[Vekter] SinfulBliss - chloral hydrate kills

[sinfulbliss]

BYOND account: sinfulbliss

Character name: axle brady

Note type: Permanent

Note reason: In round 215210, crit, dismembered, and looted a doctor because they shot them with a 15u chloral hydrate syringe to stop them from beating a clown to death. The clown was already far into crit at the point when they were shot. Claims they believed the doctor was an antagonist because they consider chloral to be a "lethal chemical", despite the fact that 15 units isn't enough to leave you knocked out long enough to do any toxin damage. Found no antagonist gear on them when they looted them but still chose to dismember them and deliver them to medical. This is an over-escalation; you had no reason to consider the doctor an antagonist.

Time ban was placed: 2023-09-25 04:58:15

Server you were playing on when banned: Sybil

Round ID in which ban was placed: 215210

Your side of the story: Begins with me on a call with a clown, he's hiding somewhere saying he's lost in maintenance. I eventually find him while still on the call and it turned out to be a prank, he was just in bar maint on his little holo phone. Also before he hung up he was like kill yourself NOW (I didn't care he's a clown but that probably opens him up to getting shoved and stuff by me which you kindly have pointed out occured in the logs). At SOME point after this, I'm not sure what had occurred up to here because I didn't record the round, he was hitting me and Chloe with a shock hand from genetics. It was empowered or something too, it did a lot of damage and ricocheted off several people. So really it hit several people. Justifiably we then began beating him.

So I'm hitting the clowno Ponzo with a grappling hook along with Chloe, when a chemist out of no where walks up and shoots me with a syringe of something. I immediately run to get multiver, and come back to chase him down. I beat him to crit before asking him what was inside the syringe. During this process I'm also removing (not "looting") his items to search him. He tells me the syringe was full of chloral. Chloral hydrate is a kill chem, it is not a harmless morphine night-night chem, it is not pax, it is a poison that you shoot at people you want to kill. Regardless of whether it can kill on its own or not, if you need 20u, 25u or whatever it is, I have literally never seen chloral used as anything except an agent of death. It's in sleepypens for a reason. Shot at me by someone that 1) I had zero prior interactions with, 2) was completely silent before shooting me, and 3) is currently banned for metagrudging me (although this didn't factor into my subsequent actions, I believe it should factor into the mens rea of our chemist). Initially after being hit I immediately thought perhaps he's a traitor, or maybe I'm a heretic target and he's using the chaos of my fight with the clown as cover to kill me. Why else would a complete stranger shoot you with chloral?

Because he's an antagonist, surely -- there could be no other justifiable reason for someone to walk up to you unannounced and shoot you with a syringe of chloral (unless you consider the whole metagrudging angle, which he's currently banned for also, but I digress). So I treated him as an antagonist, albeit I didn't RR him on the off-chance he wasn't, I just cut him up pretty badly so he would take longer to revive (keep in mind: I am inside lower medbay, I have just killed him, and I believe he is an antagonist, so delimbing should not be overescalation here). I then give him to the doctors, and leave.

Why you think the note should be removed: I will offer several reasons.

(1) If a total stranger tries to kill you or severely harm you, with zero prior interactions, they are acting like an antagonist.
(2) Shooting a syringe of chloral at someone wordlessly qualifies as trying to kill or severely harm them, and therefore they are acting like an antagonist.
(3) "Finding no antagonist gear" is completely irrelevant to whether or not their action was acting like an antag. Heretics often have no gear, traitors don't need to buy gear, lings have no gear -- this shouldn't factor into the decision whatsoever.
(4) Vekter claims I should have realized they shot me in order to incapacitate me, because I was punching the clown. I disagree. Chloral hydrate is a lethal chem -- it isn't a baton or a morphine syringe. It has lethal intent. So incapacitation as a motive was right out for me. More importantly I have no reason to expect a random person to poison me over this -- they have no context, they're uninvolved, they didn't even see the clown using their shockhands from earlier. They should have no part in the conflict. They didn't utter a word. Their only possible role here to me was "opportunist," trying to make off with an unnoticed kill during the chaos, which happens often on LRP.
(5) Even if you assume for whatever reason they weren't acting like an antag: Damaging someone further after you kill them is covered by escalation rules.

A player who uses the state of incapacitation to take further action against the downed party chooses to extend the ongoing conflict past its original endpoint, and opens themselves up to further reprisal to avenge damage or recover stolen possessions.

If I had only killed them, the conflict would have ended. In choosing to delimb them I opened myself up to them avenging themselves after being revived. To restate it again, I chose to damage them further after they died because I don't believe 2 minutes on stasis is a proportional response to trying to murder me for no reason. Nor is it how you'd treat an antagonist.

