Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

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Imitates-The-Lizards
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Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #640435

BYOND account: Typhnox
Character name: Alice Heart
Ban type: N/A this is for a note
Ban length: N/A this is for a note
Note reason: Warned - as a HoS slash defacto captain, bought a Disco Inferno shuttle via emag. Stated they believed this was fine since crew could lynch them if they disliked it. This resulted in the deaths of everyone in the shuttle when it went off. Given otherwise good conduct and lack of resentment (anecdotally) I'll leave this as a warning, but please do not buy dangerous shuttles as a non-antagonist without good cause.
Time note was placed: 2022-05-10 11:14:31
Server you were playing on when noted: Sybil
Round ID in which note was placed: 182925
Your side of the story: I was the Head of Security, and it was a very busy shift - I personally caught at least 4 traitors, and I knew that the Clown was also a traitor, but he was non-harmful, so I picked my battles and let him off, since I don't like to validhunt people for the crime of existing as an antagonist. I knew the Clown had an emag, so I asked to borrow it from them, and bought the Disco Inferno shuttle. When it was time to evacuate, everyone died on the shuttle except for a lone heavily damage engiborg. HOWEVER, I'm not actually sure what killed everyone, as there were many many things going on at the time - the prior mentioned engiborg flooded the shuttle with some kind of gas mixture, someone ignited the disco inferno plasmatiles, AND there was a Resonance Cascade occurring in the SM, which I'm not really sure how that works yet. Actually, I have no idea what even killed me, as I was sitting in the cockpit away from the plasmafire and whatever the borg put in the shuttle. It may have been damage that was dealt to my holoparasite. Anyway, point is, I don't deny buying the shuttle, however, I feel that this note should be removed in it's entirety.
Why you think you should be un-noted: This note is not justifiable because there is a headmin ruling on this exact issue here: viewtopic.php?p=623677#p623677 . My interpretation of this ruling is that Captain's are allowed to purchase whatever shuttles they want, however, the crew is allowed to mutiny or lynch the captain if the captain purchases a terrible shuttle. This is further reinforced by what the Wiki's Headmin rulings section says:
Headmin Rulings Wiki wrote:Buying terrible shuttles as captain - Allowed, but the crew is also allowed to mutiny/lynch the captain.
Which can be found here: https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Headmin_Rulings
The Headmin Ruling does not mention anywhere that buying these shuttles is actionable by admins, and based on both the wording of the closing post in the Policy Discussion thread, and the listing in the Headmin Rulings, no one would reasonably come to the conclusion that Command is not allowed to purchase these shuttles at risk of getting bwoinked and noted, only that the crew is allowed to mutiny should they choose to do so. Like, that listing in Headmin Rulings is pretty damn explicit that it is allowed.
References of good conduct: N/A, as this is for a note, and I haven't had to play elsewhere
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Arianya
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by Arianya » #640436

Hi! Thanks for appealing.

As we briefly discussed in #help on Discord, your understanding of the ruling and its implications on enforcement seem (to my eye) incorrect.

The rules state:
Rule 1 Precedents wrote:Random murders are not acceptable nor is the killing of other players for poor or little reasoning such as ‘My character is insane’. Each unjustified kill is normally met with one 24 hour ban.
Now, obviously you didn't personally go out and kill people individually, but its a well held precedent that setting up a needlessly dangerous circumstance which results in people dying through no particular fault of their own is often going to result in administrative attention. This is doubly the case when playing a head of staff position like Head of Security.

In general, purchasing of most emagged shuttles (which the Disco Inferno is one of) is likely to result in mass death and damage to others. This is why they're locked behind an antagonist only item. However, back when shuttle variations were first being implemented, it was unclear if the Captain/whoever purchased the shuttle could be retaliated against ICly for purchasing "grief shuttles" - i.e. models of shuttles that are likely to cause the crew unnecessary grief and harm. The ruling that came back in 2021 (and which you rely upon in your appeal) noted definitively that the crew could take out their displeasure on the purchaser. As a corollary to that, we generally do not pursue administrative action against people buying "normal" (i.e. non-emag required) shuttles unless its blatantly done in bad faith - so BYOS shuttles and the like can be bought without dreading a message from an admin (generally).

That said, nowhere in that precedent nor elsewhere to my knowledge does it state that thus non-antagonists are allowed to buy contraband shuttles which can (and did, in this instance) result in mass death. The shuttle arrived at Centcomm completely without living people as a result of the mass firestorm that was caused by the Disco Inferno.

This has certainly been how this has been treated in the past, but I concede (as I did then) that you may have been led astray by the vague wording of "terrible shuttles" which doesn't exactly communicate very clearly what is being discussed, which is why I raised this with the headmins when we we're chatting.

None the less, I left a note and message for you so that you would be aware how this would be treated in future, based on my knowledge of the rules and precedents.

