[Fikou] Summoner99 - Absurd Note Appeal

[Summoner]

BYOND account: Summoner99
Character name: GAIS-22
Ban type: Notes
Ban length: N/A - Its a note.
Ban reason: "As an asimov borg, brigged a person for 13 minutes, told that is against the rules."
Time ban was placed: 2022-01-28 17:58:34
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 177445
Your side of the story: I was remodeling escape and tearing apart the floor panels when a Janitor claimed it was an active harmful activity to do so, I told him to leave me alone, he drags me off to genetics (?), and about a few minutes pass of just screaming at each other till he hits me with a mop and I run around while he chases me. I flash him, he goes for the mop and I flash him again four more times then lock him in Departures Security Room. I call for humans and security, two assistants arrive but no security as it is lowpop. Humans take him, he uncuffs and runs off and comes back with more gear and talking about how I am rogue and a traitor because I "emagged beepsky" to arrest him. He wants to reset me and complains on radio for awhile before returning and staring outside the glass airlocks. I ignore him, go to kitchen to open some fridges for a human and as I pass back to Escape I see him seemingly trying to get to robotics. I ignore him and continue removing the pipes from the now-removed floor. He comes back with the other assistants and I'm guessing a spear though I only saw the text in chat and not physically. Tear gas grenades are launched and I move with Beepsky being behind me, Beepsky gets hit by a spear and gets mad. I move and another tear gas grenade goes off so I decide that after 50-60 minutes of being messed around with in a round for literally no actual reason he was finally on my nerves to be arrested and given over to the crew. Beepsky cuffs him and the assistants and I remove the Janitors gas mask, radio (to stop him from crying like he has for the past hour), and his other gear while his lawyer grabs his belongings. As I was about to grab him another gas grenade goes off due to an assistant so I grab the Janitor and take him directly to the brig to be handed off. I throw him in the cell, press the >> till it hits the cap, hit START and was handing it over to the lawyer and the assistants. Literally any human rather than me then BWOINK leading to the top notes. The timer was just meant to be temporary to do the swap over between myself and the humans, I don't care about security laws and I did not want to be involved with this guy anymore as I joined the round to build a room but instead I spent an hour+ in hell.

Why you think you should be unbanned: He wasn't even in the cell for 10 minutes, let alone 13, and he was thrown in just to get him from running around for the humans as there was no security nor command and I rather not have a guy who wants me dead standing next to me.

I have included the entire chatlog .html from my point of view to this post if you want to see an angry borg's point of view, these logs do not have timestamps but this round did last an hour+ and was lowpop so there isn't a lot of actual chat going on (EDIT: I would if it wasn't declined, here have a gist page because this site and Pastebin does not want it: https://gist.github.com/Summoners/3015d ... 5ef80b572f)

[Fikou]

Full ticket logs:

