[Shaps] Massa100 - erroneous medbay execution

[massa]

BYOND account: Massa100
Character name: Julia Toolbox
Ban type: sec jobban
Ban length: 3 days
Ban reason: Banned from Roles: Head of Security, security, Warden, Detective, Security Officer for 3 days - As a detective, wrongfully murdered and decapitated a crewmember on bad assumptions. Massa ordered a set of thermal pistols in cargo, went to pick it up, saw an empty thermal pistol crate with the QM's fingerprints on it (the QM had bought their own pistols), didn't check the console or ask the QM about them and went straight for batoning them. QM pulled out their pistols to defend themselves, at which point Massa batoned them again (fully stunning the QM) and dumped 7 shots with 2 guns into their head, decapitating them. Didn't verify they were the culprit, and left them round removed
Time ban was placed: 2017-04-28 21:42:36
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil (my beloved)
Round ID in which ban was placed: 179963
Your side of the story: I ordered a crate of thermal pistols as the detective. They never came, so I went to cargo to check them out. I saw 3 empty holsters on the ground and a cracked open crate. A single cracked open crate. I scanned it for prints, found one set, Feasel Easel's. I set him to arrest, went searching, and found him in medical. At this point I have probable cause and a trail of logic identifying a heavily armed culprit who I believed stole a shipment marked for security.
Bonk with a batong, the funny man unzips his blue revolver. This individual, while I was in full uniform conducting a nonlethal arrest with a non lethal stun weapon drew a lethal firearm in return. So, as he collapsed, I grabbed the gun and unloaded it into his head. The gun he was just about to use on me. My intention here was to crit him, definitely not kill or 'round remove' him. Nonetheless, I was well within my rights to summarily execute him for drawing a lethal weapon during an arrest, and I was, as a sec officer, VERY much justified in the arrest/attempted confiscation. Security is allowed to make mistakes. Executing someone for drawing lethals is the right response, and I'm still treating it as an unintentional error. The 'major' issue here is that his head popped off after 7 shots, which I didn't think it'd do. He was in medical so it's not like any of this wasn't a quick fix, either. Most weaponry in this game takes a good while of beating a corpse to remove its head, but his came off before he was even dead. My experience with these pistols is somewhat limited as I don't really feel the need to use them often, so I wasn't intimate with their head removal abilities.
At no point were my actions overtly negligent, excessively out of pocket or unreasonable, nor was my behavior in bad faith. I was playing my role as security, having come to a logical conclusion with probable cause and concrete evidence to start an arrest based on the current circumstances. Security is allowed to use lethal force if someone draws a lethal themselves. In fact, I am utterly shocked that someone carrying multiple firearms from a broken open crate had the audacity to ahelp for being killed after he drew one of those firearms. As a non antagonist, being arrested by a uniformed member of security. At that point, he was dead in medical with the CMO on one side and a doctor on the other. I skipped on out of there after confiscating the guns, and I was also held accountable for 'not ensuring his revival'. Not sure what more I can do when the dude is in medbay with the CMO and a doctor next to him. Sec comms were active and I had to go help out because multiple tiders were literally killing fellow seccies. Shortly after this I did indeed find the HoS critted and a dead officer next to one such tider. I was busy, had a lot of shit I was paying attention to, and had greys down my throat half the time trying to steal my shit (and succeeding sometimes). It was an active, violent shift and I didn't have time to ensure the very not busy medical staff revived the guy who drew a gun on me. Not sure why I'm being held accountable for not 'ensuring his revival' or 'leaving them round removed' in MEDBAY surrounded by doctors. Like, that's it. It's in the rules, bring them to medbay lol. I can't do more. This player is not my responsibility and I killed them for clear reason.

I don't know what "did not verify they were the culprit" is about either. I had his prints on a crate of looted guns, set him to arrest. That's the culprit. What's more, he drew one. Like, sorry, at this point there's no misidentifying culprits.

Why you think you should be unbanned: While I may have been heavy handed, my behavior here follows every step of logic and good faith you can have as security. I had prints. There was 1 crate, and I ordered 1 crate. Feasel insisted to both myself and the admin that he ordered those on his own. Which doesn't really change much either way. Security is allowed to confiscate weapons, thermal pistols are particularly dangerous. But I was operating under the very reasonable assumption that the one thermal crate I ordered was the one that got cracked open, and the guy who opened it was armed, dangerous and at large. He was armed and at large.

I did not only have reasonable suspicion that these weapons could be used against me and knew the person carrying them. One was DRAWN on me, and I responded with lethal force.
References of good conduct:
Anything else we should know: This is an IC issue involving the messiness of a roleplaying game. Nothing more. The fact I got noted for this is weird. Things are not cut and dry, people make mistakes, and the game itself lends to deception, betrayals, framings, and messy mistakes. However, I acted with a clear train of logic, again, with probable cause and support from the game's own escalation policies and IC context clues to the best of my ability.

[Feasel]

Hope I'm not treading any rules but I was directly involved in the situation. By being the victim of said execution.

What had happened that round was I wanted to spice things up and actually be pro-active in selling stuff. I had already gotten a private purchase for one of my favorite gun packs (Thermal Pistols) and so it dawned on me. What if I sold each gun for 500 creds per, meaning I'd clock at 2,000 credits when the crate is like around 1,400-1,500. It was like a lightbulb going off in my head so I went to doing the gimmick, which was even further exemplified when the Captain decided to purchase the Luxury shuttle.

I had stolen /NO/ thermal pistols. I had private purchased /EVERY/ single thermal pistol that I had. The detective in question had /NEVER/ asked me once about the crate that was "missing" nor had anyone in security question me, even the HOS was ignoring me and let me sell my stuff throughout the /ENTIRE/ round.

The incident in medbay was when I was leaving Cargo to directly broadcast as a salesman that I was selling some of my goodies when the detective in question wordlessly batons me while wearing gear that didn't look like Security at first glance. It was not red. Nor did I see anything that matched sec on the sprite other than the helmet as I was talking to someone about a sale I was lining up. So of course, thinking I was being attacked by a non-sec since they were not red or whatnot, had pulled out my gun. I got hit for the 2nd time and was in stamina crit and the fight was over.

