[Delaron] Kayozz11 - Incorrect note appeal

kayozz · Post by **kayozz** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:21 pm #658735

BYOND account: Kayozz11
Character name: Ronnie Biscuits
Ban type: Not a ban, it's a note appeal
Ban length: N/A
Ban reason: As lawyer in low pop manuel round took captains spare ID and wiped access from it. Promptly suicided afterwards. This caused several shift issues regarding administrative events. Please do not purposefully ruin the shift for others when you intend to eject from the round.
Time ban was placed: 2022-11-08 14:55:05
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: 193946

Hey, so I was curious if I had any notes and found the above. So I checked the logs and lo and behold I find this singular note.
Allow me to explain why I think this is incorrect.
Basically it was a very low pop round. We had no heads of staff and someone made me acting Captain until a head arrived. I know this isn't protocol but I went with it for meme's sake as I tend to avoid playing head roles because of a) the stress and b) I'm not robust and c) I don't know where all the important stuff is kept. This can be validated by the logs where I'm asking where the nuke disk is kept etc.

Now, YES I did suicide some point later in the round as I had real life stuff to deal with, but before doing so I informed a couple of people and put all the Captain's gear in one safe pile and I think I informed someone that I had to leave and then suicided. So there's no malicious intent there and I know the rules about suiciding as a head is poor form, but I wasn't a real head of staff and I even informed the crew that I was leaving and was going to kill myself.

Now secondly, I can find logs of OTHER players wiping/adding access to the card, but I cannot find a single instance of myself doing that. And moreso, because I don't play HOP or Captain, I don't really know how to add/remove access.

I checked the logs with CTRL+F and there's 18 instances of OTHER people adding/removing access such as Silencio the Mime and Miriam Hornet and Ephren Roux, but zero log of what I've been accused of.

I know it's not a huge deal, but the note is incorrect. I didn't take the Cap's ID (it was given to me), I didn't promptly suicide (I started at 12:27:29 and suicided at 01:27) an hour later. And on top of that, it looks like the admin took someone's word for it without even checking the logs "RBasilisk/(Ephren Roux) "Ronnie somehow removed the accesses from the cap's spare"

So in short, I think the note is unfair and makes me look like a griefer or something, when I didn't even touch the Cap/Hop ID machine - So I'm politely asking if someone could either do a proper check of the logs and prove me wrong and if it is wrong, could you remove the note please.

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Link to the logs https://scrubby.melonmesa.com/round/193 ... e=game.txt

Post by **Timberpoes** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 1:37 am #658751

ID card changes are sub-logged in their own file.
https://tgstation13.org/parsed-logs/man ... anges.html

However, there is one entry that doesn't appear in those logs, but in the admin-only logs for using our tgui interfaces:
https://tgstation13.org/raw-logs/manuel ... 6/tgui.log (Only admins/maintainers can access this link)

Spoiler:

These are the only log entries of you trying to modify access, and show you trying to apply the Chief Engineer template to an ID card.

There is ALSO an example of RBasilisk ejecting an ID card from the modify slot, adding another ID card, changing accesses on it where tgui thinks the "Captain" wildcard slots are in play (I believe this should only be possible on gold ID cards such as the spare) and then setting it to the Station Engineer template.

Spoiler:

These log entry timestamps match up with changes to the Captain ID card from the ID card changes file:

Spoiler:

I would tentatively theroise that
1: I need to properly log ID card template changes in the ID card logging file.
2: Some unknown ID card had access overwritten to the Chief Engineer template by Kayozz11, with no other access changes.
3: Rbasilisk overwrote the Cap's Spare with the Station Engineer template at [2022-11-08 13:29:06.265] - If the card wasn't fucked before, it definitely was by now.

