[vekter] thatreallygoodsodaflavor - server ban

[Soda_Flavor]

BYOND account: thatreallygoodsodaflavor
Character name: Pete Feets
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 2 days
Ban reason: Ordered 43 supermatter shards from Cargo after another admin sent the station a million credits as part of an event.
Time ban was placed: 2022-05-30 04:19:31
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 184017
Your side of the story: An admin spawned in a million credits. Most people were already dead and the station was heavily damaged. There was a spider infestation. The shuttle was coming soon and I decided to spend the credits on supermatter shards since there wasn't much else interesting to do with it. Most of the players online were spiders at the time. A few spiders attacked us in cargo and I think one of the spiders took a supermatter shard and caused some damage with it. I'm not sure about most of the details since I didn't see it and the admin wouldn't give much context.
Why you think you should be unbanned: The admin was acting like I willingly gave a traitor a weapon they used to murderbone. I did not intentionally give anything to the spider, they stole a supermatter shard. I didn't even see it happen until the AI said in radio. An spider stole something, and I was killing any spiders I saw. I thought this was an interesting way to use the credits since the end of the round was approaching and most people already died. I didn't intentionally cause any damage, so I don't feel it's fair to take the blame when if there were no antagonists, nothing would have gone wrong. I feel like this is similar to other scenarios where an antagonists sabotages something.
Anything else we should know:

[Vekter]

03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3045 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3046 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20222ee] (0,0,0) || the paper Supply order #3047 generated a manifest with an incorrect station name.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3047 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3048 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3049 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3050 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3051 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3052 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3053 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3054 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3055 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3056 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3057 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3058 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3059 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3060 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3061 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3062 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x2022348] (0,0,0) || the paper Supply order #3063 generated a manifest missing listed contents.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3063 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x202234f] (0,0,0) || the paper Supply order #3064 generated with incorrect contents shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3064 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x2022356] (0,0,0) || the paper Supply order #3065 generated a manifest missing listed contents.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3065 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3066 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3067 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3068 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3069 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3070 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3071 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3072 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3073 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3074 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x202239c] (0,0,0) || the paper Supply order #3075 generated a manifest with an incorrect station name.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3075 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3076 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3077 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3078 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3079 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3080 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3081 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3082 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20223d4] (0,0,0) || the paper Supply order #3083 generated a manifest with an incorrect station name.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3083 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3084 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3085 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3086 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3087 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle Order #3088 (Supermatter Shard Crate, placed by thatreallygoodsodaflavor/(Pete Feets)), paid by Pete Feets has shipped.
03:58:06 [0x20010f6] (152,108,1) || the supply shuttle 44 orders in this shipment, worth 176000 credits. 40423 credits left.

There's really zero reason for you to ever order 43 supermatter shards that isn't malicious in nature. You were given a tool by an admin to do something fun and interesting with and you abused that privilege by wasting it all on harmful, grief-enabling items. If you had even attempted to do something constructive with it, like set up the dumbest engine idea ever, I would have been able to forgive it and probably leave it off with a note. Instead, there were at least twelve of them out of their crate in Cargo doing nothing but irradiating the place.

You made a poor decision that had exactly 0% chance of being constructive to the station. Not only is it grief, but it's excessively boring grief. The equivalent of putting a bunch of cans full of bomb mix plasma in the hallway and waiting for someone to open them.

Which, yes, would also get you banned.

Denied.

[Soda_Flavor]

They weren't activated, nobody was getting irradiated. You didn't even allow me to build any sort of an engine since I got interrupted before I could even finish unloading them and then the round ended. I think it's ridiculous that you're denying this based on the situation in cargo when A) you didn't even know about that when you contacted me and already intended to ban me and B) you explicitly said the ban was because of what happened with the shard that got stolen. It was clear you had no context on the situation since you just joined and I don't think you gave a fair judgment based on that.

[Vekter]

Your reason for buying them has changed three times now - first you told me you did it just to spend the credits, then for an art project. Had you told me it was for something specific and not just the sake of spending the credits, I would have believed you and probably given you leniency given your relatively clean record.

I'm not overturning this.

[Tearling]

Just so you know Soda_Flavor, if you still believe you should be unbanned, you can request a headmin review.

[iamgoofball]

was there any announcement about the 1 million credits?

[ToastGoats]

I was here for this round, the supermatter shards did cause some collateral but I wouldn't consider it grief, the spiders only really took advantage of it (to their disadvantage given spiders' problems with atmos.)