Now. You'd think I'd be cuffed and all that. But no. She decided to blow my brains out in medical, drag my body away from my brain, and let people run off with said brain. I was almost forcibly borged until I got my story out, with the same detective giving false evidence because once again. I had stolen /NO/ thermal pistol crates.

Stressing again. I was never contacted at all about a missing crate, nor did I know any was missing. The HOS had directly ignored my presence nor had anyone notified me about an issue. I was suddenly baton'd in medbay while we all had a virus that was causing trippy screens and whatnot. The Detective in question was colored blue, not red, and the only signifying item I could see on first glance when I was wordlessly baton'd was the riot helmet.

All of this could've been avoided by a simple PDA or asking on comms or a quick point spam and going, "OI. We're missing X or Y"

I never got to recover my original body, nor did I get to recover any of my items like my ID and more. Julia and Co and stolen all of my items. I last saw my body being dragged off to Security and kept away from Medical. I had searched the morgue trays and it was not there. My round was pretty much utterly ruined. All because I was not contacted and was wordlessly baton'd.

TLDR: I stole nothing, private purchased everything. I was not contacted about a missing crate, never knew. Was wordlessly attacked in medbay while HOS was ignoring me, Detective was not Security identifiable by sprite due to color change. I was in stamina critical and cuffable but instead had brains blown out. Detective hid my body somewhere in a mini security area and looted everything, to my knowledge, and I was almost forcibly borged. Round Ruined.

[massa]

I had stolen /NO/ thermal pistols. I had private purchased /EVERY/ single thermal pistol that I had. The detective in question had /NEVER/ asked me once about the crate that was "missing" nor had anyone in security question me, even the HOS was ignoring me and let me sell my stuff throughout the /ENTIRE/ round.

This is correct, this is why my post was framed from my contextual/IC perspective: I saw one crate. I didn't see any other activity in cargo almost at all, besides the coming and going of miners. My perception and understanding, at this time, was that these items were stolen. I must have missed the business about you selling them on comms because I probably would have left you completely alone, or asked about the crate. Instead, I continued under the assumption that you had stolen them and were 'at large' as I said. Because this was the information I had access to, and missing every little green piece of text when you're almost constantly swamped by greys isn't unthinkable.
As I was working under the assumption you were potentially dangerous, there was no shot in hell I was going to tell you I was with the PD or announce my intentions. That's a crackhead take and expectation. Security baps potential threats with batongs.

The incident in medbay was when I was leaving Cargo to directly broadcast as a salesman that I was selling some of my goodies when the detective in question wordlessly batons me while wearing gear that didn't look like Security at first glance. It was not red. Nor did I see anything that matched sec on the sprite other than the helmet as I was talking to someone about a sale I was lining up. So of course, thinking I was being attacked by a non-sec since they were not red or whatnot, had pulled out my gun. I got hit for the 2nd time and was in stamina crit and the fight was over.

I never got to recover my original body, nor did I get to recover any of my items like my ID and more. Julia and Co and stolen all of my items. I last saw my body being dragged off to Security and kept away from Medical. I had searched the morgue trays and it was not there. My round was pretty much utterly ruined. All because I was not contacted and was wordlessly baton'd.

Riot uniform is squarely black, up and down. It conceals the underside of one's uniform, but is extremely identifiable as a security officer regardless. I had sechuds under it, and my ID was presented. I came at you with a baton in a public place. No one responded to this act from me, which they would have if I was a grey, or anyone but security. I will continue to insist this is an IC issue, because from your perspective, you did nothing wrong. Or very little. So, if I've gone into medbay in pursuit of a dangerous criminal, and I'm in a public place and the crew has made their disdain for "shitsec" very clear, why would I take chances? You drew your weapon, announcing your intention to kill me, the detective, the very instant I confronted you. That's it dude. That's the conclusion. There's no going anywhere from there, you get killed for that. Anyone does.
I stole your guns and only your guns, and I had to get the fuck out of medbay and respond immediately to threats and issues. Your shit was stored in the medical security checkpoint and the doctors had your head. They were stored in the open, too, as the evidence locker was one I couldn't move, and the red locker was one I couldn't unlock. I TRIED to preserve your shit and aggregate it to one tile/container for your ease but couldn't, and had to go. Eventually, I was just having a long conversation with Shaps, and was basically checked out of the round as he and I talked about the situation and the virus killed me slowly. I definitely didn't intend to steal your shit, don't know where it went, and didn't want it stolen. I wanted you back up on your feet with your shit. I'm sorry it played out this way, but this game is much messier than you're giving me credit for. I was heavy handed, yes, I regret(ted, both) the removal of your head, but you still have no room to complain when you brandished a lethal weapon during a thoroughly valid arrest.

Now. You'd think I'd be cuffed and all that. But no. She decided to blow my brains out in medical, drag my body away from my brain, and let people run off with said brain. I was almost forcibly borged until I got my story out, with the same detective giving false evidence because once again. I had stolen /NO/ thermal pistol crates.

Yes, I shot and killed you. I didn't intend to kill you, but I wasn't very bothered if it did end up happening, because we were in medbay, and you just brandished a weapon with the intent to use it. Dunno who ran off with your brain, your head was on the floor in medical. Your body's loot was dragged to medbay sec station so I could sort out the massive pile of guns I couldn't carry/juggle.

Stressing again. I was never contacted at all about a missing crate, nor did I know any was missing. The HOS had directly ignored my presence nor had anyone notified me about an issue. I was suddenly baton'd in medbay while we all had a virus that was causing trippy screens and whatnot. The Detective in question was colored blue, not red, and the only signifying item I could see on first glance when I was wordlessly baton'd was the riot helmet.