Could you have tried (accidentally or otherwise) to apply the Chief Engineer template to the Captain's Spare? If the Cap's Spare was genuinely wiped of all access, this could have removed a bunch of accesses from it inadvertantly. RBasilisk's future actions definitely wiped the ID card, but I'm going to hazard guesses from all the information (**all** future access changes are engineering/CE related after you set the CE access template to an ID card) that by that point the Cap's Spare was now a Chief Engineer ID card.

kayozz · Post by **kayozz** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 2:17 am #658759

Sorry for checking the wrong logs. I honestly can't remember the issues with the ID card (both during the round or afterwards), I do remember telling someone to come into the HOP's office to do it themselves as I didn't want to make a mistake with the ID cards, because I'm not familiar with the HOP ID console. I think I may have tried to do it for a second or two maybe, then got confused and asked someone else to do it...

Again no real idea what happened, was just a bit miffed when you suggested that I purposely affected the round by wiping a card. It was never my intention nor was I aware at the time that such an issue had occured. I honestly don't go into the rounds to affect anyone's enjoyment or grief or greytide. Apologies if it did affect anything later in the round, but it was never my intention to ruin anything for anyone.
I did try and transition back to my normal role by leaving all the Cap's gear in a safe place so it wasn't lost... and I didn't suicide straight away, it was about an hour after joining when I had to leave and I announced that I was going to kill myself, so it's not like I just abandoned his stuff/my role - you can check I'm telling the truth in the chat logs :)

Tbh, even if you don't waiver the note (which is your choice obviously), can you at least rephrase it to 'accidentally' rather than purposely, so I don't get judged against it by another admin please? I want to keep a relatively clean record in my notes and don't want anyone to assume I'm a griefer. I don't want anyone thinking I immediately suicided and left the Captain's gear anywhere but a safe spot.
I'm only being cautious with this because if there's a similar incident in the future I don't want the way it's worded to weigh against my behaviour as a player here.

Thanks for understanding and replying.

Post by **Timberpoes** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:09 am #658768

I'm not the banning admin in this instance. Delaron is. Sorry if I didn't make that clear sooner. I'm just here as a subject matter expert on logging, access and ID cards.

Anything involving logs of this nature is technically complex to resolve, and will invole someone familiar with non-standard log files (like the fancy tgui logs linked above). I'm one such person as I basically wrote our current ID card and access code from scratch.

With 100% certainty the logs record you having accessed either an ID card console, or any ID card app on a modular computer, and trying to apply the Chief Engineer access template to an unknown ID card. All the circumstantial evidence suggests the Cap's Spare was a CE card by the time RBasilisk got ahold of it. There is doubt, but there is also strong circumstantial evidence you overwrote the Cap's Spare with CE accesses.

To be clear, I'm not accusing you of breaking the rules or doing anything to intentionally cause grief. It's difficult for an admin to draw a fair and proper conclusion without having all the relevant facts, and that's what I'm trying to find. If I thought you did it and then made an appeal lying, you'd know about it.

Do you recall messing with one of the ID card modding apps and could you have, even accidentally, overriden the Cap's Spare with Chief Engineer accesses?

If it was your actions that caused it, it's not the end of the world. Making a genuine one-off mistake in a role you're unfamiliar with when there are special extenuating circumstances like an understaffed lowpop, is much different to what the note thinks you did which is intentionally mess with the ID card to be a shitter and suiciding.

Post by **delaron** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:35 am #658781

I appreciate you taking the time to appeal the note and provide additional context. I am absolutely open to deleting or amending the note. Judt pending more feedback and answers to Timberpose's questions.

The tone was based on facts I had at hand and complaints recieved. I did look into it and didn't base the note soley off complaints. However as you were not there to defend or refute the actions I placed the note assuming the worst as a way to ensure you didn't make it a habit that went undocumented.

kayozz · Post by **kayozz** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:16 am #658788

Timberpoes wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 3:09 am I'm not the banning admin in this instance. Delaron is. Sorry if I didn't make that clear sooner. I'm just here as a subject matter expert on logging, access and ID cards.

Oops my bad for not reading properly.

Anything involving logs of this nature is technically complex to resolve, and will invole someone familiar with non-standard log files (like the fancy tgui logs linked above). I'm one such person as I basically wrote our current ID card and access code from scratch.

