[DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

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[DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629637

Discord username: AtomicSubmarine#6287
Commonly used names: CrudeWax
Banning admin: I believe timberpoes, but I am not completely sure, ban came in a warning citing "The moderation team".
Ban reason: Continues to discuss topics such as childhood trauma and their own molestation despite previous warnings from Hulkamania not to do this. Also discusses their own mental health and urges relating to it as well as some of their own bigoted views on sexuality. These topics are not suited for our Discord and have made other users highly uncomfortable. The moderation team has decided to place a Discord ban as a result of this.
Time ban was placed: Overnight yesterday, 10.02.22
Your side of the story: This is a largely difficult question spanning over a half a year of general behavior in this manner. Specifically the fact I often used /tg/'s politics-containment channel to talk about personal struggles and try and make it somewhat entertaining for the observing parties. It helped me largely before, and continues to help to this day, to hear different opinions and takes on certain matters in this regard. So I think what I got banned for is generally just the things I talked about there on a regular basis, just now it either attracted attention or made someone change their mind.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I think the core issues behind the ban warrant discussion, as instead of it being an occasional blunder it seems to cover just my history of any controversial behavior. I also have quite a few problems with how the ban was issued:
1. No explicit warnings from hulk about this behavior were given, period. There was zero evidence such behavior is punishable or against the rules, in fact, to quote hulk on the "warnings":
no I haven't spoken to him in ages, I didn't do the ban either
2. I did not receive any ability to contact the admins and resolve this issue before the ban, it happened overnight without any input from me or the administration.
3. The ban does not cover any specific rule violation, and instead seems to be just a general jab at my character, mixing both the unexplained "no personal issues" problem and "bigotry" into one package
4. On the bigotry side: we previously resolved the problems of my transphobia with admins present, and several janitorial staff decided it doesn't warrant a ban. Specifically the issue was "I would not personally date a trans woman, though I still respect them as individuals and do not seek making this community worse for them". This would've been a fine standalone ban we could discuss, but this one seems like a pile of separate controversies.
5. What users were made uncomfortable? This was not an issue for people for already about half a year of discussions like this, and I did not understand what specifically tipped the scale this time, so unless it was wrong retroactively over an extensive period of time I do not understand the reason behind the ban.

Why you think you should be unbanned: Suffice to say, I think the problem of discussing personal issues on a public space like this does indeed warrant discussion, but the ban itself is handled very poorly and mixes a lot of unrelated controversies to make a case, instead of citing a specific violation of the rule. I still think the question of "Should you be able to talk about personal issues with the other members of the server?" should remain open, but the ban itself is unfocused and vague in my opinion.
I love the /tg/ community, and the server specifically for allowing a wide range of discussions to be had on it. I am deeply thankful to a lot of members of politics-containment for their input on my issues and they have been a significant contributor to moving towards solving them better, as well as just plain being very friendly and helpful. I think even more intimate personal discussion is overall a positive, given the fact it does little to no harm to the community at large, as the overwhelming majority are not remotely aware of them happening. This is debatable, but I personally believe preserving the wide range of topics one can cover is vital to keeping the community diverse in thought and a good public space, and most administration staff I interacted with have supported that idea.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Hulkamania » #629638

Point of order, that quote is out of context.

I was asked in discord if I pinged crude about this ban, and I said I had not spoken to them in ages. This is not to say I did not warn them in the past about their behavior, which I did many months ago. This isn't my ban so I'm leaving this here as purely informational.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629639

Sorry for misunderstanding. However, can you please clarify when did you warn me about this behavior before?
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Hulkamania » #629641

Looks like it happened September of last year, I specifically told you that the stories you were telling at the time were making people uncomfortable, it was primarily based around your involvement in a "shota discord" and your interaction with members of it.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629642

Those specific ones are long gone and I have not spoken about them since.
I recognize this specific one was relating to semi-pedophilic content and I have decided to not bring it up again.

Also for future admins reading this: There is context here, I wasn't engaging with said content.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by moneyshock » #629650

For reference, it was indeed Timerpoes who issued the ban; here's the audit log for it:
Image
Last edited by RaveRadbury on Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Timberpoes » #629678

I will swing around to this ASAP. I was going to talk to you about it first but you logged off the Discord soon after the incident that brought our attention in and I opted to use the Discord warning bot to communicate the reason to you.

There's a bit to go through so I may take a few hours to research and pen up my response. Sorry for the delays in advance.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629683

Timberpoes wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:06 pm I will swing around to this ASAP. I was going to talk to you about it first but you logged off the Discord soon after the incident that brought our attention in and I opted to use the Discord warning bot to communicate the reason to you.