I hope this has clarified for you why this note was applied, and how this ruling was intended. Please note in general that killing crewmembers (directly or indirectly) without good reason as a non-antagonist will result in admin attention.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

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technokek
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by technokek » #640438

The Ruling in Question
Buying terrible shuttles as captain - Allowed, but the crew is also allowed to mutiny/lynch the captain.
This ruling allows the captain to buy terrible shuttles. Its clearly not talking about grief shuttles, you are completely ignoring the part where it says:
t's less about which shuttle the captain buys, and more the grief caused by buying that specific one.
and
Shuttles that are emag-locked are typically used to grief the crew, as are the Arena and cult shuttles.
Griefing is generally against the rules.
Imitates-The-Lizards
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #640441

Arianya wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:12 pm Hi! Thanks for appealing.

As we briefly discussed in #help on Discord, your understanding of the ruling and its implications on enforcement seem (to my eye) incorrect.

The rules state:
Rule 1 Precedents wrote:Random murders are not acceptable nor is the killing of other players for poor or little reasoning such as ‘My character is insane’. Each unjustified kill is normally met with one 24 hour ban.
Now, obviously you didn't personally go out and kill people individually, but its a well held precedent that setting up a needlessly dangerous circumstance which results in people dying through no particular fault of their own is often going to result in administrative attention. This is doubly the case when playing a head of staff position like Head of Security.

In general, purchasing of most emagged shuttles (which the Disco Inferno is one of) is likely to result in mass death and damage to others. This is why they're locked behind an antagonist only item. However, back when shuttle variations were first being implemented, it was unclear if the Captain/whoever purchased the shuttle could be retaliated against ICly for purchasing "grief shuttles" - i.e. models of shuttles that are likely to cause the crew unnecessary grief and harm. The ruling that came back in 2021 (and which you rely upon in your appeal) noted definitively that the crew could take out their displeasure on the purchaser. As a corollary to that, we generally do not pursue administrative action against people buying "normal" (i.e. non-emag required) shuttles unless its blatantly done in bad faith - so BYOS shuttles and the like can be bought without dreading a message from an admin (generally).

That said, nowhere in that precedent nor elsewhere to my knowledge does it state that thus non-antagonists are allowed to buy contraband shuttles which can (and did, in this instance) result in mass death. The shuttle arrived at Centcomm completely without living people as a result of the mass firestorm that was caused by the Disco Inferno.

This has certainly been how this has been treated in the past, but I concede (as I did then) that you may have been led astray by the vague wording of "terrible shuttles" which doesn't exactly communicate very clearly what is being discussed, which is why I raised this with the headmins when we we're chatting.

None the less, I left a note and message for you so that you would be aware how this would be treated in future, based on my knowledge of the rules and precedents.

I hope this has clarified for you why this note was applied, and how this ruling was intended. Please note in general that killing crewmembers (directly or indirectly) without good reason as a non-antagonist will result in admin attention.
I understand why you feel I was in the wrong for purchasing the shuttle, however, I feel this is an issue for the Policy Discussion forum regarding a clarification of the prior headmin ruling and the listing on the Wiki, not an issue to be fought over in my Notes. I was playing in good faith to give everyone a fun time as the Captain with a fun shuttle, and I made a reasonable interpretation of the Headmin ruling, even if it IS ultimately decided that emag shuttles are not included in the vague "terrible shuttles" that Captain's can buy, I don't feel this is something that I should be noted for, since this is an issue of the headmins and wiki team not being sufficiently clear, not an issue of me not being familiar with or setting out to break the rules.
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Arianya
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by Arianya » #640442

As I say, this isn't a "new issue" - the fundamental question is whether you can do something that hurts and or kills others for "a fun time "/little to no reason - the rules are clear on this. You are of course welcome to start a Policy Discussion if you think this Policy should be revised to be less vague/specifically state that dangerous shuttle purchases as a non-antagonist shouldn't be done, but the absence of a specific written policy about this does not override the general Rule 1 implications of it. Apologies if you feel hard done by, but if it is any consolation this note is unlikely to ever cause you issues unless you pursued more shuttle purchases like this or other behaviour that was on the same theme (i.e. setting up a supermatter in hallways or the like, not general rule breaking)

Apologies that I can't give you an answer you're happier with.
Frequently playing as Aria Bollet on Bagil & Scary Terry

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Imitates-The-Lizards
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #640444

Arianya wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:37 pm As I say, this isn't a "new issue" - the fundamental question is whether you can do something that hurts and or kills others for "a fun time "/little to no reason - the rules are clear on this. You are of course welcome to start a Policy Discussion if you think this Policy should be revised to be less vague/specifically state that dangerous shuttle purchases as a non-antagonist shouldn't be done, but the absence of a specific written policy about this does not override the general Rule 1 implications of it.
The problem is, I feel there WAS a specific written policy about this exact issue with this headmin ruling and the listing in the Wiki.
CursedBirb
Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:56 pm
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by CursedBirb » #640450

Imitates-The-Lizard if you disagree with the admin's ruling you can request a headmin appeal
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #640453

CursedBirb wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 4:15 pm Imitates-The-Lizard if you disagree with the admin's ruling you can request a headmin appeal
Oh, these aren't automatically for review by headmin?