► Show Spoiler

From Ticket #5 during round 177445 on Sybil
Ticket opened at 2022-01-28 17:18:25 by fikou
Log:
17:18:25: Ticket Opened by-fikou: Hey there, what happened between you and Dustan Hache?
17:18:57: Reply from-summoner99: I am building and he keeps trying to kill me saying its a law 1 violation to build, so he keeps coming back to kill me and beepsky. He hit beepsky, got stunned and I arrested him after him doing this THREE TIMES. I just want to build.
17:19:10: Reply from-summoner99: I was literally about to ahelp because hes done nothing but fucking try to kill me for THIRTY MINUTES
17:19:15: Reply from-fikou: How is he trying to kill you?
17:19:53: Reply from-summoner99: He hit me with broom, gas grenaded me for some reason and went to get a flash I heard. He even hacked in and does that whole 'grab a weapon' Hell he even monologued about "Im watching you" and all hes gonna get me and all that jack
17:20:13: Reply from-summoner99: He could just say "law 2 fuck off" but instead hes braindead
17:20:46: Reply from-fikou: so he hit you once with a broom and then threw a gas grenade which does nothing to borgs?
17:20:49: Reply from-summoner99: He has told me MULTIPLE times hes here to kill me, he even just did it THIS VERY SECOND
17:20:57: Reply from-summoner99: Dustan Hache exclaims, "I couldn't give a damn about my belongings, I Want that damn borg rebooted or broken down!"
17:21:25: Reply from-summoner99: He wants to kill me for building, this is all started by him. I have not hunted him, I have done nothing to him. I've flashed him five times at most, beepsky another time. I've arrested him for his attempted murder, Im trying to build
17:23:16: Reply from-fikou: He hit you once with a mop, you flashed him 5 times, grabbed beepsky, bolted airlocks, stripped him and brigged him for 12 minutes. (and as a reminder, the max sentence time is 10 minutes.)
17:24:02: Reply from-summoner99: Fikou, listen, he didn't just 'hit once and grab mop' Look at the text logs and what hes said he wanted to do. Hell ask anyone else like Jay Sullivan who watched this go down. I only put him in jail to stop him from trying to fucking murder me every two seconds.
17:24:10: Reply from-summoner99: I only bolted the escape airlocks to KEEP HIM AWAY.
17:25:49: Reply from-fikou: yes, he said that he wants you rebooted, after you made him unable to play the video game for 12 minutes over being hit once.
17:25:54: Reply from-summoner99: I've spent 30 minutes trying to disengange and he wants to kill me because Im rogue because I wanted to build. I called security, I called humans. I've done everything in my power to not touch him. I don't even want to talk to the guy. I want to build. He has not said law 2 or given any orders.
17:26:01: Reply from-summoner99: THE JAIL WAS JUST NOW BECAUSE HE TRIED TO KILL ME
17:26:22: Reply from-summoner99: The whole 'hitting once' WAS FOURTY MINUTES AGO Fikou
17:26:35: Reply from-summoner99: You are missing the 30 MINUTE GAP of him trying tok ill me before being arrested.
17:27:05: Reply from-summoner99: Im ASIMOV, not security, I could lock him in a fucking closet but I brought him to jail so the lawyer and humans could fix this problem and not me.
17:30:24: Reply from-fikou: he has not once stated the intention to kill you before you arrested him from what i can see. the arrest was when he attacked beepsky that stunned him before.
17:30:47: Reply from-summoner99: I will scroll up and get the log then.
17:32:02: Reply from-fikou: i assume its the one where you hacked beepsky and he said that you need to be shut down?
17:32:46: Reply from-summoner99: Yes, that is the one. The first beepsky was when he hit me with the mop and I flashed him 5 times then cuffed him once I called security. Then I followed him out and he said I was a traitor who "MUST BE SHUT DOWN AND DIE" I tell him to leave as hes a dumb janitor
17:33:50: Reply from-summoner99: [Common] Dustan Hache says, "YOU SEE THIS"#GAIS-22 states, "You can grab him"#Jay Sullivan shoves Dustan Hache!#Jay Sullivan grabs Dustan Hache passively!#[Common] Dustan Hache says, "FUCKING LEVEL 10"#You grab Officer Beepsky passively!#[Common] Dustan Hache says, "THATS EMAG"#[Common] Sandigo Bendford says, "The saftey is just turned off dustan"#The door bolts are down!#x2##[Common] Sandigo Bendford says, "Not necirraly emagged"#[Common] Dustan Hache says, "BORG IS TRAITOR"#[Common] The Automated Announcement System coldly states, "Jebediah Garry has signed up as Quartermaster"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "I hacked Beepsky to arrest you"#GAIS-22 whispers, "I hacked Beepsky to arrest you"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "How is that emagging"#GAIS-22 whispers, "How is that emagging"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "Im a fucking borg"#GAIS-22 whispers, "Im a fucking borg"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "You dumb ass"#GAIS-22 whispers, "You dumb ass"#The mouse squeaks.#You grab the mouse passively!#[Common] Dustan Hache says, "LEVE
17:33:53: Reply from-summoner99: [Common] John Highwayman says, "Yeah level 10 is emag"#[Common] Sandigo Bendford says, "It does the same thing dumbass"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "I can confirm to you I hit the hack button"#GAIS-22 whispers, "I can confirm to you I hit the hack button"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "As Im a engiborg"#GAIS-22 whispers, "As Im a engiborg"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "And I locked oyu in a rooom"#GAIS-22 whispers, "And I locked oyu in a rooom"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "If you hit beepsky"#GAIS-22 whispers, "If you hit beepsky"#[Common] Dustan Hache says, "YOU'"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "I will personally grab you and throw you in a locker with no headset"#GAIS-22 whispers, "I will personally grab you and throw you in a locker with no headset"#[Common] Dustan Hache says, "ARE NOT"#[Common] Dustan Hache says, "ASIMOV"#[Common] GAIS-22 states, "I am"#GAIS-22 whispers, "I am"#[Common] Dustan Hache says, "YOU NEED TO BE SHUT DOWN"#[Common] Sandigo Bendford says, "He is"#[Common] Jay Sullivan says, "Dustin"#[Common] Jay Sull
17:34:11: Reply from-summoner99: Forgot theres a text limit, ugh, I might have to get pastebin out for logs
17:34:19: Reply from-fikou: no need.
17:36:12: Reply from-fikou: alright, basically, flashing someone 5 times and cuffing them over being hit once by a mop is kind of an overreaction for an asimov borg that can just fix themselves in a second. and 12 minute brig sentences certainly should not be done by one. other than that its fine.
17:37:06: Reply from-summoner99: He wasn't even in for 12, he was in for 9. You pmed me when he was only in for 2 minutes at the time. Also, the whole flashing and dragging happened after he himself dragged me around and I asked him multple multiple times to please leave me alone.
17:37:30: Reply from-fikou: you set the timer to 12 minutes, it doesnt matter how long he was in for.
17:38:02: Reply from-summoner99: That is absurd that the complaint is the timer and not how long, at that rate i should of put him in the fucking closet so the magic numbers don't impact his fragile mental state.
17:38:51: Reply from-summoner99: I threw him in brig and hit the arrows multiple times and shut the door till humans/lawyer come, the timer had nothing to do with his stay at all.
17:39:03: Reply from-summoner99: It was just so the door dont randomly open while hes standing around screaming his ears off
17:39:25: Reply from-fikou: as per security rules, "For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins.", you set the timer with the intention of 12 minutes, and if not for other players he probably would have been there for that time.
17:39:35: Reply from-summoner99: Im not secuirty.
17:40:06: Reply from-fikou: you took the same approach as security
17:40:42: Reply from-summoner99: I took the approach of getting the madman out of my hands, throwing security rules on an Asmiov borg for putting him in a timer room is absurd Fikou
17:45:17: Reply from-fikou: you are a non antag brigging a person that does not deserve death, the same as a security officer brigging a person that does not deserve death. i dont see why the rules should be different for these 2 very similar cases. best case scenario would be you getting the prisoner to the captain, security or the acting captain, but if you just throw them in the brig you should at least follow the standard maximum time.
17:46:50: Reply from-summoner99: Listen, Fikou, the last time I've TOUCHED cell doors prior to today there was a 10 minute timer cap. Thats why I pressed it multiple times to close the door. You are literally on my ass for a number, that meant nothing as hes not even in there for that time, saying the cursed "13". There is no securitty, there was no command, the only one who arrived during that entire was the Chief Engineer. I even called on engineering frequency .
17:47:38: Reply from-summoner99: The man was not being killed, not being harmed, I was following ASIMOV and to be honest I went above and beyond to even bother dragging him to the Brig. I could of just let the random assistant drag him into maint after he was gas grenaded like they were planning to do.
17:48:44: Reply from-summoner99: The timer meant nothing at all in the exchange other than to keep the doors closed, I could of thrown him in a locker, or a room, or perma, anywhere. It was a trade-off, I didn't want to be involved and I was going to walk back to escape to finish my construction but you BWOINKED me for the dumb fucks braindead shit.
17:57:34: Reply from-fikou: you shouldnt be setting the timer to 13 or 12, circumstances made that full time not happen, but dont do it again or open a policy thread about it. (also security timers havent changed in like 4 years you could always add more) have a nice day.
17:57:36: Reply from-fikou: Closed by Fikou
---- No futher messages ----
This ticket was generated by Statbus v.0.14.0