Anything else we should know: The chemist who shot me with the chloral syringe is currently banned for metagrudging me and some other bad shit.

[Vekter]

Hi, thanks for appealing. I will respond in the morning but I don't intend on lifting this. If you would like me to reword it to be more fair in your eyes go ahead and suggest something, otherwise I'll post logs and everything tomorrow afternoon.

[sinfulbliss]

Hi, thanks for appealing. I will respond in the morning but I don't intend on lifting this. If you would like me to reword it to be more fair in your eyes go ahead and suggest something, otherwise I'll post logs and everything tomorrow afternoon.

I would like it removed for the (6) reasons I offered. If you've already made up your mind not to lift it then I'll probably be requesting headmin review, but I'm willing to hear your response.

[Vekter]

Hi, thanks for appealing. I will respond in the morning but I don't intend on lifting this. If you would like me to reword it to be more fair in your eyes go ahead and suggest something, otherwise I'll post logs and everything tomorrow afternoon.

I would like it removed for the (6) reasons I offered. If you've already made up your mind not to lift it then I'd like to request headmin review please.

I'm going to explain why those reasons are insufficient tomorrow also the player's actions in later rounds are irrelevant here just putting that out there have a good night

[iamgoofball]

Hello, coder here to provide objective truth in this case about Chloral Hydrate because Chloral Hydrate's name is being besmirched in this PR.

The full code of Chloral Hydrate, spoilered.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate
	name = "Chloral Hydrate"
	description = "A powerful sedative that induces confusion and drowsiness before putting its target to sleep."
	silent_toxin = TRUE
	reagent_state = SOLID
	creation_purity = REAGENT_STANDARD_PURITY
	purity = REAGENT_STANDARD_PURITY
	color = "#000067" // rgb: 0, 0, 103
	toxpwr = 0
	metabolization_rate = 1.5 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM
	ph = 11
	inverse_chem = /datum/reagent/impurity/chloralax
	chemical_flags = REAGENT_CAN_BE_SYNTHESIZED

/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate/on_mob_life(mob/living/carbon/affected_mob, seconds_per_tick, times_fired)
	switch(current_cycle)
		if(1 to 10)
			affected_mob.adjust_confusion(2 SECONDS * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			affected_mob.adjust_drowsiness(4 SECONDS * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
		if(10 to 50)
			affected_mob.Sleeping(40 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			. = TRUE
		if(51 to INFINITY)
			affected_mob.Sleeping(40 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			affected_mob.adjustToxLoss(1 * (current_cycle - 50) * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick, FALSE, required_biotype = affected_biotype)
			. = TRUE
	..()

The important sections we care about here:

Code: Select all

/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate
	name = "Chloral Hydrate"
	description = "A powerful sedative that induces confusion and drowsiness before putting its target to sleep."
	toxpwr = 0
	metabolization_rate = 1.5 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM

/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate/on_mob_life(mob/living/carbon/affected_mob, seconds_per_tick, times_fired)
	switch(current_cycle)
		if(1 to 10)
			affected_mob.adjust_confusion(2 SECONDS * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			affected_mob.adjust_drowsiness(4 SECONDS * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
		if(10 to 50)
			affected_mob.Sleeping(40 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			. = TRUE
		if(51 to INFINITY)
			affected_mob.Sleeping(40 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick)
			affected_mob.adjustToxLoss(1 * (current_cycle - 50) * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick, FALSE, required_biotype = affected_biotype)
			. = TRUE
	..()

The metabolization rate of a chemical is how many chemicals are purged per tick, or in more player-friendly terms, how many ticks it takes to fully remove a chemical from your body.
1.5 * REAGENTS_METABOLISM is 1.5 * 0.2 per https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... bs.dm#L463
So, you lose 0.3 units of Chloral Hydrate a tick.

As you can see by the on_mob_life of chloral hydrate, it checks the current cycle every tick. current_cycle is the number of ticks the chemical has been in your body since it was most recently added, ie. how many ticks since you were first injected this time. If you run out of the chemical and reinject it, current_cycle resets back down to 0. Current cycle is equal to the number of ticks it's been in your system.

As you can see, for the first 1 to 50 ticks in your system, Chloral Hydrate does zero damage.

Chloral Hydrate only begins attempting to damage you after it has been in your system for 51 or more ticks.

Code: Select all

1 * (current_cycle - 50) * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick

Let's break down that equation for damage, because it looks complicated.