I don't think it had the potential to cause more grief than letting loose a sentient elite in good faith, which is dealt with in a similar way, going off what I've heard from admins.

[CoffeeDragon16]

I was the AI that round- From what I saw, only one or two of the shards actually left Cargo, and I didn't see the radiation spread at all. The one shard I saw that left Cargo was being used as a weapon against the spiders, which a spider stole and then dusted themself on it. I didn't see any lasting harm come of the shards, given at the time, the station was almost entirely spiders.

[LunaSerg]

Hello hello, I was also a part of this shift. Character name: Rain Cavalet. Wanted to throw in my two cents here, given the topic of this ban. Although a bit boring, given Soda's use of an excessive amount of cargo credits, I don't really see how this was especially harmful to that round. In my recollection, the shift was nearing its end with most of the crew dead and spidered, myself included. Most of the harm that did occur from ordering those shards came from when the spiders thought it was a smart idea to steal a crate from the order, and even then it was negligable. I'd understand spending all these credits at shift start for no apparent reason as HoS and just planting them all over the station being a bannable offense, but I really don't see how a near-shift-end order without a clear nefarious intent when you're one of the few crew left alive would warrant a grief ban, even if it is a couple of days. Again, a boring way to spend credits, but definitely not the worst thing I've seen at the end of a shift.

[AwkwardStereo]

I was playing in the shift as a Cargo Tech and the only thing I have to bitch about is they (either personally or the person they were with in Cargo when they were ordering the SM shards) smashed a set of airlocks to the Cargo Shuttle with hulk and spaced one of the few places I would have been safe from both the increasingly spaced station and the increasingly bad spider swarm. The Supermatter Shards were only annoying to me since now we couldn't order guns for the spiders. I would have called them morons, but by the time I realized what they had done the SM shards had arrived on the shuttle and started lagging me out.

[Vekter]

So the main issue here isn't the harm to the round itself, though that could have been significant in its own right. The main issue is that he ordered multiples of a significantly dangerous item that ended up being used to hurt people. Had they not existed in the round, two people wouldn't have been dusted. As Stereo points out as well, their existence ended up rendering Cargo pretty much inoperable for the rest of the round.

The point of the ban is this:

1) Soda ordered a frankly obscene number of supermatter shards. As far as I'm aware, he also opened the vast majority of them and left them open in Cargo. This rendered the department unusable.
2) There was little to no reason for actually doing this beyond spending as many credits as possible. There are other options that could easily benefit the station (pizza party crates, bicycles, pet crates, etc.) but he happened to choose one that had a chance of being a direct harm to the majority of the station.
3) This is distinct to the issue of whether or not it negatively affected the round for everyone as it did so for more than one person. Had the problem been more widespread, the ban would have been of a higher severity.

I mostly want people to understand that I'm not doing this just for the sake of getting a ban or because I'm anti-fun. Had it been quite literally anything else save for maybe mass ordering and releasing harmful gasses, this likely wouldn't have been a ban. The main reason he was banned is that there is zero constructive reason to order that many supermatter shards. It doesn't benefit anyone whatsoever and he did not make it clear what the reason for doing so was other than "lol idk it's funny".

E: Also if he had waited until the shuttle had launched or end-of-round this would have been a non-issue.

E2: Someone with a significantly better sense of humor than me suggested a cactus maze made of supermatter shards.

[Soda_Flavor]

I was playing in the shift as a Cargo Tech and the only thing I have to bitch about is they (either personally or the person they were with in Cargo when they were ordering the SM shards) smashed a set of airlocks to the Cargo Shuttle with hulk and spaced one of the few places I would have been safe from both the increasingly spaced station and the increasingly bad spider swarm. The Supermatter Shards were only annoying to me since now we couldn't order guns for the spiders. I would have called them morons, but by the time I realized what they had done the SM shards had arrived on the shuttle and started lagging me out.

To be fair, I didn't smash the airlocks, I forget who was hulk. Afterwards, there was plenty of money left over to buy guns. We just kind of ran out of time to do that.

Your reason for buying them has changed three times now - first you told me you did it just to spend the credits, then for an art project. Had you told me it was for something specific and not just the sake of spending the credits, I would have believed you and probably given you leniency given your relatively clean record.

I'm not overturning this.

I think that "just" spending the credits and an art project are not mutually exclusive.