All of this could've been avoided by a simple PDA or asking on comms or a quick point spam and going, "OI. We're missing X or Y"

I will not contact the QM whose prints are on the only busted open thermal pistol crate (something that has to be broken open and requires armory access. Access to that place you can be remorselessly killed with no recourse by the security staff for simply entering.) In all of cargo, that I, like I said, naturally and logically assumed was the one security ordered, because it was the only one there, and I ordered it like forever ago. That's like the opposite of what I'm supposed to do. Logically. If you're armed, there's probably a reason, and you're probably even more armed. No, as a security officer, I will not warn a suspect when my only opportunity to not die comes from surprise.
Again, you're acting like I'm lying, when in reality I was operating under the context I had at the moment that was clear to me, and the common logic that underpins most of security's actions. This is an IC issue that was flush with the rules, and became messy due to a confluence of factors from the round and a lack of clarity in our paranoia laden spaceman game. I'm not a real life cop. I'm not going to announce who I am and warn you. Even so, I was still within my right to confiscate these weapons or at least search you. And that was my intention off rip, to search you. You're the one who drew lethals, and I still maintain I only intended to crit you. Your head came off after a few hasty clicks in the moment.

TLDR: I stole nothing, private purchased everything. I was not contacted about a missing crate, never knew. Was wordlessly attacked in medbay while HOS was ignoring me, Detective was not Security identifiable by sprite due to color change. I was in stamina critical and cuffable but instead had brains blown out. Detective hid my body somewhere in a mini security area and looted everything, to my knowledge, and I was almost forcibly borged. Round Ruined.

You stole nothing but you still were carrying a shitload of notoriously lethal weapons and that was grounds enough to confiscate/search/arrest. You drew. The drugged effect from the virus you had in you made you make a wrong call and you drew your gun. I responded that wrong call 1:1. I didn't hide your shit, I left it there because I had to go, and I didn't come back to sort it out because I was resigned to answering the ahelp at that point.

I even explained IC, to you, in person, my logic, apologized for what happened, and especially the decapitation, once I could (I think it was in the MMI). This was an ugly confluence of shitty IC circumstances and a particularly heavy handed decision that was still within the rules made by another player. This happens to me all the fucking time.

[Pandarsenic]

Hope I'm not treading any rules but I was directly involved in the situation. By being the victim of said execution.

Anyone directly involved in the incident is able to post in the thread, as I thiiink are ghosts who were watching, etc., if they believe they have information that was overlooked and should be considered.

You can use https://atlantaned.space/banbus/mytickets if you wish to make a ticket's correspondence public, but this is pretty much never required.

[Feasel]

Massa. Privately bought crates of the armory department will open /WITHOUT/ armory access. Because the unlock is tied to the PURCHASER ID. That means you couldn't open it even with armory because you needed MY ID.

2ndly. The crates were not busted into because. If I emag'd them, the red+greenlight on the crate would be destroyed. If they were purchased by the computer in sec, I cannot open them EVEN WITH A BORG, until I have the crate in that exact spot. If you destroyed a crate through busting the lock with a sharpened fireaxe, the red and green light on the crate would be destroyed.

You've made a horrible and extremely uninformed decision that once again. Could've been easily rectified by talking to me.

The HOS was with me when I was selling the guns. He didn't question me. No one in Security actually bothered to ask me. Only you baton'd. You then proceeded to hard execute me when I was already capturable then dragged my body away from my brain, which as I know from my own notes, is a notable offence because you're practically round removing me in quite a few situations.

You could've taken measures to secure a valid reasoning for the full butchering of my round if I escalated, specially when once again. Your security team was ignoring me.

The fact that you apologize to me ingame then try to appeal here by stating that I was completely in the wrong when you were probably informed by the admin in question is just highly insulting to what you put me through.

Now. For the debate about the sprite. I couldn't tell if I'm being wordlessly attacked in medbay by a sprite that's dark blue instead of black + red by a Security officer. And why would I assume it's the Detective when their job is to you know. Investigate. Literally your job is to question me, not blow my brains out when I'm in a detainable state then drag my body off to loot with other officers or whoever and never let me have some semblance of my round back.

[massa]

Yeah this situation could have been avoided if I spoke to you directly. Most situations would play out dramatically differently if people do different things and announce their intentions.

However, I didn't, for the reasons already explained. I killed you for drawing lethals during a valid arrest. You were in medbay, very revivable, and I took the guns and left. I am not the HoS keeper nor do I telepathically know his approval. Your guns were not discussed on sec comms, I already said I didn't see you announcing it on comms proper.

I had this slim context a shady QM that I was going to arrest, who immediately responded with greater violence than I myself was presenting. That was valid reasoning for the butchering secured. I didn't "put you through" anything besides lamely dying, which is almost a constant. I apologized in game because what I did was violent and in hindsight, uncalled for. In the moment, my decision was utterly fine and warranted. One is a matter of manners, politeness, and consideration of another player and their feelings. This is a matter of having a shitty note I don't want on my account with multiple erroneous, damning details that are incorrect, regardless of whether I killed you or not.

I don't know shit about cargo, then. Not sure why the fuck cargo can legally order and open lethals lol. I've played for a shitload of time and never known that or seen that. But cool, you had lethals acquired via a different means than I had assumed from the clues present. You drew them during an arrest. I've got a shit ton of time on this game and never knew that cargo could properly open lethal weaponry without security access. That's fucking insane to me, and I just kind of assumed they were busted open. I have literally never seen this, and when cargonians are armed it's ALWAYS because they emittered a box or something. But hey, if you draw your concealed carry on a cop irl you still get shot.

Sorry about how things played out but from an IC/in game perspective, besides I suppose my lack of knowledge in something I've never seen despite 10 years of gameplay, I didn't really do anything unreasonable. You still had guns! I knew who you were, and I was coming to search and question. You drew the guns, this told me that you were actively and intentionally a threat, and I used them. You didn't die for the guns, you died for drawing them, again, with my primary intention being to crit and secure you. Your head came off before you died.

You ever seen an arrest happen in medbay or a public hallway? Lynchings and tide are almost an instant guarantee, with an escaped suspect a quick result of that.

[Feasel]

You took more than my guns. You ran off with my body, gear, and more. Medbay didn't have my body to revive me. You took it into the Security Corner where then it was hidden or just removed. My brain was picked up by non-medical because they heard your erronious call and thought I was just a valid. I had /0/ reason to be executed if I was cuffable, along with being in STAMINA CRIT, and at that time we didn't have any major threats to my knowledge. You had already won the fight. You just decided to continue without talking at all.