As I have said, he was thrown in for 13 minutes and while circumstances made that full time not pass, don't throw people in for 13 minutes, it's that simple.
I don't see why I should lift this note, but you may request a headmin if you wish.

[CMDR_Gungnir]

It may be worth noting that the specific wording of that rule cited about Security Policy is

For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins. Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment.

It doesn't necessarily say that "Setting it above 10 minutes is an immediate rule break" just that it can be ahelped. (If it IS an immediate rule break, then the system should be changed so that you can't set it above 10 minutes, and the rules should mention it)

[Summoner]

I would like an headmin and other administration to look into this.

[Vekter]

You did say "other administration", so.

I would say that Fikou's note is 100% accurate, though it should be updated to give context to the situation as to why you brigged them for as long as you did. Notes have to either be 1) inaccurate or 2) unwarranted to be removed, and neither of these are the case here.

[MrStonedOne]

Preamble: I have not looked at logs and only skimmed thru the replies, so apologies if anything is inaccurate.



I feel like this applies here, but i'm unclear as to how.

Some thoughts: A note thats more about a order or condition they must follow sits this appeal in odd limbo as half of this appeal is about the specific order to not brig for more then 10 minutes as borg, as a condition they have to follow moving forward, but that technically falls under admin complaint. I just dont know if we gain anything by forcing them to make that a seperate thread given the grey area this sits in.

As an asimov borg, brigged a person for 13 minutes, told that is against the rules

The confusing thing here is I don't actually understand this train of thought. The only policy quoted stated they can be actioned. or in other words, if it was 10 minutes or less, the ahelp would have been mostly ignored for not being long enough to bother looking into. I don't think it's meant to imply that sentences over 10 are flat out not allowed.

also...



Said policy doesn't apply to slicons because slicons are not security. (unless they are acting like security or ordered to act like security, see headmin rulings).