I'm sorry, Vekter, that you and I cannot come to agreement on this. I was hoping we could after some discussion. I am requesting a head admin review of this for the following reasons:

1. I think the ban reason is unjustified and does not accurately represent the situation.
2. I don't think that the reviewing admin allowed for a fair appeal process.
3. I did not act out of malice or intend to grief, I was trying to have some fun and was acting with some other people who seemed to enjoy what we were doing.

Here is another brief summary of my points about the situation for the reviewing headmin to get my perspective:
- The station had already faced catastrophic damage from bombs and spiders when I ordered the shards. The extra damage caused by these shards was minimal in comparison.
- The deaths and collateral damage from the shards were caused by spiders stealing the shards. (I think 2 of them got stolen?)
- Even if the shards rendered cargo unusable, which I don't think they did, nobody in cargo put objections about having the shards there.
- I don't think that the ordering of these shards is "boring excessive grief." Other people thought the idea was funny and helped me move the shards. I was not intending to grief.
- Personally I think given the context, this was a silly way to spend a million credits we stole from the spiders.
- I did not anticipate the shards being stolen, and if I did I would have welded the vents and guarded the airlocks.

[Vekter]

So this doesn't get lost in the words below - After reading some of the feedback on this, I'm going to go ahead and reduce this to time served. I genuinely don't think you had any malice behind your actions. It was just something stupid that ended up being a poor decision. Your behavior has been fairly exemplary - your only other note from within the last year was for blowing up the tram, which was a popular meme at the time. Past that, it's been well over two years since you broke a rule. I'm also going to amend the note to read as such:

Ordered 43 supermatter shards from Cargo after another admin sent the station a million credits as part of an event. Multiple spiders stole some of these and ended up dusting two people with them. Was warned about purchasing large numbers of hazardous items as they can cause major problems for the station.

I think this is a fair compromise. Let me know if you disagree and we'll have the headmins step in.

I want to comment on these points so folks can understand my train of thought. Again, I'm not trying to be some heavy-handed hammer swinger or anything, I just think what happened was a bit over the line. I'll put them behind a spoiler as to not clog up the message.

Spoiler:

- The station had already faced catastrophic damage from bombs and spiders when I ordered the shards. The extra damage caused by these shards was minimal in comparison.

This is true, but the issue at hand isn't the global damage caused by the shards, it's the people who were dusted and the fact that you ordered so many for no realistic reason. I'm not sure if my sense of humor is completely fucked or what, but I'm having trouble seeing the humor in it. Not that it directly offends me or anything, it's just not really something that'd make me laugh.

- The deaths and collateral damage from the shards were caused by spiders stealing the shards. (I think 2 of them got stolen?)

Yes, but your purchase of them enabled this. I'd classify this under the same thing as if an antag was given a maxcap by someone in Science or if someone left a bunch of random grenades around the station - the person who took advantage of that situation might be an antag, but you were the one who provided that opportunity.

- Even if the shards rendered cargo unusable, which I don't think they did, nobody in cargo put objections about having the shards there.

This is a salient point, and I don't really have significant numbers on what the impact of them being in cargo is. For what it's worth, I didn't factor this into the ban duration - the two days is solely for the two people who were dusted.

- I don't think that the ordering of these shards is "boring excessive grief." Other people thought the idea was funny and helped me move the shards. I was not intending to grief.

Again, I'm not really understanding what's humorous about it, so if someone can elaborate, I would appreciate it. I guess there's some absurdity to ordering a shitload of things you don't often see ordered in mass quantities? Whatever, it's subjective.

- Personally I think given the context, this was a silly way to spend a million credits we stole from the spiders.

I still maintain that there were better ways to spend the money in equally silly ways.

- I did not anticipate the shards being stolen, and if I did I would have welded the vents and guarded the airlocks.

This is pretty short-sighted, but given that few humans were left alive, I can't really fault you for not anticipating this.

[Glassmann]

Hey I was the Quatermaster the shift in question(Jason M Coomers), I was in no way affected by this and honestly I am kind of baffled at how this led to a ban.
This whole thing seems like an odd form of entrapment where you give the crew a million credits and then wait for the crew to do something that allows you to come and fuck around with some player by banning them.
and is it really unexpected that the crew buys tons of silly and dangerous shit when you give them the money to do so

And I do remember there being a number of announcements about some pile of credits being dropped into a random location in maint.

