[thunder12345] Celulamp - Junaiper doesn't go prisoner for one shift gets banned

[celularLAmp]

BYOND account: Celulamp
Character name: Junaiper Values
Ban type: Server
Ban length: 2 Day
Ban reason: As psychologist, responded to two assistants breaking into their office by gunning both down with a shotgun they had been given by the HoS. There is nothing of great value in the psychology office, and absolutely no reason to use lethal force as a first resort in removing trespassers
Time ban was placed: 17:20:44
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed:185136
Your side of the story: Im a psychologist I see two tiders unwelding and wrenching my door, hos gives me a shotgun and leaves my office instead of arresting them, they say "we tide" I shoot them and drag their dead bodies to medbay. I did not know it was improvised shells I thought it was beanbag or rubber. The admin says that "there is nothing of value" and that I should have instead ran or chased after hos and demanded he arrest them? also if i got banned for disconnecting that wasn't on person I thought he banned me that's why it disconnected me? if that's not the case then I Guess I just lagged or something.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I think this ban is really stupid i've had other bans or notes that make sense but I was defending my room like scientists or other people do with their own stuff. The things in the cabinet can be useful to people like heretics and to me.
References of good conduct: Only ever banned on TG twice once on manuel and other on sybil I Think? I waited out my bans and then I got back to playing. theres a big period of time where I didn't get banned as reference of good behaviour.
Anything else we should know: Link to the ticket https://atlantaned.space/banbus/ticket/12b3cad5b355a196

[celularLAmp]

So when I disconnected apparently the server crashed. So don't think I disconnected to escape punishment or whatever cus server crashed then I got banned


also i do not wordlessly kill


[2022-06-18 17:04:06.501] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "we" (Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2))
[2022-06-18 17:04:07.704] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "tide" (Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2))
[2022-06-18 17:18:43.162] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "ORE ROK" (Medbay Central (97,107,2))
[2022-06-18 17:18:45.441] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "HELP ME" (Medbay Central (96,104,2))
[2022-06-18 17:18:46.443] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "VALID" (Medbay Central (96,104,2))
[2022-06-18 17:18:48.994] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "PSYCHOLOGIST" (Medbay Central (96,104,2))
[2022-06-18 17:06:53.832] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) (DEAD) "damn bro" (Medical Break Room (84,81,2))
[2022-06-18 17:06:56.093] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) (DEAD) "need to become" (Medical Break Room (84,81,2))
[2022-06-18 17:06:56.781] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) (DEAD) "more" (Medical Break Room (84,81,2))
[2022-06-18 17:06:57.809] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) (DEAD) "robust" (Medical Break Room (84,81,2))
[2022-06-18 17:07:04.841] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) (DEAD) "im gonna" (Medbay Storage (84,96,2))
[2022-06-18 17:07:06.464] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) (DEAD) "valid hunt" (Medbay Storage (84,96,2))
[2022-06-18 17:07:11.029] SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) (DEAD) "her" (Medbay Storage (84,96,2))

[BONERMASTER]

I'd like to point out the following rule, as is listed on https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Rules.

Quoting rule 1, precedent 6, sentence 1:

1. Don't be a dick

Precedent 6: You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere.

As you have detailed in your last post, you have warned the two assistants to stop breaking into your house, which they ignored.
After violently breaking in, they have opened themselves up to the consequences as is outlined in the previously mentioned precedent.

These home invasions are a very tense and dangerous situation. The assistants broke in, not only knowing fully well that you are still present there, but also having been verbally warned to stop and leave the premises! What happened certainly was horrible, but your safety is very important. Could you clarify if you, at any point during this, felt fear for your life?


With safe regards
-BONERMASTER

[celularLAmp]

i was frightened
I prepared a list of outcomes that could have happened
-I shove them they shove me over and kill me with punches
- I shove them they shove me over I pull out gun they shove me again and shoot me with it
- they shoot me with a makarov
- they mansus grasp me
- they cult hand me

They broke not only the wall but the bookcase (I had to tell them how to and I even if in danger or kidnapped I let people know how to play the game) and were inside. I brought them straight to medical and they were revived.

the momment he was revived he started screaming and looking for me to kill me because I was valid (you know for defending my workplace?)

Also for this extremely brief period of being dead I get 48 hours that I cannot play.