Now. Cargo for quite a long while could privately buy guns for atleast a few months or longer. This mechanic is pretty core to Cargo's experience because it's mostly to encourage people who have credits to actually spend it because they could get some actual goodies. It does almost double the price but the freedom on what you could order is worth the cost as that round had proved since I was able to afford atleast a couple of the crates, main reason I had that many on me.

"As a detective, wrongfully murdered and decapitated a crewmember on bad assumptions. Massa ordered a set of thermal pistols in cargo, went to pick it up, saw an empty thermal pistol crate with the QM's fingerprints on it (the QM had bought their own pistols), didn't check the console or ask the QM about them and went straight for batoning them. QM pulled out their pistols to defend themselves, at which point Massa batoned them again (fully stunning the QM) and dumped 7 shots with 2 guns into their head, decapitating them. Didn't verify they were the culprit, and left them round removed"

As a note, looks on point to me. You didn't check the console, guess admin saw it on the console. You saw my crate that I had opened for a quick sale in medbay or two, didn't pay attention that the lock was private buy with the paper nearby or in the crate. You didn't bother to talk, literally would've instantly solved the issue and somewhat the ideal route for security to have clear escalational rights. You took my body away from medical and the fact it was gone for the round would've round removed me except for a guy wanting to borg me, probably thinking I was a tot with your bad story.

And finally, the new policies to my knowledge allow you to get bonked if you take the body away from medical's hands. I have a fat note on my account because when I had been justified for my self-defense and repeated dealings with said individual, I had sent his head to medical but I had gibbed the body. This likely to guaranteedly round removed him from policy's viewpoints and as such, I accepted the note and would not have contested it.

[Pandarsenic]

For clarity, wouldn't the QM's prints be on all the crates they took off of the shuttle in the same shipment?

[massa]

snip

None of this matters and I don't really know why I went to the lengths I did in the OP to explain myself.

I had reason to suspect you had a shitload of guns because your prints were all over the boxes. Private purchase or not, security is well within rights to confiscate these things. When I went up to you in uniform with my ID presented for a search and seizure based on this probable cause, which was within my capabilities and rights as a member of the security staff, you retaliated by drawing a lethal weapon. You broadcasted your intent to kill, and for some reason you expected kumbayah. This is an escalation, you chose violence and received it, per the verbiage of this game's own escalation policy. If you choose to respond with violence, the bets are off. You brandished the weapon. I didn't steal or hide your body, and I'm not responsible for your head being stolen after I had to run out. Sorry, I left your body in medbay and your head, and the CMO saw it all go down. Nothing was hidden or displaced or dislocated by me, and I had no intentions of depriving of your return to life. I only took your guns and I left all your shit in plain view but secure in the medbay sec checkpoint, because you were stripped and searched for evidence, dude. Private purchase or not it makes no difference, a weapon is a weapon.

The fact that there's a note for this at all is insane. The fact that you managed to note me while your defense lies primarily on the fact you were not only carrying weapons, but distributing them, is even worse, yet somehow I get pegged for it. As security it is MY FUCKING JOB TO INVESTIGATE AND RESOLVE IT. I FOUND YOUR PRINTS. I FOUND YOU. These kinds of situations, large quantities of quickly dangerous weapons in the public, are like, textbook security shit, dude. You played arms dealer, the cops came sniffing, and you chose to fight. Welcome to the streets, I guess? Selling or just staying strapped, we had reason to confront you and your retaliation only solidified it.

There is rarely such a thing as "self defense" against security as a non-antagonist when security is arresting you for a legitimate reason.

"As a detective, wrongfully murdered and decapitated a crewmember on bad assumptions. Massa ordered a set of thermal pistols in cargo, went to pick it up, saw an empty thermal pistol crate with the QM's fingerprints on it (the QM had bought their own pistols), didn't check the console or ask the QM about them and went straight for batoning them. QM pulled out their pistols to defend themselves, at which point Massa batoned them again (fully stunning the QM) and dumped 7 shots with 2 guns into their head, decapitating them. Didn't verify they were the culprit, and left them round removed."

As a detective you were rightfully murdered and accidentally decapitated on the killing blow unintentionally. The rest was correct, I didn't check the consoles and I didn't ask the person I suspected of being armed and dangerous if they were armed and dangerous. The QM then pulled out their pistol to defend themselves with lethal force during a legitimate arrest being carried out by security staff with non lethal tools in a public place, and then got shot in the face with the aforementioned pistol. I did verify that you were the culprit, given your prints were all over the empty crate of guns and that you decided to pull one on me. I did not leave you round removed, I left you in medbay in full sight of numerous doctors and the CMO, who followed me every step of the way.

I didn't kill you for having guns and you know this. I killed you for drawing a lethal weapon on me during an arrest. Sorry about the shit with your head and body, but this game is fucking messy and I followed that part of the unnatural medbay policy to the best of my ability under the circumstances, between the violence, non-stop Terry level tide, the disease, and the other sec staff calling for nearly constant help, you STILL had a textbook situation in which you were in medical with all the goodies after being justifiably killed. This shit is not cut and dry, it is not convenient, and it is not easy. This is an IC issue. Literally. I didn't see any sort of weapon crate in medical, either. I was tracking a pinpointer, not casing the joint.

@pandar, there was only one crate in all of cargo when I went in to search.

Also, for the record, I continue to stress 'in uniform' and 'with my ID displayed' because that was a large part of the ahelps. The supposed lack of identification as sec. I was not blue, I was a normal color. This person was tripping on space drugs (literally, we all had a virus), wearing a full suit of riot gear. Hard to like, not be a cop.

[Feasel]

You called me valid infront of the docs and it took an Engineer to almost forcibly get me borged to be in the round in a fractured state. You decided to blow my brains out when on Tram, every department has a miniture security brig to sort things out and now you had the tools to handle shitters with what was purchased by me.

Don't lie that it was just the space drugs because you were colored dark blue even POST DEATH. You were colored off-the security colors, in almost dark for your armor that makes it harder to tell it's riot. The only recognizable thing I saw was the helmet but wordlessly batonning me right next to the HOS who was ignoring that I was "wanted" and that I "stole" the guns then executing me is quite bullshit when you could've cuffed when I was in stamina critical. You won the fight.