Code: Select all

1 * 1 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * seconds_per_tick

The base damage is 1. We then multiply that by current_cycle - 50. So, assuming you just ticked over to the 51th tick, that's 51 - 50, which the astute in the audience will realize is 1.
We are now at 1 * 1 * REM * normalize_creation_purity * seconds_per_tick.
Seconds per tick is a input variable to deal with time scaling and the fact that byond ticks do not cleanly line up with seconds. This is usually 2 because there's on average 2 seconds per tick, so let's put that in there.

Code: Select all

1 * 1 * REM * normalise_creation_purity() * 2

REM is defined here:
https://github.com/tgstation/tgstation/ ... bs.dm#L465
It's a complicated thing to deal with old chemistry behavior and shit. All we need to know here is it is 0.2 / 0.4 at the time of this post, equalling 0.5.

Code: Select all

1 * 1 * 0.5 * normalise_creation_purity() * 2

normalise_creation_purity() is a proc that runs to determine the purity impact and returns between 1 to 0. Let's assume for the sake of argument this Chloral Hydrate was 100% pure free range chloral hydrate he harvested from botany and therefore was 100% pure.

Code: Select all

1 * 1 * 0.5 * 1 * 2

Now, let's run through that equation with good ol' PEMDAS, right to left.
1 * 1 is 1.
1 * 0.5 is 0.5.
0.5 * 1 is 0.5.
0.5 * 2 is 1.

That means that the damage is 1 on the 51st tick of Chloral Hydrate, and can only ever be 1 or lower.

Now, the chemist shot you with 15 units of Chloral Hydrate.

Remember when we calculated metabolism? That metabolizes out every tick in that ..() at the end of on_mob_life.

What's 15 / 0.3? Why, that's 50.
So, assuming you ticked 51 times, the maximum damage you could possibly take from a 15u chloral hydrate syringe, if it was the only syringe you had in you, would be 1 tox damage.

To verify this and actually determine at what point Chloral Hydrate becomes lethal, I went ahead and used my 10 years of programming experience to make a simulator for chloral hydrate inflicted death.

As you can see, one 15u chloral hydrate syringe literally cannot kill you. It can do, at most, exactly 1 toxin damage. So no, a 15u chloral hydrate syringe is, factually, non-lethal.
For context, punches do 3 to 5 damage a punch.

And because I know it'll be brought up, you are told what syringe is being shot at you and hits you in very large red text when you are shot with a syringe.
Here is the section of code where we rename projectiles fired from the syringe gun to the name of the syringe, which would include the type of syringe and thus tell you if it's a normal 15u syringe or an expanded capacity bluespace syringe capable of holding lethal doses of Chloral Hydrate.

The code is below in the spoiler if you wish to check my work. The results speak for themselves.

Spoiler:

Code: Select all

if __name__ == "__main__":
    crit = 100
    death = 200
    damage_dealt = 0
    syringe_volume = 15
    metab_rate = 0.3
    current_syringe = 0
    num_of_syringes = 0
    current_cycle = 0
    crit_triggered = False
    total_processed = 0
    seconds_elapsed = 0
    while damage_dealt < death:
        if current_cycle >= 51:
            damage_dealt += (1 * (current_cycle - 50) * 0.5 * 1 * 2)
        current_syringe += metab_rate
        total_processed += metab_rate
        seconds_elapsed += 2
        if syringe_volume <= current_syringe:
            num_of_syringes += 1
            current_syringe = 0
        current_cycle += 1
        if damage_dealt > crit and not crit_triggered:
            print("At cycle " + str(current_cycle) + " with " + str(num_of_syringes+(current_syringe/syringe_volume)) + " syringes for a total of "+ str(total_processed) +"u, entered crit. This took " + str(seconds_elapsed) + " seconds.")
            crit_triggered = True
    print("At cycle " + str(current_cycle) + " with " + str(num_of_syringes+(current_syringe/syringe_volume)) + " syringes for a total of "+ str(total_processed) +"u, died. This took " + str(seconds_elapsed) + " seconds.")

[iamgoofball]

So I'm hitting the clowno Ponzo with a grappling hook along with Chloe, when a chemist out of no where walks up and shoots me with a syringe of something. I immediately run to get multiver, and come back to chase him down. I beat him to crit before asking him what was inside the syringe.

Just wanna note here, per log you were shot with the syringe in the Medical Treatment Center. Here's a diagram for the viewers.



Chemists are a member of the Medical Department.

You and Chloe were Assistants, who were not members of the medical department.

!	Message from: Timberpoes
	Minor snip of a borderline peanutty part.