[2022-06-18 17:05:34.246] EMOTE: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) seizes up and falls limp, his eyes dead and lifeless... (Medical Break Room (81,84,2))
[2022-06-18 17:12:05.452] EMOTE: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) gasps! (Medbay Treatment Center (85,105,2))

[Thunder11]

The psychologist's office is an out of the way section of medbay which doesn't actually perform any critical function. They took down the wall into your office, took no violent actions towards you, and you opted to gun them down with a shotgun. As I pointed out in the ticket, there were multiple ways you could have acted to avoid killing them immediately. You had easy access to a way out of the room, and someone breaking it wasn't going to make it impossible for you to do your job, you should have attempted to resolve the issue through less extreme means before killing them.

[celularLAmp]

headmins pls this guy did not read my appeal :(

[Sylphet]

The psychologist's office is an out of the way section of medbay which doesn't actually perform any critical function.

You may defend your workplace from trespassers who damage or steal property within that space with significantly greater force than elsewhere.

How important the psychologist's office is completely irrelevant to whether or not it's possible to escalate. It is their workplace and they are entitled to use force to defend it.

As a non-antagonist you may begin conflict with another player with valid reason (refusal of critical services, belligerent attitude, etc) OR if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job. Whomever you engage is entitled to respond to your actions. If the conflict leads to violence and you had a poor reason for causing conflict in the first place, you may face administrative action.

If rule 1 isn't enough, this is protected by escalation policy too. The two tiders did not have a reason to initiate a conflict - and they did initiate by breaking into Celulamp's workplace. This makes Celulamp the defender, and the rate of escalation follows them. Nowhere in the rules are they required to back away and leave their department. It isn't reasonable to expect them to go get help from security, because the headsec handed them a weapon instead of helping. Security had already refused to help. This ban also assumes that Celulamp knew that the shells loaded were lethals. They did not load the weapon themselves, and the sec shotguns are loaded by default with rubber shells. It would be really weird for a headsec to just hand someone a loaded, lethal weapon. The tiders ignored the verbal warning that they were given, Security refused to deal with them, Celulamp had them revived regardless. The tiders then attempted to frame Celulamp as an antag immediately on revival.

Exactly what were they supposed to have done, completely without any reasonable means of getting them to stop breaking in. Just roll over and let the tiders destroy their workplace for no valid IC reason ? Potentially be killed by them, if they happen to be antags ? (Or, in their case, self antags.)

Somehow you managed to punish the victim here, for getting fucked with under invalid escalation from the start.

[Thunder11]

I still don't believe them breaking into a room which largely exists for fluff purposes justified jumping straight to killing, the psychologist is capable of doing their job elsewhere if they really have to. The ruling about greater force exists because of people breaking into places such as RnD or robotics and making it impossible for the usual inhabitants to do their jobs, and even then "significantly greater force" does not automatically mean "immediate lethal force". If they had backed off and the assistants kept coming after them, or they had fired once and the assistants didn't back down, it would be much more reasonable to light them up. It seems we're not going to be able to agree on this, so I've passed it over to the headmins for their opinion.

[Sylphet]

Again, they were warned not to enter. The assistants already did not back down. Your criteria is already met by what happened. The psychologist's entire job is roleplay, it doesn't matter if there is no mechanical part to the job - it is their job to sit in their office just as much as it's a roboticists' to make mechs, and by taking that away from them by breaking into their office, it does --

As a non-antagonist you may begin conflict with another player with valid reason (refusal of critical services, belligerent attitude, etc) OR if it does not excessively interfere with their ability to do their job.

I still don't believe them breaking into a room which largely exists for fluff purposes justified jumping straight to killing, the psychologist is capable of doing their job elsewhere if they really have to.

What makes it that they have to do their job elsewhere ? Why are they the one who needs to relocate, and what gives the tiders the right to take their workplace from them ? These "fluff purposes" are the entire content of the psychologist job.

[Mothblocks]

We're going to lift this ban and the note. Here are a few points of note.

First, we want to openly disagree with the logic that because the psychology office is a fluff room, that it does not deserve protection from the psychologist. The psychology office is a workplace like any other, and players should not be essentially forcably removed from it because security did not want to act, or because the player was not more robust than the invader. This is especially true since, according to the appeal, Cellulamp did ask security, and they got the shotgun.

There are also two things to note about the shotgun itself.

One is Cellulamp's ambiguity on what's in it. This can read as a bit silly, but there doesn't seem to be any large reason to assume bad faith because of two: how the battle actually took place. You see, improvised shotguns are actually pretty terrible for killing, so I was suspicious that they managed to both kill them AND not know what was inside the shotgun.

The logs for guns are atrocious, but reading through attack logs the fight went down like so:

Event 1 (yes we are three layers deep into counting), Cellulamp fires several shots. They do this until the player is on the ground in crit.