With 100% certainty the logs record you having accessed either an ID card console, or any ID card app on a modular computer, and trying to apply the Chief Engineer access template to an unknown ID card. All the circumstantial evidence suggests the Cap's Spare was a CE card by the time RBasilisk got ahold of it. There is doubt, but there is also strong circumstantial evidence you overwrote the Cap's Spare with CE accesses.

That may indeed be the case then. I remember feeling a tiny bit overwhelmed when someone asked for access and I invited them into the HOP office to sort it themselves, but in recollection I may have touched the ID machine for a second or two and perhaps pressed a button, before deciding it'd be much easier and quicker if they did it themselves. So my initial statement of 'not touching the ID machine' may be wrong now that I think about it. I think the chat logs will back this up too... I remember saying something like 'hey just come into the office and do it yourself' immediately afterwards.

To be clear, I'm not accusing you of breaking the rules or doing anything to intentionally cause grief. It's difficult for an admin to draw a fair and proper conclusion without having all the relevant facts, and that's what I'm trying to find. If I thought you did it and then made an appeal lying, you'd know about it.

No that's perfectly fine. I understand.

Do you recall messing with one of the ID card modding apps and could you have, even accidentally, overriden the Cap's Spare with Chief Engineer accesses?
If it was your actions that caused it, it's not the end of the world. Making a genuine one-off mistake in a role you're unfamiliar with when there are special extenuating circumstances like an understaffed lowpop, is much different to what the note thinks you did which is intentionally mess with the ID card to be a shitter and suiciding.

Only a vague memory of seeing the options on the GUI and thinking damn, I'll just let them do it themself so I don't mess things up. So yes it's possible I may have made a mistake there and wrecked the ID by accident, but I just want to reassure the admins I definitely did not intend to mess anything up and I hope with a bit of log-diving in the chats you can see I was trying to play it safe as 'acting cap' by securing the disk, asking the crew to be nice, allowing people to get access they needed etc and returning the Cap's gear to a safe place... So my intentions that round were definitely with the intent of not doing anything that would spoil or damage the round or hurt the crew, let alone wreck the Captain's spare ID.

I think my main concern with the note given is just how it's worded. As it suggests that I deliberately damaged the ID then immediately suicided and deliberately messed with in-game administration, which isn't the case at all. I tried to be as careful as possible.

kayozz · Post by **kayozz** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 7:22 am #658789

delaron wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:35 am I appreciate you taking the time to appeal the note and provide additional context. I am absolutely open to deleting or amending the note. Judt pending more feedback and answers to Timberpose's questions.

The tone was based on facts I had at hand and complaints recieved. I did look into it and didn't base the note soley off complaints. However as you were not there to defend or refute the actions I placed the note assuming the worst as a way to ensure you didn't make it a habit that went undocumented.

Thank you. And apologies for assuming you didn't look into it properly. Again you don't even need to delete the note really, just perhaps rephrase it to make it look a little bit less incriminating or painting me as a griefer. Because anyone reading that note in the future might assume I deliberately wrecked the ID, suicided immediately and damaged the round. But if anything I was trying to be careful and did everything I could to hand over the acting cap duty and the gear and ID before exiting the game.

I can assure you it's certainly not a habit from me and I like to learn from my mistakes. I always try and keep in mind that it's a multiplayer game and everything has a knock on effect for other people and that admins have a tough job sometimes. In fact there's a reason I play on MRP and that's because it has less griefers and shitters and grey-tiders than the average server.

I hope I've explained my side of things properly and I'm sorry for any confusion. If anything this is just a good reminder to never, ever, ever play HOP :)

So yeah, even if you just rephrased the note, I'd be happy. Thank you.

Post by **delaron** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:06 pm #658803

I am content to remove it as a non issue. The time stamps of the ID being messed up and you suiciding were closer and thus the mention in the note. This however all seems to be a miscommunication or lack of communication since you had to leave. Thanks again for taking time to provide additional context. Note has been removed.

kayozz · Post by **kayozz** » Mon Dec 12, 2022 4:11 pm #658804

Thank you and I'm sorry for the confusion in the first place, thanks for understanding :)

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