[iamgoofball]

After defeating the chemist, you cuffed him and beat him into crit


you then proceed to handcuff him while he's in crit, and ask him what was in the syringe gun


the chemist tells you that it was chloral because you were killing people in medbay over words

you then began stabbing him with a screwdriver until he died

then you shot him with two more chloral syringes, then began removing his limbs


this is a factual retelling of the events of the murder

[iamgoofball]

Anything else we should know: The chemist who shot me with the chloral syringe is currently banned for metagrudging me and some other bad shit.

also, to back this up, the chemist was being a weirdo about axle brady in this very round, but the last 2 of these three are post-murder
before murder:

after:

[sinfulbliss]

Thanks Goof for the logs, some important corrective measures:

(1) That is not where the syringing happened to my recollection. I was right outside the left medbay door, with the clown below me two tiles inside med (the grappling hook can hit someone two tiles away) off to the right. The shooter was below me, not above me. He stopped below the left door, froze for a moment, then shot me wordlessly (he was shooting upwards).

(2) The last two comments he uttered are pretty harmless, plus I was dead at that point anyway. The first one “pre-murder” is significantly weirder.

(3) To my knowledge and to the knowledge of many people I know, chloral is a chem used for killing. If it turns out I was wrong and 15u is just sleep, and in fact a good bit more is needed to actually kill - I am surprised, but I still believe shooting a random stranger with poison wordlessly is both against escalation rules and also acting like an antag. If it is not, I still would refer to reason (5) I list in the OP.

(4) Re: “folding people in medbay over words” — I have really no idea what he’s talking about. What does it mean to fold someone. If it means kill, I wasn’t killing the clown ‘over words,’ I don’t even remember the clown speaking during this since I believe he was crit and unable to, I was beating him because he had been attacking me and several others with the shock hand. So this did not explain to me what the chemist had done, in fact now that I read it in retrospect I believe he is referring to his own words and the killing of himself, because as the logs show he did say some foul words to me before deciding to syringe me. But obviously the primary reason I had just crit him was because he randomly shot me with a syringe of poison, so his comment doesn’t make sense no matter how you slice it.

Also before I get into a 6-post-long posting war with whoever it is, I respectfully ask I only have to engage with Vekter about this and whatever headmin is eventually called if that’s deemed necessary.

[Vekter]

Well, I was going to post a bunch of logs and shit, but Goof made my job easier for me. Let me address each of your points from the OP in turn, then we'll look at your response to Goof's posts.

(1) If a total stranger tries to kill you or severely harm you, with zero prior interactions, they are acting like an antagonist.
(2) Shooting a syringe of chloral at someone wordlessly qualifies as trying to kill or severely harm them, and therefore they are acting like an antagonist.

We've already established that chloral hydrate cannot kill you at the amount that fits in a syringe. This is also removing any context about you being in the middle of beating the piss out of the clown. Your opinion on the matter is completely irrelevant to the facts. You made a mistake because you didn't have all of the facts and were punished for it.

(3) "Finding no antagonist gear" is completely irrelevant to whether or not their action was acting like an antag. Heretics often have no gear, traitors don't need to buy gear, lings have no gear -- this shouldn't factor into the decision whatsoever.

This is relevant to the terms of how we enforce rule 4, as if you had found something incriminating on him, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

(4) Vekter claims I should have realized they shot me in order to incapacitate me, because I was punching the clown. I disagree. Chloral hydrate is a lethal chem -- it isn't a baton or a morphine syringe. It has lethal intent. So incapacitation as a motive was right out for me. More importantly I have no reason to expect a random person to poison me over this -- they have no context, they're uninvolved, they didn't even see the clown using their shockhands from earlier. They should have no part in the conflict. They didn't utter a word. Their only possible role here to me was "opportunist," trying to make off with an unnoticed kill during the chaos, which happens often on LRP.

See above. Chloral hydrate is not a lethal chem unless used in higher doses than was used here. It is also arguably the only thing that was available to the person who shot you with it, as morphine takes longer to make and they didn't have any prepped.

(5) Even if you assume for whatever reason they weren't acting like an antag: Damaging someone further after you kill them is covered by escalation rules.

This is a valid point, and I'll leave it up to the head admins to determine whether or not that's the case, but the fact that you're talking about how you "don't believe 2 minutes on stasis is a proportional response to trying to murder me for no reason" is extremely concerning and part of why I placed this note. Your actions have nothing to do with the player in question being an antagonist. You were angry that they interrupted you killing the clown, so you punished them for it. I would argue that, even if this isn't an over-escalation issue, it's definitely a rule 1 issue.

Now, your points post-Goof:

(1) That is not where the syringing happened to my recollection. I was right outside the left medbay door, with the clown below me two tiles inside med (the grappling hook can hit someone two tiles away) off to the right. The shooter was below me, not above me. He stopped below the left door, froze for a moment, then shot me wordlessly (he was shooting upwards).