We've generally held conflicts that didn't originate from somebody antag hunting (or otherwise valid hunting as a mini-mod version of security) to a looser standard then security is held to, it seems silly to do enforce security policy on a job type that icly is specifically told they are not security and do not care about space law, in a situation where they were the target of other-player-invented conflict that was borderline against the rules (see 1st screenshot).

Closing question: The thread OP implies they were purely removing the floortiles and not the plating, is this accurate? and finally, was the janitor played by somebody who had the hours on the server to know that this was unharmful? (see 1st screenshot)

[dragomagol]

After examining the round in question, we agree with MSO's assessment of the situation that the janitor appears to be violating Silicon Protections 1.4,

As a nonantagonist (human or otherwise), instigating conflict with silicons so you can kill them.

Nowhere that I could see did the janitor order the borg not to continue its work renovating departures, instead giving flimsy reasons to justify the renovations as a direct threat to human safety.

Code: Select all

[2022-01-28 16:52:59.556] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "oh" (Departure Lounge (108,69,2))
[2022-01-28 16:53:08.840] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "and you breached the security office." (Departure Lounge (108,69,2))
[2022-01-28 16:53:14.220] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "that's ALWAYS a good idea." (Departure Lounge (108,69,2))

Code: Select all

[2022-01-28 16:53:32.934] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "excuse me, Maintanance is vital to survival" (Departure Lounge (107,69,2))
[2022-01-28 16:53:39.234] SAY: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) "It is not" (Departure Lounge (104,69,2))
[2022-01-28 16:53:41.415] SAY: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) "Dont try that bull on me" (Departure Lounge (104,69,2))
[2022-01-28 16:53:42.874] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "especially during radiation storms, or depressurization" (Departure Lounge (107,69,2))

After failing to convince the borg to stop, the janitor attempts to pull the borg away, accusing it of being unslaved and insisting that the renovations will cause a "crisis." Only after the janitor hit the borg with a mop did the borg retaliate by flashing the janitor and turning off Beepsky's safeties, to which the janitor screams that the borg was a traitor.

Code: Select all

[2022-01-28 16:59:40.016] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "THATS EMAG" (Aft Maintenance (97,72,2))
[2022-01-28 16:59:48.062] ATTACK: HentaiSatan/(Jay Sullivan) Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) is being stripped of the zipties by HentaiSatan/(Jay Sullivan) (Aft Primary Hallway (107,99,2))
[2022-01-28 16:59:50.503] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "BORG IS TRAITOR" (Aft Primary Hallway (107,98,2))

The janitor returns to departures after some time, where the borg sees him and bolts the doors to keep him out. The janitor attempts to hack in anyway.

Code: Select all

[2022-01-28 17:08:54.527] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "i'm wat" (Departure Lounge (107,69,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:04.813] ATTACK: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) has grabbed *no key*/(Officer Beepsky) passive grab (NEWHP: 45)  (Aft Primary Hallway (107,90,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:05.354] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "what the fuck" (Aft Primary Hallway (108,110,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:09.352] ATTACK: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) has bolted [Departure Lounge] (Departure Lounge (107,71,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:09.554] ATTACK: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) has bolted [Departure Lounge] (Departure Lounge (107,71,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:09.787] ATTACK: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) has bolted [Departure Lounge] (Departure Lounge (107,71,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:11.808] SAY: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) "all the doors are bolted!" (Aft Primary Hallway (107,110,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:12.150] SAY: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) "Dustan" (Departure Lounge (107,71,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:21.732] SAY: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) "Coming in and doing the classic villain monologing is a bit silly" (Departure Lounge (107,71,2))
[2022-01-28 17:09:23.427] ATTACK: Doomlolcat/(Dustan Hache) has temp shocked for 30 seconds [Aft Primary Hallway] (Aft Primary Hallway (107,111,2))

This is where the borg finally has enough and arrests the janitor.

Code: Select all

[2022-01-28 17:14:49.345] SAY: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) "Im done with you Dustin" (Departure Lounge (107,72,2))
[2022-01-28 17:14:50.905] SAY: Summoner99/(GAIS-22) "You rae bineg arrested" (Departure Lounge (107,72,2))

As MSO also points out,

For arrested players, timed sentences up to a total of 10 minutes, buckle-cuffing, and stripping, are considered IC issues and are not actionable by admins. Brig sentences totaling more than 10 minutes can be adminhelped, as can be gulag or perma sentences or a pattern of illegitimate punishment.

We find the note to be both inaccurate (the brigging by itself is not against the rules), and somewhat muddled by dubious behaviour of the janitor.

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... nd-177445/

Headmin Votes:
Dragomagol: Remove note
NamelessFairy: Remove note
RaveRadbury: Remove note