There's a bit to go through so I may take a few hours to research and pen up my response. Sorry for the delays in advance.
Hey can we maybe talk it out privately due to sensitivity of the topic at hand? If you think it's best to have it on a public forum then it's okay.
Reach me at AtomicSubmarine#6287
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Timberpoes » #629684

CrudeWax wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:42 pm
Timberpoes wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:06 pm I will swing around to this ASAP. I was going to talk to you about it first but you logged off the Discord soon after the incident that brought our attention in and I opted to use the Discord warning bot to communicate the reason to you.

There's a bit to go through so I may take a few hours to research and pen up my response. Sorry for the delays in advance.
Hey can we maybe talk it out privately due to sensitivity of the topic at hand? If you think it's best to have it on a public forum then it's okay.
Reach me at AtomicSubmarine#6287
Of course we can talk it out privately! tl;dr of what I've been told is: "You can answer detailed questions in the appeal or forum DM's"

This creates a paper trail that either side can use to prove what has been said without any fear of doctored screenshots or edits (because edits are tracked and logged too). If you're happy to discuss this stuff over DMs, please feel free to sliiiiide into my inbox on the forums and we'll go from there.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Timberpoes » #629716

Please read this post in full since responses to some of your other questions from our DMs are now baked into this wall of text. There are additional clarifications on points, I've expanded quotes from Hulkamania and Gwyn, added some additional images and some extra context where appropriate to save having to multipost lots of smaller walls of text.

I have taken some minor liberties with quoting parts of your DMs within this post. Also let me know if you have any issues with where I've done that (your quotes are all outside of spoiler tags) and I'll see what I can do to clean that up.


Having had a discussion in forum DMs, CrudeWax has agreed to bring this back to the public discussion and has given me permission to post my responses to them here:
CrudeWax via Forum DM wrote: So what's specifically been behind your research and the question of disguising such topics?
I'll open up about why this was handled the way it was:

By the time discussions below were completed and a decision was made, I took a moment to open up a support ticket channel to discuss things with you. However, you were offline by then. When I asked for further advice on how to go about this, I was informed the warning bot would DM you and that I should place the ban and handle questions about it through an appeal/forum DMs.
Spoiler:
Image
That brings us here!

This is going to be long.

Note: To help formatting and readability, I'll be dropping quotes within spoilers.

So, you were reported to the Discord Jannie team privately by a Discord user for the following comments:
Spoiler:
CrudeWax wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 0876437565
They won't hear any of this.
In fact I shapeshift into someone less desperate and lonely extremly well. It may take mounths for even the slightest cracks to show.
CrudeWax wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 0657341480
Priority is research on what my tarhet women type like
Studying patterns
CrudeWax wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 9405907978
I am aware of everything I am doing.
This is a completely contious choice, weighing all the factors. I am not dumb, I am not psycotic, this is just how I live.
In fact this is WHY I live.
CrudeWax wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 0593319966
Again I need to constantly seek better ways to search for girls in case I am missing something
Three Discord Jannies (DJs) were available at the time to look into it. Myself, Hulkamania and Gwyn.

I felt that these comments were stalkerish in nature and creepy. Gwyn agreed, suggesting giving you a final warning, and I will quote it in full:
Spoiler:
Gwyn wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 6467431455
Yeah we should give him a final warning to keep that sort of talk to mental health professionals I think, to protect people in chat from being disturbed by him and to protect himself from getting the fuck bullied out of him or making shit worse
I think
Hulk commented that it's not explicitly rule breaking but was really fucking weird and could still potentially resulty in a ban.
Spoiler:
Hulkamania wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 3916406795
I'll say this
It isn't exactly against the rules
It's just really fucking weird
I'm not saying he couldn't be banned for it either
While these discussions were ongoing, you then said the following:
Spoiler:
CrudeWax wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 2880029719
My entire life.
I was molested in 11, and began the process right after I had ended the "relationship" being 14
This changed things significantly.

I quoted this message in the discussion and Hulk's response was he had explicitly told you to stop talking about that and that it was not the first time.
CrudeWax via Forum DM wrote: I am still a bit lost on what exactly hulk warned me about.

From his words, it was about shota content, which we have cleared out and I have not spoken about it since. Am I misunderstanding it and was it about something else?
Spoiler:
Hulkamania wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 5799016478
I'm not gonna do anything without having full PC access so I'll leave it to someone else
But I have formally warned him about like
This kind of thing
It was more in reference to him talking about the weird loli discord thing but it was also about his love life obsession and the childhood trauma thing
Either way I'm saying he's already been warned
Gwyn now responded:
Spoiler:
Gwyn wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 8368497714
If he's been warned for exactly this before then yeah he should be banned.
Because he's either not taking it seriously or he doesn't care.
We also commented how another user had been banned for bringing up your abuse history in the past.