People are not going to shift-examine when they're wordlessly baton'd mid-typing a salespitch to Doctor. They're going to react what they saw on screen and I saw no security colors, you were re-colored. When you looted my body while declaring me valid for a crime I never committed, you'd have seen that I didn't steal anything that round. You'd have seen that I didn't have sec-huds to tell by a simple glance. You'd have seen that I didn't have sec headset that you could've poked me or rectified. I had stayed in my lane and you decided to murder and round remove me based off a hunch. You took /0/ effort to make sure I was in a revivable state. You gave me a blank, "I'm sorry" then gave 0 qualms.

I'm still going to stress this. As the role about Investigating and that's by the communities eyes, not a full security officer, you had failed to do anything in your capacity. You had failed the investigation because of bias and being ignorant of mechanics. You have failed the role by not questioning the guy when that's part of your job and you have failed the department and it's protections by going for a "well-intentioned accident" perma kill on a non-antagonist who'd not have escalated enough by policy.

All of Security but you had ignored me and didn't bother. I'd stress that part again. The HOS was right next to me and could've asked but probably knew that my guns in someform were valid to my possession.

This all could've been avoided had you just. Asked. That's all it took. Just a little roleplay of hitting a T and entering a PDA message and I'd have complied but instead you thought you could use I think it's a subcategory of rule 4. Turns out I'm not rule 4 worthy because I was a non-antagonist and the bad call was made.

[Timberpoes]

Just using this as a scratchpad.

Spoiler:

23:51:21 & 00:05:56 - Some of riastlin's thermal pistols orders were shipped to the station.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... cargo.html

Code: Select all

23:51:21 [0x201e1df] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #4103 (Thermal Pistol Crate, placed by riastlin/(Feasel Easel)), paid by Feasel Easel has shipped.
00:05:56 [0x201e1df] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #4104 (Thermal Pistol Crate, placed by riastlin/(Feasel Easel)), paid by Feasel Easel has shipped.

00:06:15 - massa100 placed an order for Thermal Pistols.
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/sybil/ ... 3/tgui.log (tgui logs are admin-only)

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:06:15.389] massa100 (as Julia Toolbox at 84,163,3) in tgui-window-1
 - Using: /obj/machinery/computer/department_orders/security [0x2009624]
 - Action: order {"id":"/datum/supply_pack/security/armory/thermal"}

SEQUENCE BREAK - 00:36:07 - massa100's order was actually shipped after all these events transpired, much later on.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... cargo.html

Code: Select all

00:36:07 [0x201e1df] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #4105 (Thermal Pistol Crate, placed by massa100/(Julia Toolbox)), paid by nobody (department order) has shipped.

00:21:04 - massa runs some prints by the AI in the cargo bay.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 3/game.txt

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:21:04.268] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "AI check prings 36882ba" (Cargo Bay (171,141,3))

00:22:36 - The medbay incident happened, with the last shot dropping them to [-33.4HP] when the dismemberment happened.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... attack.txt

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:22:36.132] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has stun attacked Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Medbay Central (119,102,3))
snip...
[2022-03-15 00:22:50.370] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: -9.4)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:50.372] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet (NEWHP: -9.4)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:51.054] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: -33.4)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:51.057] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet (NEWHP: -33.4)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:51.058] ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Dismemberment Wound to head (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:51.068] ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has died (BRUTE: 37.2, BURN: 42, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0) (Medbay Central (118,95,3))

00:23:14 - Within the next 20 seconds, their brain was being toyed with by Bloocki99 the Chemist who then discarded it.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... nifest.txt
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... attack.txt

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:23:14.962] ATTACK: Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) has attacked Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) with Feasel Easel's brain (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 29.7)  (Medbay Central (118,96,3))
[2022-03-15 00:23:20.856] ATTACK: Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) has attacked Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) with Feasel Easel's brain (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 29.7)  (Medbay Central (118,96,3))
[2022-03-15 00:23:22.404] ATTACK: Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) has attacked Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) with Feasel Easel's brain (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 29.7)  (Medbay Central (118,96,3))
[2022-03-15 00:23:23.442] ATTACK: Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) has attacked Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) with Feasel Easel's brain (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 29.7)  (Medbay Central (118,96,3))
[2022-03-15 00:23:30.859] ATTACK: Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) has thrown Feasel Easel's brain  (Medbay Central (117,99,3))

00:23:50 - While massa presumably took the body to the medbay sec outpost to search it
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... attack.txt

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:23:50.939] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) *no key*/(Feasel Easel) is being stripped of the loader MOD control unit by Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) (Security Post - Medbay (136,108,3))
[2022-03-15 00:23:51.934] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) *no key*/(Feasel Easel) is being stripped of the thermal shoulder holsters by Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) (Security Post - Medbay (136,108,3))
[2022-03-15 00:23:55.981] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) *no key*/(Feasel Easel) has been stripped of the pocket crowbar by Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) (Security Post - Medbay (136,108,3))
[2022-03-15 00:23:56.263] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) *no key*/(Feasel Easel) has been stripped of the flashlight by Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) (Security Post - Medbay (136,108,3))
[2022-03-15 00:23:56.708] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) *no key*/(Feasel Easel) has been stripped of the thermal shoulder holsters by Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) (Security Post - Medbay (136,108,3))
[2022-03-15 00:24:02.865] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) *no key*/(Feasel Easel) has been stripped of the loader MOD control unit by Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) (Security Post - Medbay (136,108,3))

00:25:51 - riastlin's brain was inserted into an MMI by Nian and they were back talking again soon after that. A bit of back-and-forth arguing happens between the two of them over comms (not included below, but available in logs)
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 3/game.txt

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:25:51.204] GAME: Nianjiilical/(Ramon Chivara) has put the brain of Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) into an MMI at Research Division (165,101,3)
[2022-03-15 00:25:53.620] SAY: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) "WHAT THE FUCK" (Research Division (165,101,3))

00:31:45 - Not long after ristalin was inserted into a new humanized-monke-body.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 3/game.txt

