[Arianya] AmazeTG - 1984

[AmazeTG]

BYOND account: AmazeTG
Character name: John Bald
Ban type: Server&Atmospherics/Science
Ban length: 3 days server ban and 7 days jobban
Ban reason: Banned for 3 days, banned from Atmospherics/Science for 7 days - as a Atmos Technician, created 5 single tank bombs near start of round "just in case" - they eventually used them to bomb some space pirates and killed a security officer in the crossfire. Talked about pre-emptive preparations and valid hunting.
Time ban was placed: 2023-08-31 15:19:26
Server you were playing on when banned: Terry
Round ID in which ban was placed: 213808
Your side of the story: Yes, i made 5 single tanks from roundstart and also filled 10 plasma tanks with mix for single tanks for the future. First, i used one single tank on dead heretic in space, that have been killed by security officers and HoS in CE's office. Then handled the head of heretic to HoS and was chilling for entire round, when pirates appeared near shuttle call. I took my atmos MOD and found pirates in arrivals. used 3 or 4 singletanks on their ship and killed 2 or 3 of them (Then sec officer ran onto ship and got bombed on crossfire without gib. I tried to take him to station, but another that was here took him.) There was a pirate cap, that was shooting at me, but i ran to station, so never seen him again. Then i got PM from admin and we talked. He told me that i killed officer and i am a bit valid-hunty. I told the admin that i guess officer got killed on accident, when he ran near my bomb. And told him that i made bombs just in case of any need in future. Then round ended and i jumped in next round, then needed to walk away from my PC, so i asked Arianya, if the problem was solved. They said that i was already noted and banned in past for maxcapping the wizard near bunch of people, so i can go but i will get ban anyway. I left the server, and when i was back checked ban reason and ban itself. Well, i was surprized, because i got banned from half of jobs (atmos and science) for 7 days and for 3 days from server.
Why you think you should be unbanned: I think this ban is inapropriate big, because as i checked, there is no rule against "valid hunt" on terry, LRP server. I think i deserve maximum ban for 1 day because of killing officer in crossfire, but again, he ran on pirate shuttle on himself, it is his fault in my opinion.
References of good conduct: -
Anything else we should know: As i checked and have been told by Striders13, this admin hasn't been online for a long time and may not even know that there is new rules(?) (didn't see any rule about validhunting on terry being banned) All i want - someone who will deal the situation with that big ban for almost nothing done in this round.

[TheRex9001]

Hey there! Sec off here, I will note that for this ban I got critted from the bomb, the hos then tried to save me but you threw me at a pirate and caused my death. I was low on health from a previous fight with a pirate and I since I didnt have a space suit I was relying on salylic acid and coffee to keep me alive.

[Misdoubtful]

This ban was placed for actions in round: R213806

What do you actually intend to accomplish by pointing out the activity of a gamemaster? Or was the intention just being spiteful? Please stay on course with the facts that actually matter in your appeal. Whatever that is, it provides absolutely nothing of any positive value.

I will say: there is a historical precedent of enforcement against doing things like going to extreme lengths to prepare for antagonists or prepare for what 'might happen' just because, as well as other things such as wardens not being allowed to lock down the brig round start without cause, preventing the AI from being able to plasma flood at round start because they might, the AI not being able to lock down the upload at roundstart, etc.

That being said a previous server ban was factored into this by the banning admin:

2023-08-14 18:25:05
Used a maxcap to kill a pacifist wizard in the centre of the station; resulting in the death of 4 innocents. I'm reducing from 4 days to 2 days since they genuinely thought they were doing the right thing, but I want to be clear now. You should only use a maxcap as a non-antag in an immediately round ending situation, like 9 cultists on a rune or a blob at 399 squares.

Your explosions for this (NOT max caps, single tanks, but regardless):

► Show Spoiler

02:45:03 GAME Explosion with size (2, 4, 6, 6) in (Space (164,35,2)). Possible cause: the plasma tank. Last fingerprints: amazetg/(John Bald).
02:45:06 GAME Explosion with size (2, 4, 6, 6) in (Space (181,40,2)). Possible cause: the plasma tank. Last fingerprints: amazetg/(John Bald).
02:45:42 GAME Explosion with size (2, 4, 6, 6) in (Pirate Shuttle (185,42,2)). Possible cause: the plasma tank. Last fingerprints: amazetg/(John Bald).
02:46:12 GAME Explosion with size (2, 4, 6, 6) in (Pirate Shuttle (187,41,2)). Possible cause: the plasma tank. Last fingerprints: amazetg/(John Bald).

