[That Engineer] SinfulBliss - Note Appeal

[sinfulbliss]

BYOND account: SinfulBliss
Character name: Axle Brady
Ban type: Note
Note reason:
Time ban was placed: 2022-12-15 08:35:31
Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil
Round ID in which ban was placed: 196327
Your side of the story: CMO comes up to me and sleepypens me then hypnos me with the objective "You are now part of the silicon empire. you answer to the demands of the AI and follow their lawset." Didn't know what the “silicon empire” was, didn’t know the AI's lawset and wasn't given any commands so just continued about doing atmos as usual (I was a traitor). I figured all this would mean for me is that I'm on the CMO's team, and the AI's. I assumed the CMO subverted the AI or something since why else would they include them in the "silicon empire." I didn't really think much of it though and continued doing atmos.

The shuttle got called early so I abandoned my plans and just made a powerfist. Killed a guy in departures that looked to have looted sec stuff. Later in shuttle I got attacked by like 4 people at different times and powerfisted them in response (it wasn't a "murder spree," it was self defense). I'm bwoinked and told that I'm supposed to follow Asimov. This is news to me, how was I supposed to know I was "Asimov" this whole time? It didn't really make sense for a tot CMO to be hypno'ing people to be loyal to an Asimov AI.

Why you think the note should be removed: I don't think I should've been noted for this, it's not like I had a direct way to find out my "laws" like a borg. I didn’t even think I was a borg, I thought it was some sort of silicon gang gimmick with the tot CMO lawing of people to be loyal to him and his subverted AI. Sure I could've asked the AI or CMO what the silicon lawset was, but I don't think the onus is on me to search for that. If I was hypno'd with the asimov laws themselves and still murdered people then I'd understand a note, but I wasn't. I was just hypno'd to follow some unknown "lawset."

Imagine if someone hypno'd you with the command " follow the rules written on the sheet of paper in the 60th room of Hilbert's Hotel." Imagine one rule said "no harming humans." Would you really be expected to follow this? I feel like if the command isn't in your hypno objective or told to you directly, you have no responsibility to be finding or following it.

[ThatEngineer]

I will have to stay strictly on keeping the note in place, because while it was not an unreasonable line of thought to believe that the CMO who made you get hypno'd to follow the AI had likely done some sort of subversion, it was equally possible the the CMO did not do such a thing. The issue was that you made no such effort to attempt to figure out the AI's laws via the AI or any of the Borgs that were around, and went on the assumption that the CMO must have put some sort of antagonist law in place. Going about the gimmick of being hypnotized to follow the AI by simply ignoring it, then doing your usual manner of killing people with a powerfist without any further investigation on if the AI was actually subverted or had it's laws changed from it's default of Asimov until you were bwoinked.

And to talk about your example of following the rules set on something inaccessible like in the 60th room of Hilbert's Hotel, were you to get brainwashed something as arbitrary or unknowable like that then you would be at no such fault to ignore it or treat the hypnosis as moot. However with the AI laws/law set, it was within feasible reason for you to learn or figure out the laws you were intended to follow. If not that, then following the default of Asimov in good faith would have sufficed if you truly couldn't figure out the AI's laws in any way within your capability.

However I should amend the note saying that you were already a traitor, as I realized the wording that I used there made it sound like you became an antag via hypnoflash. (Which was not the case) And I assumed the murder spree was your intent as I did not have the original context of your self defense, only the portion where you were beating up said four people.

[sinfulbliss]

I will have to stay strictly on keeping the note in place, because while it was not an unreasonable line of thought to believe that the CMO who made you get hypno'd to follow the AI had likely done some sort of subversion, it was equally possible the the CMO did not do such a thing. The issue was that you made no such effort to attempt to figure out the AI's laws via the AI or any of the Borgs that were around, and went on the assumption that the CMO must have put some sort of antagonist law in place.

So I'm forced to go find out the laws myself if I'm not told them? I don't see what requires me to make this effort. If he wanted me to follow separate laws outside of my hypno objectives he should've told me what laws they were.

If not that, then following the default of Asimov in good faith would have sufficed if you truly couldn't figure out the AI's laws in any way within your capability.

I am a traitor hypno'd by another traitor to join some "silicon empire" with a mystery lawset. Surely you can see how it would be sort of insane to assume this meant Asimov.