This is completely irrelevant. This is like saying "I thought I used the restroom!" when the security cameras catch you taking a dump in aisle five. Goof is getting his information directly from the game's logs as to where you and Turbo were located when you were shot with a syringe. This also introduces the fact that you were being disruptive to medical by beating the clown into crit directly in the treatment center, which gives the chemist yet another completely valid reason to knock you out.

(2) The last two comments he uttered are pretty harmless, plus I was dead at that point anyway. The first one “pre-murder” is significantly weirder.

This is true, but only relevant to his actions in the following rounds, not this appeal.

(3) To my knowledge and to the knowledge of many people I know, chloral is a chem used for killing. If it turns out I was wrong and 15u is just sleep, and in fact a good bit more is needed to actually kill - I am surprised, but I still believe shooting a random stranger with poison wordlessly is both against escalation rules and also acting like an antag. If it is not, I still would refer to reason (5) I list in the OP.

We've already covered this. Your knowledge was incomplete, which is fine. Clearly I don't know enough about chems to know the specifics on how this one works. The fact of the matter is that you were very clearly wrong about the chemical being inherently lethal. You made a mistake and a judgement call without all of the facts. It ended up being the wrong call.

(4) Re: “folding people in medbay over words” — I have really no idea what he’s talking about. What does it mean to fold someone. If it means kill, I wasn’t killing the clown ‘over words,’ I don’t even remember the clown speaking during this since I believe he was crit and unable to, I was beating him because he had been attacking me and several others with the shock hand. So this did not explain to me what the chemist had done, in fact now that I read it in retrospect I believe he is referring to his own words and the killing of himself, because as the logs show he did say some foul words to me before deciding to syringe me. But obviously the primary reason I had just crit him was because he randomly shot me with a syringe of poison, so his comment doesn’t make sense no matter how you slice it.

You're right in that this isn't really relevant to the matter at hand, since the reason you and the clown got into it isn't relevant and you had a perfectly valid reason to attack the chemist after they knocked you out. I imagine Goof's posts are going to be pruned for peanut content, but I'd ask the headmins to leave what they can, as it's very important to the case I'm making. For context's sake though, "folding someone" just means to beat them severely.

So again, I'm denying this. You decided to de-limb the chemist and keep his gear (Which is looting; you didn't put his stuff back on him or give it to medical for when he was revived) because you were pissed at them for interrupting your clown murder fun times. It had nothing to do with whether or not they were an antagonist. This fits a worrying trend I and other people have noticed of you going out of your way to negatively impact peoples' rounds when you're not an antagonist because you think you're in the clear to do so.

[Vekter]

I'm double posting and you can't stop me.

I'm going to edit the note per recommendation of a few people to stress that this was happening smack dab in the middle of medbay, since I think it's relevant to why the chemist shot you and why I don't think it was an antagonistic move.

In round 215210, crit, dismembered, and looted a doctor because they shot them with a 15u chloral hydrate syringe to stop them from beating a clown to death smack dab in the middle of medbay. The clown was already far into crit at the point when they were shot. Claims they believed the doctor was an antagonist because they consider chloral to be a "lethal chemical", despite the fact that 15 units isn't enough to leave you knocked out long enough to do any toxin damage. Found no antagonist gear on them when they looted them but still chose to dismember them and deliver them to medical. This is an over-escalation; you had no reason to consider the doctor an antagonist.

[sinfulbliss]

Chloral hydrate is not a lethal chem unless used in higher doses than was used here. It is also arguably the only thing that was available to the person who shot you with it, as morphine takes longer to make and they didn't have any prepped.

Morphine is literally available roundstart. It is sitting on a table in medbay storage in a bottle, or in the vendors. It is completely free, and you can also buy some for cheap from vendors. 30u of it, enough for two syringes. He absolutely did not need to prep chloral, which is known to most people as a poison, and listed on the chem wiki as a toxin.

(5) Even if you assume for whatever reason they weren't acting like an antag: Damaging someone further after you kill them is covered by escalation rules.

This is a valid point, and I'll leave it up to the head admins to determine whether or not that's the case, but the fact that you're talking about how you "don't believe 2 minutes on stasis is a proportional response to trying to murder me for no reason" is extremely concerning and part of why I placed this note. Your actions have nothing to do with the player in question being an antagonist. You were angry that they interrupted you killing the clown, so you punished them for it. I would argue that, even if this isn't an over-escalation issue, it's definitely a rule 1 issue.