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:31:46.787] GAME: *no key*/(Feasel Easel) *no key*/(Feasel Easel) is no longer owning mob Feasel Easel(/mob/living/brain) (UNKNOWN (?, ?, ?))
[2022-03-15 00:31:46.787] ACCESS: Mob Login: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) was assigned to a /mob/living/carbon/human/species/monkey
[2022-03-15 00:31:46.799] GAME: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) Client Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) has taken ownership of mob Kassidy Nicholas(/mob/living/carbon/human/species/monkey) (Robotics Lab (158,98,3))

00:33:13 & 00:35:31 - A few minutes later riastlin was revived and was talking soon after that.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 3/game.txt

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:33:13.228] EMOTE: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) gasps! (Medbay Treatment Center (122,97,3))
[2022-03-15 00:35:31.409] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "I think so" (Medbay Treatment Center (124,99,3))

00:44:14.806 - And finally riastlin and massa meet up and have a full on IC conversation about the incident providing a lot of context in to what went down.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... 3/game.txt

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:44:14.806] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "Where the fuck is my body" (Medbay Lobby (126,108,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:18.872] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "which body" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,102,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:20.280] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "are you feasel" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,102,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:20.318] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "And my ID" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,103,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:21.572] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "one moment" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,102,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:21.726] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "FEASELS" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,103,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:22.424] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "YES" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,103,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:24.519] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "oh" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,102,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:24.825] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "shit" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,102,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:25.336] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "my bad" (Medbay Treatment Center (125,102,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:44.400] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "no idea" (Medbay Central (133,106,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:50.878] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "morgue" (Medbay Central (130,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:51.524] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "maybe" (Medbay Central (129,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:51.921] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "No" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:53.775] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "It's gone" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:56.120] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "I didn't steal it" (Medbay Central (129,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:57.546] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "My ID and everything" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:44:57.836] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "I left it here" (Medbay Central (130,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:02.580] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "MY GUNS GOT STOLEN AND EVERYTHING" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:04.416] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "there were a shitload of doctors" (Medbay Central (129,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:06.333] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "I was working so hard." (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:09.413] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "I am sorry" (Medbay Central (129,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:14.302] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "it was a bit heavy handed I was trying to crit you" (Medbay Central (129,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:15.651] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "and your head jut" (Medbay Central (129,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:18.421] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "flew off" (Medbay Central (129,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:23.651] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "it was definitely not intentional" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:27.304] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "it was like the 4th or 5th shot" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:29.293] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "Why did you just not contact me" (Medbay Central (128,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:41.385] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "because I assumed you were up to nefarious things and the first batong wins" (Medbay Central (130,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:43.658] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "Literally I was selling. I had no knowledge of a stolen crate" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:46.533] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "I shot because you drew lethals" (Medbay Central (130,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:52.086] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "not really for the gun itself" (Medbay Central (130,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:45:53.680] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "I couldn't tell you're sec" (Medbay Central (128,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:01.736] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "I just heard baton and saw blue thing on me" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:03.532] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "i can't be more security looking" (Medbay Central (130,103,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:07.710] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "if I tried" (Medbay Central (130,103,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:08.429] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "You forget" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:09.636] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "Virus" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:11.628] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "i'm in full uniform" (Medbay Central (130,103,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:15.938] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "yeah I can barely see shit either" (Medbay Central (130,103,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:17.392] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "Jumping everyone's vision" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:22.462] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "And you were not red" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:26.624] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "You were blue on my eyes" (Medbay Central (129,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:36.073] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "i" (Medbay Central (130,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:38.857] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "can't do more than apologize" (Medbay Central (130,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:43.833] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "Now I'm going to be fucking poor...." (Medbay Central (128,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:44.745] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "hold on" (Medbay Central (131,104,3))
[2022-03-15 00:46:48.563] SAY: Riastlin/(Kassidy Nicholas) "And be on the shitty shuttle" (Medbay Central (128,105,3))
[2022-03-15 00:48:25.657] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "yes" (Security Post - Medbay (140,109,3))
[2022-03-15 00:48:26.158] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "i am" (Security Post - Medbay (140,109,3))
[2022-03-15 00:48:27.902] SAY: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) "having a conversation" (Security Post - Medbay (140,109,3))

Hopefully these logs help the parties come to a better understanding about what happened and why. All this bickering between eachother is not helping with what the core of the appeal is about:
As a detective, wrongfully murdered and decapitated a crewmember on bad assumptions ... Didn't verify they were the culprit, and left them round removed.

To me, the issue that are important here are:

• Were the assumptions massa100 made bad or unreasonable for a detective to rely upon without additional investigation? This answer relies on the understanding players operate with incomplete information all the time. However, a player should not avoid information in bad-faith to exploit this concept if they want to rely on it.
• Was the killing wrongful in the subjective context of massa's IC knowledge and what they ought reasonably to have known, or what steps they ought to have taken to find out more? What I think is important are things that show a genuine bad-faith approach on the massa's part, or willful ignorance as to if their approach would be considered bad-faith. This answer will always be informed by the overall context of the shift, the player's actions and the player's ticket conduct.
• Was the decapitation intentional or an accidental/"not-bad-faith" coincidental part of the way our wounds system works?
• To what extent did massa100 leave riastlin round removed and was it unreasonable within all the context of riastlin's death in medbay for them to have left without helping or investigating further?

The appeal should broadly focus on these points, since they form the specific reasons behind the ban. Or alternatively should focus on the points in the ban reason itself.

[massa]

- I maintain my assumptions were thoroughly reasonable, but I will also be exercising greater scrutiny as detective in the future. I ran prints, had these context clues, and went for the arrest with the probable cause that his prints were the only one on an opened crate of lethals, and that he was very likely armed. This is pretty reasonable to assume with this information.

- I can't imagine there is any instance of wrongful killing when brandishing a lethal weapon first. I realize it's not real life, but there's a reason in America that brandishing a weapon can and will get you legally killed. It is the same as using it. If less than 2 seconds and a few hasty clicks took off Feasel's head, it would have taken mine off too (I had riot armor, no firearm protection). I've also provided additional context that this shift was exceptionally violent and tidey, and I was extremely busy. I didn't have time to gather all these details, and the ones I did have were solid enough to pull an arrest off of. Drawing the weapon upon confrontation legitimized unloading it into him. It may have been a bit heavy handed, but I was squarely within the limitations of the rules for this, and any of your sec statics would have done the same thing.