[2022-06-18 17:05:11.452] ATTACK: Timuar/(Tim Hemos) has thrown the iron (Fore Port Maintenance (83,171,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.598] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: 3.4) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.600] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: 3.4) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.602] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -2.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.603] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -2.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.605] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -8.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.606] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -8.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.608] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -14.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.610] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -14.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.611] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -20.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.613] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -20.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.615] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -26.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.616] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -26.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.618] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -32.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.620] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -32.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.622] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -38.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.623] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -38.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.625] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -44.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.626] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -44.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.628] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has fired at Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet from Abandoned Medbay (NEWHP: -50.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.630] ATTACK: Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) has suffered: Ruptured Cavity to chest | Damage: 35 (rolled 134/145.109) (Abandoned Medbay (75,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:11.631] ATTACK: Celulamp/(Junaiper Values) has shot Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) with the bullet (NEWHP: -50.6) (Abandoned Medbay (76,77,2))

These are all from what appears to be either the same shot, or two shots. Gun logs are just really that bad, it's showing for each individual projectile, of which the improvised shell pukes out a bunch.

So Cellulamp has now crit the tider, which I think is completely justifiable.

Event 2 confirmed my initial supsicions:

[2022-06-18 17:05:31.453] ATTACK: Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) Has whispered his final words with -58.3 points of health! (Greater Aft Maintenance (73,77,2))
[2022-06-18 17:05:31.456] ATTACK: Roozbeh/(Janine Digson) has died (BRUTE: 96.3, BURN: 63.2, TOX: 0, OXY: 47.0333, CLONE: 0) (Greater Aft Maintenance (73,77,2))

The tider succumbs. Succumbing does not lose you your OOC rights by any means, but in this instance it does mean that we can't really claim Cellulamp killed them, much less intended to.

TL;DR -- It looks like Cellulamp crit a tider breaking into their workplace, which is entirely justified, and then the tider succumbed, promoting it to a kill without Cellulamp doing anything extra.

[Mothblocks]

After further investigation, we also take strong issue with the ahelp of this:

From Ticket #2 during round 185136 on Terry
Ticket opened at 2022-06-18 17:06:28 by wearethechampions
Log:
17:06:28: Ticket Opened by-wearethechampions: help junaiper valve bad?
17:07:30: Reply from-thunder12345: What?
17:07:47: Reply from-wearethechampions: is junaiper values antag? she stole my shit killed me and my partner tider.
17:08:08: Reply from-wearethechampions: felt pretty mad since i was just passing by with no intentions of toomfolery.
17:09:33: Ticket Opened by-wearethechampions: uhmm any response?
17:20:51: Reply from-thunder12345: Handled
17:20:52: Resolved by Thunder12345
---- No futher messages ----
This ticket was generated by Statbus v.0.14.0

We take specific issue with the following claim:

felt pretty mad since i was just passing by with no intentions of toomfolery.

Checking the logs, this is the player who said "we tide", which Celulamp saw given their mention in the appeal:

SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "we" (Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2))
SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "tide" (Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2))
SAY: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) "yes" (Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2))

...and according to the admittedly lax tool logs, was the person who was deconstructing the wall, which Celulamp also mentions (though incorrectly words as the airlock):

[2022-06-18 17:03:53.317] TOOL: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) used the wrench on the girder at Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2)
[2022-06-18 17:03:53.478] TOOL: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) used the wrench on the girder at Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2)
[2022-06-18 17:03:53.770] TOOL: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) used the wrench on the girder at Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2)
[2022-06-18 17:03:53.950] TOOL: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) used the wrench on the girder at Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2)
[2022-06-18 17:03:54.227] TOOL: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) used the wrench on the girder at Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2)
[2022-06-18 17:03:54.386] TOOL: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) used the wrench on the girder at Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2)
[2022-06-18 17:03:54.541] TOOL: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) used the wrench on the girder at Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2)
[2022-06-18 17:03:54.788] TOOL: We are the champions/(Nicholas Wise) used the wrench on the girder at Abandoned Medbay (81,79,2)

This takes place a second after they talk, and is the wall directly to the left of psychology on MetaStation. They were most certainly not "just passing by", and by explicitly declaring their intention to "tide", they definitely did not have "no intentions of toomfolery [sic]".

The player in question does not appear to have a linked Discord account, so we could not ask them what this was about. With these discoveries, we have decided to place a 2 week ban for what appears to be lying to an admin with the attempt to ban bait, and invite them to appeal if there is reason to believe they were not lying.