Let me clarify what I mean then. If I were aware that he was just trying to incapacitate me because he wanted me to stop punching the clown, I would have maybe crit him and chucked him to medbay. Although he has told you this after the fact in ahelps, I did not have the privilege of knowing this, because he unfortunately didn't utter a word before running up and shooting me with poison.

(2) The last two comments he uttered are pretty harmless, plus I was dead at that point anyway. The first one “pre-murder” is significantly weirder.

This is true, but only relevant to his actions in the following rounds, not this appeal.

That is not correct. The first log posted by Goof, the particularly perverted one, was at 7:06:02. He shot me at 7:06:35. But if you accepted that saying perverted shit like this opened people up to further escalation, we clearly wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with.

(1) That is not where the syringing happened to my recollection. I was right outside the left medbay door, with the clown below me two tiles inside med (the grappling hook can hit someone two tiles away) off to the right. The shooter was below me, not above me. He stopped below the left door, froze for a moment, then shot me wordlessly (he was shooting upwards).

This is completely irrelevant. This is like saying "I thought I used the restroom!" when the security cameras catch you taking a dump in aisle five. Goof is getting his information directly from the game's logs as to where you and Turbo were located when you were shot with a syringe. This also introduces the fact that you were being disruptive to medical by beating the clown into crit directly in the treatment center, which gives the chemist yet another completely valid reason to knock you out.

I wouldn't be surprised if there were inaccuracies in the exact location of the logs, but since I can't disprove it without a recording I'll just assume I'm misremembering. Regardless of it being in medbay, that shouldn't make the clown immune to escalation. Medbay is not a metaprotected area like the dorms on Skyrat or something, I was completely within my rights continuing to attack the clown based on our prior history I went over in the OP, and him being in medbay doesn't change that.

You are assuming complete good-faith play on the part of the chemist here, whereas you have assumed bad-faith play on my part. Accusing me of lying for not remembering a shove in the ticket, yet it doesn't cross your mind for a second that the guy who got banned for metagrudging me two rounds later might have shot me because, yknow, he was metagrudging me, and not because he gave a flying fuck about the clown getting hit with a 5 force grappling hook. I am sure he would have reacted this way if it were anyone else, nevermind the fact he made a comment prior to shooting me which was in the same genre of the shit that got him in trouble later. Do you genuinely believe he was just trying to protect a clown he had never seen before?

We've already covered this. Your knowledge was incomplete, which is fine. Clearly I don't know enough about chems to know the specifics on how this one works. The fact of the matter is that you were very clearly wrong about the chemical being inherently lethal. You made a mistake and a judgement call without all of the facts. It ended up being the wrong call.

I was incorrect about the specifics of chloral, but I don't think I reacted abnormally in the situation. Getting hit by a random knockout syringe by someone you have no prior interactions with, aside from them saying some weird shit, for a reason you do not know because they have refused to speak or explain themselves, is grounds for the treatment they received.

You decided to de-limb the chemist and keep his gear (Which is looting; you didn't put his stuff back on him or give it to medical for when he was revived)

His stuff was left on the ground where he was stripped. Immediately after he was revived he asked the doc to let him into morgue maint and he recovered all his items. Just because I didn't act as his personal servant (and why would I?) and hand deliver all his items doesn't mean I looted them.

[...]because you were pissed at them for interrupting your clown murder fun times. It had nothing to do with whether or not they were an antagonist.

I would prefer you didn't put words in my mouth. I didn't really care much about the clown, I wasn't actually angry at him at all OOC, we had a pretty fun round even after that and he was a funny roleplayer (after losing a leg he said 'I guess you guys have a leg up on me!' and other clowny puns). But yes, I was pretty taken aback by the random stranger shouting vile shit at me and then out of nowhere shooting me with a chloral syringe without a single word of explanation. That gave me an inkling they were either an antagonist, or a massive shitter, and on the offchance they were just a massive shitter, I brought them back to medbay in (less than) one piece for the doctors to fix.

I would like to stress here. All he had to do was utter a single word to tip me off that his goal was to stop me from beating the clown and not to kill me. Literally a simple "Stop!" But instead his choice was 'SAY Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) "axle is well known as a twinky femboy with no sense of humor" (145, 121, 4) Medbay Central"' and 30 seconds later shooting me with a syringe of chloral. How in the world you want me to interpret that as a noble chemist protecting his workspace or the clown he never met before, I have no idea, but I find this completely unreasonable and would ask you to reconsider.

[Vekter]

I've already made my point in my responses to you and I don't have anything to add to the situation. The comment he made was obviously not acceptable but is something that should be handled administratively and wouldn't open him up to additional escalation beyond what's normally expected for any other insult.