- The decapitation was accidental. 7 shots, 20ish each, that should have landed him squarely into deepcrit. Instead, it popped his head off on the killing blow. Ultimately, I was already within my rights to kill him anyway, and decaps happen often. I don't see why this is some sort of exceptional addition to the issue, it's just like repairing any other wound. Nonetheless, I didn't want him decapped because it's a pain in the ass (and not chill to do deliberately), and I've consistently maintained that, from the first bwoink to the IC interactions.

- None at all, and no. The expectation to go even further than leaving him in the hands of the CMO and doctor is strange to me. I am not his mom. His head was in medical, the ordeal was done with 3 medical staff in plain view. I left his head for them while I went to search. From the get-go I was not trying to prevent his revival nor make it more difficult. I ensured all his shit was secured and accessible. I could have dragged his body one room over, but after I stripped it I had to take the 6 guns he had on him to armory and had limited space. This was the interim in which Feasel got fucked around beyond my control, after this point I found the HoS dead with another security officer, then the bwoinks came. I don't know where all his stuff went, there's no way I could. In my mind I left him in medbay under the full sight of the medical staff after securing the weapons he had, that were my responsibilities as security to generally keep out of the hands of crew.

Killing him was already justified by brandishing a weapon, and there was no 'round removal' to speak of. I didn't tell the chemist to kidnap his head, nor did I see it, nor would I have responded with anything but a bap with a batong and reacquisition of the head for the docs. The arrest was justified too, I had prints and was just doing what ANY sec officer would do. I'm not sure what you expect when you draw on security, nor what more I could have done in this medbay situation in a reasonable and realistic space station situation. Security is allowed to make mistakes and I'm not really convinced I made that many anyway, beyond the lack of perfect information that is part of this game. The idea of having to babysit revivals of people who died because of their own deliberate actions is strange to me, and even then, I did my best. I do not understand why I have been punished for killing someone who drew on me after I suspected them to be armed and attempted to detain them nonlethally, and left their body and head in medbay.

[Timberpoes]

Since I had the logs up, by shaps request the full attack trail against riastlin in medbay

https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... attack.txt

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

[2022-03-15 00:22:36.132] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has stun attacked Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Medbay Central (119,102,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:40.145] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has stun attacked Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Medbay Central (117,94,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:44.080] ATTACK: Haratic/(Adner Celtic) has stun attacked Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 100)  (Medbay Central (119,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:44.232] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the frozen nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: 100)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:44.235] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the frozen nanite bullet (NEWHP: 100)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:44.237] ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Open Puncture to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 51/116.942) | BWB: 10 (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:44.837] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the frozen nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: 80)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:44.840] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the frozen nanite bullet (NEWHP: 80)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:44.966] ATTACK: Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) has kicked Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) (NEWHP: 58.5)  (Medbay Central (118,96,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:45.562] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the frozen nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: 58.5)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:45.565] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the frozen nanite bullet (NEWHP: 58.5)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:45.568] ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Ruptured Cavity to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 89/116.942) | BWB: 10 (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:47.318] ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Hairline Fracture to head | Damage: 20.25 (rolled 47/67.452) (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:47.320] ATTACK: Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) has kicked Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) (NEWHP: 25.2)  (Medbay Central (118,96,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:47.835] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: 25.2)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:47.837] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet (NEWHP: 25.2)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:48.562] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at [floor] with the molten nanite bullet from Medbay Central (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:48.705] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Bloocki99/(Dana Wolff) with the molten nanite bullet (NEWHP: 70.8)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:49.633] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: 10.6)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:49.635] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet (NEWHP: 10.6)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:49.637] ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Third Degree Burns to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 30/116.942) | BWB: 10 (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:50.370] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: -9.4)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:50.372] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet (NEWHP: -9.4)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:51.054] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has fired at Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet from Medbay Central (NEWHP: -33.4)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:51.057] ATTACK: Massa100/(Julia Toolbox) has shot Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the molten nanite bullet (NEWHP: -33.4)  (Medbay Central (117,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:51.058] ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Dismemberment Wound to head (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
[2022-03-15 00:22:51.068] ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has died (BRUTE: 37.2, BURN: 42, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0) (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
[/spoiler]

[Feasel]

@Timberpoes.

The logs here show that they swapped between molten + frozen, which does burn + brute respectively. That wound stacks and will force a decapitation.
======================================================================================================================
ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Open Puncture to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 51/116.942) | BWB: 10 (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Ruptured Cavity to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 89/116.942) | BWB: 10 (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Hairline Fracture to head | Damage: 20.25 (rolled 47/67.452) (Medbay Central (118,95,3))

Blue Thermal Pistol Wounds
======================================================================================================================
ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Third Degree Burns to head | Damage: 30 (rolled 30/116.942) | BWB: 10 (Medbay Central (118,95,3))
ATTACK: Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) has suffered: Dismemberment Wound to head (Medbay Central (118,95,3))

Red Thermal Pistol Wounds
======================================================================================================================

Also, I'd like to show this in the logs.

ATTACK: Haratic/(Adner Celtic) has stun attacked Riastlin/(Feasel Easel) with the telescopic baton (NEWHP: 100) (Medbay Central (119,95,3))

The Detective had assistance in keeping me in a stamina critical position for detainment and questioning, specially when I had done nothing that round to truly warrant such an attack. Ontop of what else I had said from my side.

Let me know if I'm going too far on this and if I should step back and let administration handle it.

[Timberpoes]

Let me know if I'm going too far on this and if I should step back and let administration handle it.

Thanks for your contributions.

Shaps now has plenty between the logs posted and the back-and-forth you had with massa. Nautrally Shaps also has unrestricted access to the raw logs themselves; I just posted some key stuff as a scratchpad for everyone to see the timeline of events and hopefully guide discussion into a more productive area.

The main questions left are pretty much just administrative in nature.

[Shaps-cloud]

After talking it over in adminbus with some other admins, I'm still upholding this ban. I asked Timber to post the attack and wound logs specifically in the shooting so I could check in on them specifically, and they confirmed what I had suspected: You claimed that you were shooting him merely to crit him, but you still went massively overkill and had already applied a critical pierce, severe bone break, and severe burn wounds before you took the final shot that decapitated him. It might be a little unexpected that it's possible to combine the two pistols to decapitate someone when they're only at -30 health, especially if you don't know the finer points behind wound stacking and dismemberment, but that's still absolutely no excuse for dumping 9 shots (7 that hit, but still 9 fired) into someone who's already been pacified by multiple people.