Asay:

► Show Spoiler

[2023-08-31 14:45:56.749] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Archie700/(Angelina Holmes) "why are there so many explosions" (Pirate Shuttle (187,40,2))
[2023-08-31 14:46:28.108] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Arianya/(Aria Bollet) "John Bald made a bunch of single tanks earlier and looks like they're being used on the pirates now" (Pirate Shuttle (185,42,2))
[2023-08-31 14:46:50.062] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Arianya/(Aria Bollet) "I was a little concerned when they made like 5 single tanks at once" (Pirate Shuttle (185,42,2))
[2023-08-31 14:48:13.726] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Arianya/(Aria Bollet) "I'm not inclined to ping Bald over it pre-emptively but it was kinda valid-hunty to have a bunch of single tank bombs set up just in case" (Pirate Shuttle (185,42,2))
[2023-08-31 14:48:37.521] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Archie700/(Angelina Holmes) "check who died to tank bombs" (Cafeteria (126,159,2))
[2023-08-31 14:48:49.914] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Archie700/(Angelina Holmes) "I think at least one of them was security" (Fore Primary Hallway (131,163,2))
[2023-08-31 14:49:00.141] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Arianya/(Aria Bollet) "Yeah, one seccie and one ling pirate by the looks of it" (Pirate Shuttle (185,42,2))
[2023-08-31 14:49:09.424] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Archie700/(Angelina Holmes) "yeah no" (Cargo Lobby (157,150,2))
[2023-08-31 14:49:15.891] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Archie700/(Angelina Holmes) "that was carelessness" (Fore Central Primary Hallway (170,126,2))
[2023-08-31 14:49:25.394] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Arianya/(Aria Bollet) "I might just bwoink them about the bombs in general without bringing up who died to it because it kinda rubs me the wrong way" (Pirate Shuttle (185,42,2))
[2023-08-31 14:49:59.673] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Arianya/(Aria Bollet) "Unless you want it as part of your AC" (Pirate Shuttle (185,42,2))
[2023-08-31 14:50:14.645] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Archie700/(Angelina Holmes) "You're the GM, you lead in" (Space (67,87,2))
[2023-08-31 14:50:19.282] GAME-COMPAT: ADMINPRIVATE: ASAY: Arianya/(Aria Bollet) "Mmkay" (Vault (176,140,2))

Deaths that occurred during the same period of the explosions:

► Show Spoiler

01:48:19 MANIFEST MANIFEST: rex9001 \ Garry Garryson \ Security Officer \ NONE \ ROUNDSTART

02:42:01 ATTACK Sobakk/(Herp Sobakevitz) has died (BRUTE: 48, BURN: 166.9, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0) (189, 38, 2) Pirate Shuttle
02:45:06 ATTACK Roozbeh/(Scintillant Starhull) has died (BRUTE: 0, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0) (180, 41, 2) Space
02:45:42 ATTACK Raduser/(Radiant Ionsalt) has died (BRUTE: 67.7, BURN: 127, TOX: 34, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0) (187, 41, 2) Pirate Shuttle
02:45:55 ATTACK Cocothegog0/(Hans Heisenberg) has died (BRUTE: 65.1, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 141.1, CLONE: 0) (117, 106, 2) Port Maintenance
02:47:09 ATTACK Rex9001/(Garry Garryson) has died (BRUTE: 134.3, BURN: 81.2, TOX: 0, OXY: 3.33333, CLONE: 0) (92, 45, 2) Space
02:47:58 ATTACK Cocothegog0/(Hans Heisenberg) has died (BRUTE: 42.9, BURN: 0, TOX: 0, OXY: 162.386, CLONE: 0) (154, 88, 2) Medbay Treatment Center
02:48:26 ATTACK TypicalRig/(Coruscant Solarsalt) has died (BRUTE: 197.97, BURN: 17.6, TOX: 0, OXY: 0, CLONE: 0) (149, 44, 2) Space

Your tickets relating to this:

► Show Spoiler

Hiya, can I ask why you made a bunch of single tank bombs early on in the round?
arianya ➡ amazetg
2023-08-31T14:50:45
Sup. Needed to leave my PC for a minute. I made them for future events that may need single tanks. Is there any problem? It worked pretty well, killed some pirates right now.
amazetg ➡ arianya
2023-08-31T14:52:58
You also killed a security officer, and we generally frown upon making things like single tank bombs "just in case" - it falls afoul of being a bit valid hunt-y
arianya ➡ amazetg
2023-08-31T14:54:12
well, he ran into pirate ship. Fair nuff i guess. But why valid-hunty? I don't use them on anyone from station and never did. Just got a couple of. Don't you PM every chemist that have spare meth grenade in his pocket?
amazetg ➡ arianya
2023-08-31T14:55:50
If they constantly run around with meth grenades in their pocket, we would, but thats kinda besides the point - making preparations that are expressly for killing antagonists is something we frown on, beyond a certain point.
arianya ➡ amazetg
2023-08-31T14:56:47