This discussion spilled out into general admin team and there were comments on line toeing behaviour that's just barely enough to not be report worthy on its own, along with bigoted comments and other similar weird posts.

It was ultimately decided to ban you, and again I'll quote back-to-back sentences from myself and Hulk:
Spoiler:
https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 2088385637
Ocelot — Yesterday at 11:51 PM
I'll talk to him and place a ban. I'l probably be a little cold, but I think the warning from hulk plus doing it again plus the subject matter of what he's talking about isn't what we want to see here.
Regular Hogan12 — Yesterday at 11:51 PM
Do you want me to ban him because that seems to be the consensus but it has
Okay there
Good
With all three Discord Jannies available to discuss it agreeing on a ban, I opened up a conversation with you via our threads system, but you had since gone offline by the time I got around to that.

In the meantime I went about researching some of your most recent posts to give me a better idea of your post history and your conduct on our Discord. That's when I found the following two posts from within 6 hours of the incident above:
Spoiler:
CrudeWax wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 1492500532
I am not actually homophobic however I have a personal gripe with lesbians
they keep stealing my girlfriends
they like snatch them from the dark while I am not looking
and replace them with skinwalkers
CrudeWax wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 9438695484
I wish.
I wish so strongly.
To strangle the shadows which drive demand if they are male.
It is such a pathologically weird urge I can't even explain it.
The first of these two posts is highly bigoted. Gender and sex are protected characteristics under our anti-bigotry rules.
CrudeWax via Forum DM wrote: The lesbian bigotry is... eeeh? It's satire. In context there was absolutely zero existant bigotry behind it and everyone understood that.
In addition, satirical expression of bigotry is still expressing bigotry. Some rules would be almost unenforcable if the "it was just a joke" defense existed. This is not the first time you've """joked""" about lesbians, with similar """jokes""" about hating lesbians/how lesbians are evil/how funny black lesbians should be kept out of video games since January.

Here are multiple examples of this in your recent posting history:
Spoiler:
Image
The second is a continuation of the creepy trend we had seen regarding Hulk's comments on being warned about your "love life obsession" above. I felt that even in context, these are not the sort of things we want to see discussed on our Discord.

With all that context in hand, when I couldn't immediately contact you I asked for advice on how to proceed based on the additional messages I'd found and the decision was made to issue the warning via our bot and then place the ban in your absence.

Some of these posts are examples of things that arguably could be reportable to Discord's Trust & Safety team. Seeking words of encouragement and advice from strangers on the Internet, especially on a video game Discord, is not the way forward.

The molestation quote above was enough that there were discussions about reporting THAT post to the Discord Trust & Safety team too. I hope that helps emphasise the severity of things.

I'm not going to tell you how to live your life, or preach to you down from above. Many people go to their peers for help making sense of the world. We all have our own demons in our heads to fight off on a daily basis, and support from others can help with that.

However, the topics you discuss about yourself are not the kind of things suitable for our Discord. The random anonymous Internet strangers we get telling you about how terrible the medical professionals you're seeing are and how you need to see better ones are not who you should be listening to either.

Specialist help groups are available, online charities, dedicated forums for the discussion of these topics in a safe and protected area. And real life help from actual medical professionals instead of the armchair psychs of the tgstation Discord.

According to Hulk you'd been warned before against discussing the kind of topics you were discussing and your recent chat history above has veered into bigotry and discussion of your mental health issues. Because you'd already been warned once about parts of this behavioural pattern, I'm extremely hesitant to remove the ban.

Ultimately although all three Discord Jannies discussing it at the time agreed that a ban would be appropriate, because I placed the ban the final burden rests on me. I personally believe the ban is both justified and a proportionate response to what was posted given my research into your history and the additional information about what you were warned for, plus your broader posting history in general.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629718

Sorry, are you okay with continuing this tommorow? It's quite late on my end.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Timberpoes » #629721

CrudeWax wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:52 pm Sorry, are you okay with continuing this tommorow? It's quite late on my end.
Of course. Feel free to post as necessary. I'll respond as soon as I'm available in any event.

At the current moment I'm denying the appeal, however I am going to keep an open mind as to your responses and am willing to change my position based on what you have to say.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629812

A lengthy reply is in order..

Easiest stuff out of the way:
If you do have a concern with me being bigoted against lesbians, I'll drop it, no questions asked, I do not wish to make anyone feel unwelcome in our community and only said those on the basis they can't be confused for actual bigotry, and I am very sorry if anyone has been negatively affected by it. Polcon in general is commonplace for satire involving edge-topics, but I understand that with me mixing serious and non-serious comments, it's fair that someone may think that I genially have it out for lesbians, hence why I won't toe the line.