[wubli]

i was in the round, it'd be a lie to say the radiation didn't spread at all from cargo but the maximum i saw was like oxygen tanks next to the AI upload
and radiation isn't as fucky wucky as it used to be so you can stand next to an irradiated oxygen tank for two seconds without throwing up and balding
from my perspective, it definitely wasn't super griefy since it hardly affected anyone
BUT

Multiple spiders stole some of these and ended up dusting two people with them

i was not aware of this part as a player and these things in the rules have always been a "if you do this, you are responsible for whatever happens" just like leaving bombs on the floor

[MooCow12]

I played this round and I believe I posted a short video of it on youtube. This is my neutral opinion that I think will help and hurt both sides but allow for more transparency on what happened.

There were a lot of spiders to the point where it would be incredibly unmanageable to deal with them without area denial like shitmos.

While the sm crystals obviously arn`t going to be that effective on a spider swarm due to simple mob shitcode that makes them immune to rads, and he did not buy them with the intent to use them against the spider swarm, I do believe that once shit hits the fan, more dangerous mechanics like plasmaflooding are generally encouraged, even for the sake of just playing with them and seeing what happens.

And I firmly believe that spiders using sm crystals to dust people was an irrelevant point since its very likely the spiders could have just as easily swarmed and killed those two individuals that were mentioned instead of going for a fun and gimmicky way to kill them, but for transparency's sake let`s look at how many individuals were actually killed by the supermatter shards.


https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/syb ... ngine.html

04:03:00 [0x202237b] (92,143,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed Furminium/(Rook).
04:04:04 [0x202237b] (92,143,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed Calibraptor/(Steve Interim).
04:04:25 [0x202236d] (99,115,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed astrogem2/(spider (92)).
04:04:59 [0x202236d] (100,115,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed Fat Orangutan/(Aargl Marboles).
04:05:00 [0x202237b] (103,146,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed Stiix/(Submissive And Emaggable).
04:05:04 [0x202236d] (100,115,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed ToastGoats/(Paul Grumblestumpskin).
04:05:52 [0x202237b] (104,147,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed Koolguy007/(Dane Jer Dan).
04:07:27 [0x202232e] (70,149,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed That REALLY Good Soda Flavor/(Pete Feets).
04:08:35 [0x202236d] (101,115,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed calibraptor/(spider (616)).
04:14:02 [0x202236d] (102,115,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed heyhey69/(spider (72))
04:15:36 [0x202239e] (72,148,2) || the supermatter shard has consumed riastlin/(spider (401)).

I think this is all of the living characters that were consumed, you can look at the link to see who was irradiated by the shards as well.

What I perceive to be the main issue here is the spider swarm was mainly growing from the very opposite side of the station from cargo, so obviously this was worst case scenario for buying supermatter shards when people may be flocking to or near cargo as a safe haven. (Which seemed to have been the case.)

[Vekter]

As much as I appreciate the additional feedback on this, it's all kind of moot given that I've already unbanned the guy.

[Soda_Flavor]

So this doesn't get lost in the words below - After reading some of the feedback on this, I'm going to go ahead and reduce this to time served. I genuinely don't think you had any malice behind your actions. It was just something stupid that ended up being a poor decision. Your behavior has been fairly exemplary - your only other note from within the last year was for blowing up the tram, which was a popular meme at the time. Past that, it's been well over two years since you broke a rule. I'm also going to amend the note to read as such:

Ordered 43 supermatter shards from Cargo after another admin sent the station a million credits as part of an event. Multiple spiders stole some of these and ended up dusting two people with them. Was warned about purchasing large numbers of hazardous items as they can cause major problems for the station.

I think this is a fair compromise. Let me know if you disagree and we'll have the headmins step in.

I want to comment on these points so folks can understand my train of thought. Again, I'm not trying to be some heavy-handed hammer swinger or anything, I just think what happened was a bit over the line. I'll put them behind a spoiler as to not clog up the message.

Spoiler:

- The station had already faced catastrophic damage from bombs and spiders when I ordered the shards. The extra damage caused by these shards was minimal in comparison.

This is true, but the issue at hand isn't the global damage caused by the shards, it's the people who were dusted and the fact that you ordered so many for no realistic reason. I'm not sure if my sense of humor is completely fucked or what, but I'm having trouble seeing the humor in it. Not that it directly offends me or anything, it's just not really something that'd make me laugh.

