

In the course of this thread you have not demonstrated a change in attitude that would lead me to believe that you have improved.

Dude. That's not what I'm saying.
I'm saying if there is some misinterpretation once it would be really bad.
Because if I come across wrong, even when I'm not upset, or trying to be abrasive, and they look at the history? Yeah. Really bad.
Why would I not be worried about that? And how is just airing my worries about having 0 warnings, wholesale blaming all of staff?

I guess this right here is an example of what I'm saying, ironically.

EDIT: This is a chronic issue basically everywhere on the internet. The whole misunderstanding of tone due to just being plain text. Except in this instance it's more worrying due to the consequences of it. Even back then I admitted I was too hostile and was mostly definitely without a doubt making great improvement in that. Around the time of you banning me there was no issues in ahelps as far as I could tell. Also if I remember correctly no more notes for it. Proof in and of itself. Even if I'm somehow remembering wrong, one time in one month is significantly better than the original, like, 3 times in one week.

So I've shown improvement, but evidently I was banned for (mostly, if you would object) IC. It is not some kind of stretch that I've improved in admin tickets over the course of 10 months, when I had shown improvement before in such the same way. As far as I remember I had no notes for like, harassing players, so not that either.

[RaveRadbury]

We keep going back and forth on this but my position is not going to change.

I'm sorry, I know this must be frustrating for you as you feel you have improved. I need another server to agree with you on that.

Headmins are welcome to overturn if they disagree.