I was under the assumption it was. Yes, I would quite like a headmin to look over this.
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by Imitates-The-Lizards » #640478

technokek wrote: Tue May 10, 2022 3:18 pm The Ruling in Question
Buying terrible shuttles as captain - Allowed, but the crew is also allowed to mutiny/lynch the captain.
This ruling allows the captain to buy terrible shuttles. Its clearly not talking about grief shuttles, you are completely ignoring the part where it says:
t's less about which shuttle the captain buys, and more the grief caused by buying that specific one.
and
Shuttles that are emag-locked are typically used to grief the crew, as are the Arena and cult shuttles.
Griefing is generally against the rules.
Pardon for not replying to this post yet, but I had not seen it to this point.

I think we're missing 3 important elements for this to be considered grief - intent, correlation, and reception

If you're solely looking at the results in a vacuum of what happened - I bought the shuttle, and people died on the shuttle, you might come to the conclusion that my action was griefing. HOWEVER, when we take a closer look, that's not necessarily the case.

Firstly, my intent - Did I sit there and think "Oh, what shuttle can I buy that will kill the most people, or piss off the entire crew?" Well, no, I just wanted the shuttle for fun. I guess that isn't really provable either way, though, but the admin doesn't seem to disagree with me on this.

Secondly, correlation - Did me buying the shuttle ACTUALLY directly cause people's deaths? I would actually argue possibly no here as well. Why? Because like I mentioned in my opening post for this thread, there was a large number of other factors in play here. To start with, all the players went out of their way to enter the central chamber of the disco inferno shuttle, the dance floor, where everyone knows damn well they can burn to death, instead of entering the back area of the shuttle which is separated by reinforced plasmaglass. If you set up an open floor fusion chamber in atmospherics and someone runs into it and dies, were you griefing? No? Then why am I griefing here? Just because it's the shuttle? Well, it has a safe room in the back. In addition, there was an engiborg who went out of their way in that shift to build a large atmospherics mix chamber in front of the shuttle, and they pumped all their gas into the shuttle - which is something they would have done regardless of what shuttle it was. Frankly, I think everyone would have died no matter what shuttle I bought.

Finally, reception - Did anyone else consider it as griefing in the shift? I don't think so. Why? Because no one called for me to be lynched or mutinied. No one (as far as im aware anyway) ahelped my shuttle purchase. In fact, I don't believe anyone even cared or complained about my shuttle purchase on comms at all. So, is it really griefing if not a single other player in the shift besides the admin who noted me thinks it was griefing?

So, I didn't intend to grief, it's quite finnicky as to whether or not I actually directly caused any grief, and no one else in the shift considered it grief. So was it really grief? If so, by what metric?

Additionally, if the point of that headmin ruling was to point out that these shuttles are grief and therefore actionable by admins, then what the hell is the point of going out of their way to state players can mutiny for command purchasing them? For shits and giggles? It's very apparent to me that you're intended to behead captains for this, not to note them.
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Mothblocks
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Re: Arianya - Alice Heart/Typhnox - Note appeal regarding shuttle purchase

Post by Mothblocks » #640632

We are deciding that we do not want to uphold the previous headmin ruling, especially ever since the changes to lock dangerous shuttles behind emags, which was done with essentially the sole intent of locking these behind antagonists.

Buying a shuttle that is literally designed to cause the death of crew members, as a non-antagonist, will now generally be treated the same way as any other sort of nearing-end-round grief, where you can face administrative action if something disastrous happens (which, again, is the entire point of these shuttles). You would be held responsible if you brought a supermatter shard to the shuttle and caused grief as a non-antagonist, for instance, it being nearly the end of the round does not mean the rules don't apply.

We are deciding the previous head admin ruling should still allow mutinies in some cases that it mentions, such as the following:
The Birdboat Shuttle isn't a traditional "grief" shuttle, but buying it when the crew is saving up for a more expensive shuttle or has agreed to make a BYOS could be cause for mutiny.
...but that admins are free to hold non-antagonists responsible for when the shuttles explicitly targeted for antagonistic behavior (emag-locked shuttles) lead to the grief they are designed to cause.

Me and MrMelbert agree on the above, with Timberpoes adding the following dissenting addendum:
Locking them behind the emag has dropped their purchase frequency to acceptable levels and I don't see the need to restrict them any further. I don't believe players or admins as a whole want this policy change, and I don't either.
However, with all that in mind, we are removing the note, for the precise reason that the head admin ruling does seem to explicitly allow buying the Disco Inferno as captain, and so it would be unfair to retroactively punish you for this new alteration.
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