► Show Spoiler

To continue our conversation, we generally prefer people not be making weapons to blow up antagonists pre-emptively - its fair enough if things are going down hill but you did this very early on.
arianya ➡ amazetg
2023-08-31T15:00:52
щл
amazetg ➡ arianya
2023-08-31T15:01:18
ok
amazetg ➡ arianya
2023-08-31T15:01:21
I notice this isn't your first bomb related incident so I'm gonna suggest you kinda lay off the explosives for a while, and more generally valid-y stuff.
arianya ➡ amazetg
2023-08-31T15:02:38
Alright, i heard you. Need to leave right now. The problem is solved or not yet?
amazetg ➡ arianya
2023-08-31T15:05:40
You're free to go, but I'll be hucking a ban out for the dead sec officer plus the pre-emptive bombs. Have a good one.
arianya ➡ amazetg
2023-08-31T15:06:30
Client disconnected
➡ amazetg
2023-08-31T15:06:48
Arianya/(Aria Bollet) has created a temporary 3 days server ban for AmazeTG.
arianya ➡ amazetg
2023-08-31T15:19:27
Resolved by Arianya
arianya ➡ Admins
2023-08-31T15:19:28

Regardless of the question of things being validhunty or not, the actions taken and your attitude towards the ticket would seemingly imply that there is now a trend presenting of carelessly killing crew with explosives as a non antagonist... Is this the case?

Alongside preparing plenty of single tank bombs without any other intended purpose just in case you needed them later... Is this true?

Even if the desire here is to argue the point of 'pre-emptive preparations and valid hunting', the rest of the ban / note text is still accurate. So you may want to also consider the rest of the ban's text besides 'there isn't a rule that specifically says you can't validhunt' as well the previous bomb related ban with this one. Like the issue of killing a security officer with said bombs.

This is here so that you can have the information to consider the full scope of the note and ban for your appeal, and to provide logs for said appeal.

[AmazeTG]

Regardless of the question of things being validhunty or not, the actions taken and your attitude towards the ticket would seemingly imply that there is now a trend presenting of carelessly killing crew with explosives as a non antagonist... Is this the case?

Things happened literally on pirate ship, where turrets may kill you, pirates may kill you, crossfire may lead to death. As Rex9001 said, he got critted because of my bomb. After that i tried to throw him at station, because there was people near window and i thought they may drag him in. I was acting in good faith, trying to literally save crew from pirates, what i succesfully did. As in case with maxcap and wizard, i even used my bomb not on station, literally on pirate shuttle. Antag ship. isn't it officer's fault that he ran on shuttle when someone fought with pirates? I understand, that it look like recidivism in case my last ban was about killing some innocents while killing wizard, but again, everything happened on pirate shuttle, where no crew supposed to be, only if they don't want to kill some pirates before they own death.

[AmazeTG]

So, i made some invsetigation with my "lawyer", and in addition to text above i have to proof that i was trying to make the officer alive. As Rex9001 said, he was relying on salicilic acid nad coffee to keep live, but as i said and logs do - they have been critted from my bomb, but he in fact died of salicilyc acid OD, even though he was throwed by me to station windows, the space and OD killed him. Also, as logs say - i threw him from tile 183, 37, 2 to 177, 42, 2. Everything happened on delta, so on screenshot we can see that he was in fact moved by me from the pirate shuttle to near the station in case i didn't want and didn't mean to kill him, my targets were pirates. In my opinion, i do not deserve such long punishment because of:
1. I made some of singletanks in case of some future events, that may damage station and it's crew. My last ban was for exploding the maxcap near wizard with some random victims, so i learned a lesson that explosives are dangerous, that's why i was making singletanks instead of maxcaps. Singletanks are still pretty dangerous and powerfull, so by making that amount (10 singletanks and 5 mixed tanks) i didn't even mean to use it on station, especially near some innocent crewmates. When real danger appeared (pirates) i did go to their shuttle and bombed it because i didn't even expected to someone be here, literally on antag ship. Especially without any EVA protection.
2. After i realized, that i exploded someone in crossfire and they didn't get gibbed, just critted, i tried to bring dying man to station's windows (not on station but to windows because there was some of the crewmates, and one pirate still was alive,), but he eventually died because of OD and space damage( i don't know what he even expected to go here without any EVA protection).
3. Again, i made singletanks not to validhunt some innocent crewmates that may shove me in wall and loot my gamer gear without any antag, no. I made singletanks to legally kill only, and only confirmed antags that may cause a lot of damage, optionally in space, so not a single person may die because of a hull breach. And so i did. Rex9001 just appeared in wrong place in wrong time without any basic protective gear against space and pirate danger (at least security MOD would help him a lot in that case).
I guess that's all i can say in my defence here, and i think that's enough to understand what i wanted to message you. I hope so, because english is not my native language and i learned it on myself.