- The deaths and collateral damage from the shards were caused by spiders stealing the shards. (I think 2 of them got stolen?)

Yes, but your purchase of them enabled this. I'd classify this under the same thing as if an antag was given a maxcap by someone in Science or if someone left a bunch of random grenades around the station - the person who took advantage of that situation might be an antag, but you were the one who provided that opportunity.

- Even if the shards rendered cargo unusable, which I don't think they did, nobody in cargo put objections about having the shards there.

This is a salient point, and I don't really have significant numbers on what the impact of them being in cargo is. For what it's worth, I didn't factor this into the ban duration - the two days is solely for the two people who were dusted.

- I don't think that the ordering of these shards is "boring excessive grief." Other people thought the idea was funny and helped me move the shards. I was not intending to grief.

Again, I'm not really understanding what's humorous about it, so if someone can elaborate, I would appreciate it. I guess there's some absurdity to ordering a shitload of things you don't often see ordered in mass quantities? Whatever, it's subjective.

- Personally I think given the context, this was a silly way to spend a million credits we stole from the spiders.

I still maintain that there were better ways to spend the money in equally silly ways.

- I did not anticipate the shards being stolen, and if I did I would have welded the vents and guarded the airlocks.

This is pretty short-sighted, but given that few humans were left alive, I can't really fault you for not anticipating this.

Thank you for responding. I'm happy read see your understanding of my side of the situation. I appreciate you lifting the ban.

I think the note still leaves out some important context, especially about the state of the station and the end of the round approaching. I agree with MooCow12's point that the spiders could have just as easily attacked the people who were dusted by the shards. I want to stress that this is not typical behavior from me. I do not plan to do something like this normally. I understand, that in a normal space station environment, the same action would be weighted very differently. That is why I am expressing my concern. I think this note reflects poorly on me and could be used to claim that I regularly act this way, but my decision to do this was influenced by the unusual event and the state of the round. I would greatly prefer if the note were removed from my record. I promise that your reconsideration won't backfire; I have no intentions to grief a station that's in good shape with supermatter shards or other hazardous items.

I hope I've conveyed my feelings to you. Looking forward to your response.

[Vekter]

I modified the note to read as such:

Ordered 43 supermatter shards from Cargo after another admin sent the station a million credits as part of an event. Multiple spiders stole some of these and ended up dusting two people with them. It is worth noting that the station was already in a very bad state which likely influenced his decision making. Was warned about purchasing large numbers of hazardous items as they can cause major problems for the station.

I will not be removing the note, as I feel that it's important to at least document that this happened for the future. I doubt you will have to worry about it given your current history on the server.

[Soda_Flavor]

I modified the note to read as such:

Ordered 43 supermatter shards from Cargo after another admin sent the station a million credits as part of an event. Multiple spiders stole some of these and ended up dusting two people with them. It is worth noting that the station was already in a very bad state which likely influenced his decision making. Was warned about purchasing large numbers of hazardous items as they can cause major problems for the station.

I will not be removing the note, as I feel that it's important to at least document that this happened for the future. I doubt you will have to worry about it given your current history on the server.

There isn't anything left for us to discuss then. I firmly believe that I shouldn't have been contacted by admins about this, let alone a note. I would like headmin review.

[Timberpoes]

From:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44

Note appeals:
Notes are remarks about players added to player's files in order to help keep track of player behavior, trends, as well as admin interactions with players. Notes have many uses and are not exclusively used to record rule breaking behavior, but we do recognize that their existence can seem like a black mark on the player.

For those reasons, notes can be appealed if they match one of the following two cases:

1. The note is factually or materially incorrect.
   1. There must be a difference between how an admin who knew all the facts would view you vs how an admin who only had the note to go on would view you. If you were being a shit but the note didn't correctly detail exactly how you were being a shit, an appeal nitpicking this detail is unlikely to be granted.
   2. Statements that are clearly pure opinion on the admins part can not be incorrect (because that is what the admin actually believes), but may be appealed under case 2 below.
   3. Appealed bans are only factually incorrect if the conditions around ban itself was incorrect. Getting unbanned because you apologized or similar reasons is not grounds to have the auto-generated note about the ban removed. Likewise: getting unbanned because you broke the rules but the admin or a headmin later determined that a ban was "too much" is not grounds to remove the ban's note.
   4. Notes appealed under this rule may be amended rather than removed.
   5. Notes appealed under this rule will generally be more successful if appealing players offers suggested rewording that they feel properly accounts for nuances without minimizing what the note is trying to highlight. Understand that we have to balance keeping notes short and succinct with accurately reflecting the situation.
2. The note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.
   1. Notes that contain admin opinions that unfairly paint the player in a bad light are one example.
      1. Emphasis on the phrase "unfairly". If you're repeatedly a shitter and an admin calls you a shitter in a note just take the hint and improve on not being a shitter

Which of the above cases are you disputing the note under and why do you believe the note falls under that?