On hulk's warnings:
Sorry if I misunderstood their scope, I thought he was specifically alluding to the semi-pedophilic content issue, which I dropped the moment he asked, I did not understand that extends to just general discussion of mental issues relating to trauma.

On discussing personal issues:
I don't think that policy is set-in-stone, and maybe we should discuss it further in a policy thread or something akin to it?
I feel like that's still a question to be resolved because that's a pretty wide range of topics people will not be able to discuss, and I am not sure what exact harm does it bring to me or others. In fact, so far it has only helped me.
We also commented how another user had been banned for bringing up your abuse history in the past.
I do not think it's fair to shift the blame over this onto the person who shared the story.
Since firstly, the user in question has been already banned before for making comments not relating to this, so it has little to do with me giving him specific ammunition, and more with the fact he felt it appropriate to shoot.
Secondly, if the argument is "it's for your own good", I had never been negatively affected by someone bringing it up, and I don't think I will be. In fact I was moreso confused than offended when it happened. So far, my interactions with polcon relating to sharing that trauma have been overwhelmingly positive. And if any users feel it is disturbing to them, they are free to voice their concern and I'll drop the topic, like I have done at a few points in the past.

That said..
The latest comments have been overboard in terms of sheer creep factor to them, I wrote them under the influence of a fever and should've been more responsible. I will not go into this territory again, even when discussing this matter, as it stops being questionable pep talk and slips into just 4chan venting bullshit with little-to-no possible positive input other users can have.

I am completely okay with withholding any topics related to trauma before there is a clear policy on how those should be handled.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Timberpoes » #629843

I'll consider your response and chat with some of the other staff about their thoughts. This may take a hot minute though, hopefully a day at most depending on who is available to discuss this with.

Note that talking about personal trauma and issues is ordinarily fine, but the specifics of some of the things you talked about (that I quoted above) are not suitable topics for our game server.

We don't want to see people talk about how they were molested as a kid, or how anyone has a pathological urge to strangle people. Those are the kind of things that end up in the hands or Discord Trust & Safety.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629845

No violent things (especially the strangle comment, it was too edgy) will be said in the future.
Specific comments made that night are not my usual behavior, and even when I touched on topics like this, it has been more nuanced and more a discussion rather than venting.

Take your time.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Timberpoes » #629877

Discussions are still ongoing.

A big concern was not only how often you engaged in this kind of discussion, but the perception that you take pride in it too. You seem to go out of your way to maximise how edgy you are.

Yes there's examples of where you've said you need help, but then examples like this where you seem to be taking pride and revelling in the edginess of what you're saying.:
Spoiler:
CrudeWax wrote: https://discord.com/channels/3268221442 ... 9405907978
I am aware of everything I am doing.
This is a completely contious choice, weighing all the factors. I am not dumb, I am not psycotic, this is just how I live.
In fact this is WHY I live.
Obviously being edgy or taking pride in things isn't bannable or even directly a break of the rules at all.

But posting things like the above tends to hint that you quite enjoy the attention your problems, personal life and jokes/"""jokes""" get you. Which is fine, but our Discord server is not the place to discuss such topics. And it doesn't speak of a person too invested in the change we'd want to see to your posting habits and discussion topics.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629889

Yes, I did ocassionaly joke about my issues, I found it a part of the "culture" to sometimes allude to notorious aspects of my personality.
However usually that is very mild and subtle, never on the scale on things said in that conversation.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by Timberpoes » #629900

Personal issues really should not be fobbed off as a part of polcon "culture". You are responsible for your own posting in all of our channels, polcon definitely included.

Our Discord is not a therapy chamber. It is also not the place to air out all the skeletons in your closet. Those subjects made other participants uncomfortable at best and are WELL out of the scope of what we expect on our Discord.

The admin team are not therapists or mental health professionals either, nor are we able to moderate any advice you're given with how to deal with your skeletons. These issues are best escalated to people whom have mental health training, and that's not us.

You have been warned before. Your history of posting is as vast as it is deep. The monumental seriousness of the issues involved in your posting is something I cannot emphasise highly enoguh. I still think there's a significant risk you will repeat this again in the future. I am not willing to gamble on that risk. And I don't think it's fair to subject all the other Discord users to that risk either.

For all these reasons about and for other reasons outlined in my substantive response to this appeal, I am rejecting it. The ban duration is permanent, although I assume may be re-appealed in a year.
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Re: [DISCORD] CrudeWax (AtomicSubmarine)

Post by CrudeWax » #629901

Unfortunate.
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