[Arianya]

Hiya, thanks for the appeal!

To explain some of the background behind this, its worth noting that explosives have always been treated as an extreme option, the more destructive they are, the more dangerous they are considered and the more you're playing with fire by using them, even against antagonists!

The bombs you were using in this case (single tanks with size 2, 4, 6, 6) are obviously not as bad as maxcaps, but they can still leave quite a hole in the station if used in them, and can certainly catch and even gib innocent bystanders.

With this in mind, cases that might be acceptable with lesser weapons become rapidly unacceptable with explosives. In this case, the fact that you "only" crit the security officer while dealing with an antagonist isn't really the point - they died, in large part of your bombs. As it happens, you're wrong about it being either salicylic acid or space that killed him - he was in fact beaten to death by a pirate after you critted him, but to claim this absolves you for critting him is, frankly, sophistry. You critted him, and so everything that happened after was your fault.

If this was a more edge case (punching someone at 1 HP and then they get eaten by a xeno while in crit) then I might have dismissed even looking into this - but two factors make this a higher burden on you - the use of explosives, and your previous history with explosives as quoted by Misdoubtful.

To explain the reasoning behind the specific bans chosen, the server ban was due to a repeated incidence of innocent deaths as a result of explosives - generally when something happens repeatedly, we start escalating our bans to make it clear that it's not a case of "teehee I broke [rule], time to pay the ban tax" - if a line of consistent bad behaviour continues, it can result in a perma ban eventually if someone clearly has no intent to change.

The atmos and science ban, meanwhile, are to limit your access to explosives (and yes, I know there are other ways to access explosives, botany mains) - partially to encourage you to explore other playstyles but also to emphasize that the issue is in part the explosives, not just the effects they had. The length here is influenced by two things - one, that a role ban runs concurrently with your server ban, so a 3 day server ban 4 day role ban would in effect only actually ban you from a role for one day, and two that role bans are generally treated more lightly than server bans - you can still connect to the server during one, and play the game, so running them a bit longer allows for it to be felt a bit more as a corrective measure.

With regard to "there is no rule against "valid hunt" on terry", I need to point out Rule 12 first and foremost:

The purpose of the game is to have fun roleplaying. Play-to-win gameplay that ruins the purpose of the game at the expense of others is against the rules.
1. Playing-to-win is to focus exclusively on a competitive victory condition, such as killing all antagonists. It is not empowering yourself to achieve personal goals, or taking measures to survive the shift

I apologize for using the term valid hunt in my note and our in game conversation - I realize English isn't your first language and using slang-y terms like "valid hunt" could have made it more difficult for you to understand what the issue is - but effectively, the point is that as much as SS13 is a game about "winning" by defeating the antagonists of the round, the game design and everyone's enjoyment of the game flourishes on people not playing in a way that eliminates options for others for no other reason than to "win".

While this line can often be a little blurry (as precedent 1 says, you're entirely allowed to take measures to survive the shift, as many people often do) - pre-emptive explosives that are for, to quote you from our ticket (posted above by Misdoubtful) "[...] for future events that may need single tanks.[...]" is behaviour that steps pretty sharply outside of "surviving".

Now, to be clear, the majority of what got you a server ban and role ban here was the repeated misuse of bombs and the killing of the sec officer - obviously the pre-emptive nature does colour my impression of the entire affair, but the mention in the note of "Talked about pre-emptive preparations and valid hunting." is specifically to note that we've discussed this now, so other admins can be aware you've had a heads-up about it. Because I don't want you to eat a future ban/other punishment over this kind of behaviour, so I wanted to head you off now - there's nothing else in your recent note history about this.

I hope this all makes sense - in terms of appeal, I don't see much here to suggest reducing the length, but I am inclined to reword it to make it clearer what we talked about - would there be any other changes to the note you would find useful?

[Arianya]

Hi, I've not heard anything back on this since my last post - as a result I'm locking it and considering it resolved unless a headmin interjects. Per my last post, I've made a change to the note so it now reads:

Banned from the server for 3 days - Banned for 3 days, banned from Atmospherics/Science for 7 days - as a Atmos Technician, created 5 single tank bombs near start of round "just in case" - they eventually used them to bomb some space pirates and killed a security officer in the crossfire. Talked to about proper bomb use (catching others in crossfire) and Rule 12 issues.

Hope this all makes sense, thank you for your appeal!