[epicgamer455] Alexander moore antags and the sm

[Blacklist897]

BYOND account: Blacklist897
Character name: Alexander Moore
Ban type: Note
Ban length: Permanant note
Ban reason:(MRP) As a Chief Engineer, proceeded to dust the body of a person that killed one person and attack him. While the actions of the person were antagonistic, dusting was not the proper punishment in this aspect and more steps should have been taken to continue the interaction in a more meaningful way (perma, etc). Was talked to in ahelps about this behavior and understood, but was warned that this behavior was frown upon (given their previous recent notes).
Time ban was placed: 2023-08-15 07:23:48
Server you were playing on when banned: Manuel
Round ID in which ban was placed: Round 212566
Your side of the story: So the dusted cargo tech made this thing called a big slappy, a giant wrench with fire axe damage and breaks things it hits. He made this and proceeded to smash things with it, until coming to Engineering and murdering an Atmos tech and critting an engi. At this point I tried to talk to them which they used as an opening to attack me with the slappy. After a sec officer and the other Engis plus Borgs killed them, I said SM them for killing the tech, I then gave the body to a Borg and told them to "take to sec or SM the body it's up to you", at this point the Borg threw them into the sm. Round end revealed that they were obsessed and the engi and A tech murder targets.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I think this Note should be at least reworded to display the full info or removed as two blatant murders of members of my department and attempting to kill me is a point where the Borg was justified to dust them on my indirect order to choose between the two options.

[Timberpoes]

Useful RP Rule Precedents

On what standard to apply:
RP Rule 4:

You can always defend yourself and others from violent antagonists.

Players that choose to act as security will be held to the same standards as security.

When a non-sec is acting in self-defense or reasonable defense of others around them vis-a-vis violent antagonists, security standards don't apply.

Sec standards may apply when a non-sec is doing vigilate actions, chasing antags past the point of reasonable conflict or being the primary aggressor.

Sec standards will almost always apply when a non-sec decides how to punish someone that has antagonistically wronged them.

On MRP punishments:

Security Policy & Precedents
* Security and Punishments.
** 2. Murder and Major Sabotage rank amongst the most severe of crimes and can generally be met with permanent imprisonment or death, though leniency can still be offered. These are all general guidelines, and the particular context of a situation can vary greatly, so you are given some leeway as to how harsh or lenient you can be.

On authorising execution
Rule 3 Precedents:

Security are expected by default to follow the orders of their superiors, especially when determining the punishment of those you apprehend. When determining severe punishments such as permanent incarceration or execution, make an effort to contact a superior if the situation permits it.

[Epicgamer545]

Hello,

Thank you for taking the time to make an appeal regarding your note. I decided to look at the things you pointed out and decided that more effort should have been taken to reword the note. I had not fully realized you delegated your orders and wasn't the exact person who dusted the person, however I still want to keep it clear that even in this case, I wanted to see more interaction rather than straight-up dusting. While the murders were blatant in question, I still strongly felt like skipping the line of perma and going over to dusting left a bad taste in my mouth, and I hope you can understand why. Plus, the lack of communication when dusting them was sort of empty, and I wished that you could have been more hesitant before giving your punishment and ordering the borg. You should not give the choice of "perma" and "dusting the body", because they both fall on a very different line of punishment that you should be aware of.

Anyway, enough talking, I'm planning to reword the note, so the events of the round are made clear.

This is your old note.

(MRP) As a Chief Engineer, proceeded to dust the body of a person that killed one person and attack him. While the actions of the person were antagonistic, dusting was not the proper punishment in this aspect and more steps should have been taken to continue the interaction in a more meaningful way (perma, etc). Was talked to in ahelps about this behavior and understood, but was warned that this behavior was frown upon (given their previous recent notes).

This is your new, reworded, note.

(MRP) As a Chief Engineer, proceeded to order a borg to choose to dust the body of a person that killed one person, critted another and attacked him. While the actions of the person were antagonistic, dusting was not the proper punishment in this aspect and more steps should have been taken to continue the interaction in a more meaningful way (perma, etc). Was talked to in ahelps about this behavior and understood, but was warned that this behavior was frown upon (given their previous recent notes).

Let me know what you think.

[Timberpoes]

The player mentioned:

... After a sec officer and the other Engis plus Borgs killed them, I said SM them for killing the tech, I then gave the body to a Borg ...

How involved were security in this overall? Did they know the CE's order to take them to sec or dust them and didn't care/oppose it, for example?

[Danny Delete-O]

The player mentioned:

... After a sec officer and the other Engis plus Borgs killed them, I said SM them for killing the tech, I then gave the body to a Borg ...

How involved were security in this overall? Did they know the CE's order to take them to sec or dust them and didn't care/oppose it, for example?

Hello, Timber i was one of the security officers this shift and directly involved in the end of the conflict, From my perspective i showed up to a report of a cargo tech going crazy with the big slapper and i showed up to them attacking engineering in their BSA den they created. I tried to arrest the CT who hit me with the slapper or i was knocked away by something, i got one stun off and then the engineers killed the CT, The CE then said something along the lines of fuck this im dusting them, they were basically the acting cap since the Captain was a cripple and was DNR in medbay at some point. I took no issue with this as the big slapper was used to just break stuff all shift and didnt care to intervene into the dusting. (I think that there were only 4 security staff at this point, 2 officers, 1 warden, and the detective.)

[Blacklist897]

I'm busy at the moment so I can't fully respond but I will state that that if it matters the borg was not Asimov but reporter and I was acting as captain as the actual one was dead or missing at this point. the sec officer who helped kill the attacker was fine with the dusting and left the body to me and the mob of borgs/engis

[Timberpoes]

Thanks for the replies!

[Blacklist897]

i would like to attempt to get this note removed as I think that breaking into engineering and killing/nearly killing two crewmembers before trying to kill in all effect the acting captain and head of engineering, is a crime that ic would end in execution and rr via SM or other means. as not only have they killed at least one of my subordinates but also failed to kill me as the acting cap

[Epicgamer545]

I am very hesitant for RR to be used, but now I believe that this note no longer serves anything what I was going for.

I'll be deleting the note later today.