And I assumed the murder spree was your intent as I did not have the original context of your self defense, only the portion where you were beating up said four people.

Every one of these four people either tried to shoot me with a makarov/357 or axed me. I didn't go on a killing spree, I defended myself.

I don't think this is fair at all, I shouldn't have to go out my way to find "the rest" of my hypno objectives or risk getting noted for breaking them. I'd like a headmin review please.

[sinfulbliss]

Also the AI was pretty quiet the whole round, I just checked Scrubby and it looks like the AI left at the 10 minute mark, 30 full minutes before I was hypno'd. I wouldn't have gotten a response from them even if I did ask.

Spoiler:

So I guess you wanted me to hunt down a borg and then ask its laws so I could follow them? Except borgs can be synced to multiple AIs, or none. So what exactly would you have recommended I do short of breaking into the SAT and carding it?

[ThatEngineer]

So I guess you wanted me to hunt down a borg and then ask its laws so I could follow them? Except borgs can be synced to multiple AIs, or none. So what exactly would you have recommended I do short of breaking into the SAT and carding it?

The point I was attempting to make was that you made no effort of even asking over the radio on what the laws were, had you done that and gotten absolutely nothing, then it would have been fair to just go off on any assumption from that endpoint. Since it would effectively be unknowable short of you doing as you said, that being of course going to the AI sat and carding it. Also despite there being the chance of multiple AIs, that is not the common/norm of usual rounds and it wouldn't have mattered since it did not specify which AI you had to follow if there were multiple, so you couldn't be faulted for say following one over the other.

Now allow me to give a potential example, if you had mistakenly communicated with the wrong borg synced to a different AI than the CMO intended to get a lawset, then oh well for the guy who hypno'd you, at least you were following the hypnosis to some degree rather than disregarding it without so much as a second thought. In that previous hypothetical situation, there was some attempt made rather than what actually happened, which was you doing nothing at all.

[sinfulbliss]

So I guess you wanted me to hunt down a borg and then ask its laws so I could follow them? Except borgs can be synced to multiple AIs, or none. So what exactly would you have recommended I do short of breaking into the SAT and carding it?

The point I was attempting to make was that you made no effort of even asking over the radio on what the laws were, had you done that and gotten absolutely nothing, then it would have been fair to just go off on any assumption from that endpoint. Since it would effectively be unknowable short of you doing as you said, that being of course going to the AI sat and carding it. Also despite there being the chance of multiple AIs, that is not the common/norm of usual rounds and it wouldn't have mattered since it did not specify which AI you had to follow if there were multiple, so you couldn't be faulted for say following one over the other.

Now allow me to give a potential example, if you had mistakenly communicated with the wrong borg synced to a different AI than the CMO intended to get a lawset, then oh well for the guy who hypno'd you, at least you were following the hypnosis to some degree rather than disregarding it without so much as a second thought. In that previous hypothetical situation, there was some attempt made rather than what actually happened, which was you doing nothing at all.

A hypno objective that requires me to find out what my real hypno objectives are by hunting down borgs and trying to communicate to an inactive AI is not a hypno objective I should be noted for accidentally straying away from. If my only mistake was not asking an AI that had logged out "hey what's your lawset" then I'd ask why this is noteworthy.

A hypno victim should only be expected to know the info either A) in the hypno objective itself, or B) given directly to you from people you're slaved to. I would've had no issues pretending to be an Asimov borg if I was told to, but sadly I wasn't. That would've been really preferable considering now I'm in an appeals process because my hypnotizer didn't give me complete information.

[Vekter]

Nobody seems to have said this in this thread, so I'll chime in with it: Why would you ever not assume that your "laws" would be the standard default laws, ie Asimov?

[sinfulbliss]

Nobody seems to have said this in this thread, so I'll chime in with it: Why would you ever not assume that your "laws" would be the standard default laws, ie Asimov?

I am a traitor hypno'd by another traitor to join some "silicon empire" with a mystery lawset. Surely you can see how it would be sort of insane to assume this meant Asimov.

[spookuni]

We are not going to overturn this note.
Hypnotism carries with it a basic requirement for good faith and playing along with your given task, in the case of a hypnotism to follow an AI's lawset, that would entail making either an effort to discover the lawset by which you must abide, or to assume the default AI lawset until given reason to believe you follow another specific lawset.

Spook: Do not overturn
Rave: Do not overturn
San: Do not overturn