[Soda_Flavor]

From:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44

Note appeals:
Notes are remarks about players added to player's files in order to help keep track of player behavior, trends, as well as admin interactions with players. Notes have many uses and are not exclusively used to record rule breaking behavior, but we do recognize that their existence can seem like a black mark on the player.

For those reasons, notes can be appealed if they match one of the following two cases:

1. The note is factually or materially incorrect.
   1. There must be a difference between how an admin who knew all the facts would view you vs how an admin who only had the note to go on would view you. If you were being a shit but the note didn't correctly detail exactly how you were being a shit, an appeal nitpicking this detail is unlikely to be granted.
   2. Statements that are clearly pure opinion on the admins part can not be incorrect (because that is what the admin actually believes), but may be appealed under case 2 below.
   3. Appealed bans are only factually incorrect if the conditions around ban itself was incorrect. Getting unbanned because you apologized or similar reasons is not grounds to have the auto-generated note about the ban removed. Likewise: getting unbanned because you broke the rules but the admin or a headmin later determined that a ban was "too much" is not grounds to remove the ban's note.
   4. Notes appealed under this rule may be amended rather than removed.
   5. Notes appealed under this rule will generally be more successful if appealing players offers suggested rewording that they feel properly accounts for nuances without minimizing what the note is trying to highlight. Understand that we have to balance keeping notes short and succinct with accurately reflecting the situation.
2. The note's contents or existence is unjustifiably harsh to the player's standing in the eyes of admins reading the notes.
   1. Notes that contain admin opinions that unfairly paint the player in a bad light are one example.
      1. Emphasis on the phrase "unfairly". If you're repeatedly a shitter and an admin calls you a shitter in a note just take the hint and improve on not being a shitter

Which of the above cases are you disputing the note under and why do you believe the note falls under that?

I believe that the note is unfair for the following reasons:
- Players who were dusted by the SM shards could have easily been killed by the spiders instead, just like most crew members already were. The ban was under the belief that I "gave antagonists a weapon." They did not need this weapon and in fact it would likely have been easier for them to kill people without dragging around a large SM shard.
- The ban and note were also under the belief that this had a severe negative effect on the round of several people. Given my point above and the fact that the crew members in cargo seemed to enjoy or be neutral to the situation, I don't think this is true.
- The circumstances of this round were highly unusual. If a similar situation isn't going to happen again, then I don't see how this information in the form of a note is actually useful.

[Timberpoes]

Thanks for the follow up! It helps us narrow things down so the headmin team's discussions are more focused on the aspects you disagree with (which are more important than whatever random thoughts jump into our heads) and thus may (or may not) speed things up.

We'll get back to you in due course.

[Timberpoes]

We simply forgot about this.

There's actually a lot of discussion and back-and-forth in this thread, so it probably does warrant genuine headmin due diligence of some sort.

As a result, I've re-pinged headmins about this internally and intend to see this ruled on by hook or by crook.

[Timberpoes]

I firmly believe that I shouldn't have been contacted by admins about this, let alone a note. I would like headmin review.

Purchasing so many supermatter shards is a reasonable thing for an admin to investigate and warn players about, and standard practice is to record warnings via notes.

The current state of your note is:

Ordered 43 supermatter shards from Cargo after another admin sent the station a million credits as part of an event. Multiple spiders stole some of these and ended up dusting two people with them. It is worth noting that the station was already in a very bad state which likely influenced his decision making. Was warned about purchasing large numbers of hazardous items as they can cause major problems for the station.

This note represents a remark of an admin interaction with you. Because of all the additional context added, we feel it is a fair and accurate assessment of what happened with a clear and relevant warning left. There is nothing in this note that is unjustifiably harsh, or any admin opinions that unfairly paint you in a bad light to other admins.

Vekter's final handling of this appeal will be upheld and the note as edited by Vekter will stand.