The fact that you not only emptied an entire revolver point blank into their head while they were defenseless, but then dropped it and picked up another gun and continued firing into them until their head popped when they had already been hardcritted makes me believe that this was more motivated by you wanting to get revenge on him for stealing from you, rather than you legitimately trying to arrest him and reclaim the gear. That, mixed with the fact that you were incredibly negligent in confirming that they were the person who stole your gear in the first place, is enough for me to rule that your actions were not protected by the OOC protections that security personnel get against people who threaten them.

The only thing that the QM did "wrong" in this situation was pull guns on a member of security, which as you point out is usually enough to warrant getting killed valid. However, you made so many more mistakes that caused this confrontation in the first place, from not actually checking whether there was another thermal pistol crate or that said crate was yours, to not trying to speak to the QM or any other cargo workers to find out where your guns were, to not trying to talk to the QM before arresting him with no warning, to not arresting him once he was fully stunned and subdued and instead opening fire on him with a gun repeatedly, to not realizing you'd already maimed his head with 3 types of serious wounds before you finally delivered the coup de 'grace, to just looting the body and telling the rest of security he was proven to have stolen your guns when he hadn't even known why you were arresting him for in the first place before he'd been completely round removed- that it feels very disingenuous to blame the QM for his own death here when you having done any one of those things differently would have prevented his round removal.

Headmins of course are still free to overturn it if they so please.

[massa]

It doesn't matter whose thermal pistol crate it was. The crate was ordered and I was investigating someone who was armed to the teeth among the crew, not where my missing toys went. Whether I scanned the sec ordered box or not, possessing these weapons is a dangerous thing that security is EXPECTED to respond to. I had a primary lead from prints and knew all the guns were gone. Upon confrontation, he drew his weapon with intent to kill. This is self-antagging behavior that he got clapped for, and you're actually defending it. He was a non-antag QM armed to the fucking teeth trying to arm the crew who drew his gun on security conducting a legit arrest. He escalated to lethal violence, and I, as a player, was within my bounds, ESPECIALLY given the extra context and chaos of the round. I am not, unfortunately, omniscient. I am chasing guns, not petty details, that was just my first lead.

These details cannot matter, what matters is that I stepped in to confront a heavily armed crew member, as a member of a very active security staff, and he decided to draw instead of comply, as a non-antagonist. He was shot in the head, decapped in medbay, and left in medbay under the supervision of multiple doctors. I was under no obligation to spare his life. Him being in stamcrit is irrelevant, per LRP escalation his life was forfeit. Stamcrit only lasts 10 seconds, all it takes is one chemist shoving me into a wall, or an assistant grabbing me, for that situation to completely invert. He was left in medbay. While it was unfortunate it happened, reattaching a head is a 2 minute job. It was simply a non-issue.

I do not know why you expect me to have a pleasant conversation with a heavily armed suspect. Security has NEVER been required to talk to suspected armed criminals before batonging. You have to ambush them, and lethals are responded with lethals. That's how all security rolls, because not doing that gets you killed almost every time. He drew his guns, that made him fully valid under the rules, but I'm not a validhunter, nor do I stack frags, or operate under that mentality. He drew, he got shot for it, and left in medbay. You also continue to say "round removed". Dying in medbay and left in the arms of the CMO is the very opposite of "round removal". He was not "round removed" at all, at least, not by my intentions. I went to armory to stow the guns and then help my dying HoS. I am not responsible for the dead guy I left in medbay, and I should not be held responsible for a chemist skipping away with a severed head as a member of the medical staff.

I would like headmin review of this. While my behavior may be unsavory in the context of an MRP round, I broke no LRP rules in putting down a self-antagging player in medbay and leaving him with the CMO. LRP escalation and sec policy was followed to a T. This player acted like an antag, and got treated like one, as it goes.

[Mothblocks]

After some discussion with Shaps, we have edited the ban reason to the following:

As detective, made bad assumptions on circumstantial evidence that the QM stole guns they ordered, which they did not, then decapitated the QM with a set of thermal pistols when the QM resisted an ambush arrest after the QM was already incapacitated. The decapitation was likely not intended, but dumping 7 rounds into the QM's head point blank was egregious and wholly unnecessary.

...but will otherwise be upholding this ban.

There's a lot of nuance that we can't fit into a ban reason, for the sake of both admins reading it as well as technical limitations, so I'll explain a lot of the finer points here, and why specific changes were made the way they did.

First, we wanted to shift the focus away from the decapitation. The decapitation happened at around -30 HP, and has reasonable assumption to believe that it was not intentional.

However, the circumstances that caused the decapitation were intentionally placed.

My intention here was to crit him, definitely not kill or 'round remove' him.

We can afford that you did not intend to kill or round remove them, because your intention to crit is what we are deeming problematic.

You were in full riot gear, and made a completely wordless arrest on someone who could not immediately discern you as a security officer. Being stunned on LRP can be a complete death sentence, it is reasonable for the QM to fear for their life. You, on the other hand, had them completely stunned, and decided to lethal them anyway--there was no reason to fear for your life. Several wounds were inflicted, all which have distinct sound effects and visual cues to let you know they are happening, you should have realized the damage you were causing.

The situation beforehand is you investigating the fingerprints on the crate, and deducing the QM to have stolen your crate. This is perfectly enough to justify an arrest, and you had all the affordances to do so (I need to stress, they were completely stunned). Arresting the (not from your information, innocent) QM, accusing them of the crimes, as well as interrogating why they pulled out lethals so fast, etc etc, all would've made for exactly the type of paranoia-based investigations that we want detectives to do.

Citing security policy 1:

The only exception [to rule 1] is that security is generally considered to be armed with non-lethal methods to control a situation. Therefore, where reasonably possible, security is expected to use non-lethal methods first in a conflict before escalating to lethal methods.

Escalation to lethal methods was not justified here with the position you were in.