I have no intention on further modifying the note or removing it. Headmins already know about the issue and they'll respond when they have time, otherwise I'm done discussing it.

[GPeckman]

Morphine is literally available roundstart. It is sitting on a table in medbay storage in a bottle, or in the vendors. It is completely free, and you can also buy some for cheap from vendors. 30u of it, enough for two syringes. He absolutely did not need to prep chloral, which is known to most people as a poison, and listed on the chem wiki as a toxin.

Its listed as a toxin on the wiki because it is a subtype of

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reagent/toxin

in the code, and this has some mechanical implications. A functional liver will apparently purge toxins if less than 3u of one is present, and some chems like ammoniated mercury will purge toxins and only toxins, not normal chems. It is listed as a toxin on the wiki because listing it as something else would be misleading.

Regarding morphine, it is far slower and less effective than chloral hydrate. Morphine will cause drowsiness (which gives you a chance to fall asleep each tick) after 12 ticks (24 seconds), and is only guaranteed to knock you out after 24 ticks (48 seconds). Meanwhile, chloral hydrate will immediately make you drowsy and confused, and will knock you unconscious guaranteed after only 10 ticks (20 seconds). It is undeniably a far superior sedative.

[sinfulbliss]

The comment he made was obviously not acceptable but is something that should be handled administratively and wouldn't open him up to additional escalation beyond what's normally expected for any other insult.

So you can say absolutely whatever bigoted, deranged, sexually deprived shit you want to someone, and yet it opens them up to no additional escalation? If I were called "ligger" I would be able to round-remove them for that alone, but when they say creepy sexual shit to me before shooting me up with chloral I'm apparently supposed to just bring them to medbay with all of their items and wish them a speedy recovery? That is a completely warped standard to set.

The sole question at the end of the day is:

(1) Given the chemist's actions (the creepy comment followed by the wordless syringe of chloral), was I justified responding in the way I did, with the knowledge I had?

This is a player who has in the past and thereafter continued to metagrudge me, is currently banned for rule 8, and exhibited that behavior in this exact round. They were not an innocent doctor protecting the clown and their workspace, they were a sex pest that wanted an excuse to shoot someone they hated with their gamer chems. No reason or justification was ever communicated to me, they were not only completely uninvolved in the fight but radio silent, and even still after all this I brought them to medbay to be revived.

[Vekter]

(1) Given the chemist's actions (the creepy comment followed by the wordless syringe of chloral), was I justified responding in the way I did, with the knowledge I had?

You did not mention, react to, or even bring up the fact that he said that in this appeal until now. I do not think his words factored into your decision making whatsoever.

I'm handing this off to the head admins at this point. It's clear you and I will not be reaching an understanding on this matter.

[sinfulbliss]

(1) Given the chemist's actions (the creepy comment followed by the wordless syringe of chloral), was I justified responding in the way I did, with the knowledge I had?

You did not mention, react to, or even bring up the fact that he said that in this appeal until now. I do not think his words factored into your decision making whatsoever.

I literally addressed it specifically right after Goof posted the logs (I wrote the OP based on recollection and didn't have the time to logdive at 2am on a Sunday):

(2) The last two comments he uttered are pretty harmless, plus I was dead at that point anyway. The first one “pre-murder” is significantly weirder.
[...]because as the logs show he did say some foul words to me before deciding to syringe me

[sinfulbliss]

Also, Goof posted logs already, and I glossed over this in the appeal -- but he left out Chloe Thomas, another assistant who was doing the same thing as me (beating a clown who was shock touching people):

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[2023-09-24 07:05:49.497] ATTACK: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) attacked Onpine/(Chloe Thomas) with �shock touch (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 80.9)  (Medbay Lobby (148,122,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:49.535] ATTACK: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) cast the touch spell Shock Touch on Onpine/(Chloe Thomas) with the �shock touch (NEWHP: 68.4)  (Medbay Lobby (148,122,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:49.677] GAME-SAY: Onpine/(Chloe Thomas) "thats pretty-OW!" (Medbay Lobby (147,123,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:00.240] ATTACK: Onpine/(Chloe Thomas) punched AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) (NEWHP: 56.3)  (Medbay Central (148,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:01.137] ATTACK: Onpine/(Chloe Thomas) punched AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) (NEWHP: 48.3)  (Medbay Central (148,121,4))

this goes on for a while, she and I both grappling hook the clown for a good bit
it's also important to note that I do not appear to be beating the clown just before the "twinky femboy with no sense of humor" comment, this seems to be in reply to the clown's earlier statement of:

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[2023-09-24 07:05:34.360] GAME-WHISPER: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) "axle" (Medbay Central (148,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:34.858] GAME-SAY: Agux909/(Sonya Collymore) "he's dying" (Medbay Central (148,120,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:34.959] ATTACK: Agux909/(Sonya Collymore) CPRed AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) (NEWHP: -1.5)  (Medbay Central (148,120,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:35.513] ATTACK: *no key*/(Sam Fisher) tended the wounds of AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with internal tools (BRUTE) (NEWHP: 7.5)  (Medbay Central (147,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:37.508] ATTACK: *no key*/(Sam Fisher) tended the wounds of AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with internal tools (BRUTE) (NEWHP: 17.5)  (Medbay Central (147,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:39.516] ATTACK: *no key*/(Sam Fisher) tended the wounds of AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with internal tools (BRUTE) (NEWHP: 27.5)  (Medbay Central (147,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:40.257] GAME-SAY: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) "axle has no idea how to take a joke" (Medbay Central (148,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:41.519] ATTACK: *no key*/(Sam Fisher) tended the wounds of AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with internal tools (BRUTE) (NEWHP: 37.5)  (Medbay Central (147,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:43.028] GAME-SAY: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) "chloe either" (Medbay Central (148,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:43.530] ATTACK: *no key*/(Sam Fisher) tended the wounds of AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with internal tools (BRUTE) (NEWHP: 47.5)  (Medbay Central (147,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:45.353] ATTACK: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) cast the spell Shock Touch. (Medbay Central (148,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:45.616] ATTACK: *no key*/(Sam Fisher) tended the wounds of AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with internal tools (BRUTE) (NEWHP: 57.5)  (Medbay Central (147,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:47.687] ATTACK: *no key*/(Sam Fisher) tended the wounds of AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with internal tools (BRUTE) (NEWHP: 67.5)  (Medbay Central (147,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:51.858] GAME-SAY: *no key*/(Sam Fisher) "Hey, Ponzo The Clown! Hold on, I'm coming." (Medbay Central (147,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:51.944] GAME-EMOTE: Agux909/(Sonya Collymore) gasps in shock! (Medbay Central (150,119,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:54.113] GAME-SAY: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) "take THAT" (Medbay Central (148,119,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:54.826] GAME-SAY: Agux909/(Sonya Collymore) "CLOWN!" (Medbay Central (149,120,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:58.256] GAME-SAY: Agux909/(Sonya Collymore) "ough" (Medbay Central (150,120,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:05:59.547] GAME-SAY: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) "electrifying revenge" (Medbay Central (148,120,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:00.240] ATTACK: Onpine/(Chloe Thomas) punched AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) (NEWHP: 56.3)  (Medbay Central (148,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:00.771] GAME-SAY: Agux909/(Sonya Collymore) "you also hurt me!" (Medbay Central (150,120,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:01.137] ATTACK: Onpine/(Chloe Thomas) punched AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) (NEWHP: 48.3)  (Medbay Central (148,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:01.682] GAME-SAY: AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) "OW" (Medbay Central (148,120,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:02.019] GAME-SAY: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) "axle is well known as a twinky femboy with no sense of humor" (Medbay Central (145,121,4))

Assuming Turbo is replying to the clown here, it seems safe to assume that Turbo is aware of why the clown is being beaten
It's also important to note that Turbo watched the clown be beaten for ~30 seconds before slipping on him and being (presumably accidentally, given you need to occupy the same tile to slip on a clown) struck by a grapping hook

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[2023-09-24 07:06:02.019] GAME-SAY: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) "axle is well known as a twinky femboy with no sense of humor" (Medbay Central (145,121,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:09.666] GAME-EMOTE: Thonk/(Kelly Harshman) points at Turbo Junior (Pharmacy (142,125,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:24.629] ATTACK: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)] (Medbay Treatment Center (149,115,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:24.968] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 85.4)  (Medbay Treatment Center (150,115,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:26.735] ATTACK: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)] (Medbay Treatment Center (149,115,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:27.613] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 80.4)  (Medbay Aft (151,115,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:29.875] GAME-SAY: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) "YO" (Medbay Treatment Center (149,115,4))
	 [2023-09-24 07:06:35.292] ATTACK: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate (15u, 0.214354 purity)) from the syringe to [syringe] (Medbay Treatment Center (147,115,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:35.293] ATTACK: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) fired at SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) with the syringe from Medbay Treatment Center (NEWHP: 61.5)  (Medbay Treatment Center (147,115,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:35.538] ATTACK: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) shot SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) with the syringe REAGENTS: Chloral Hydrate, 15 (NEWHP: 61.5)  (Medbay Treatment Center (147,115,4))

there then appears to be a scuffle, before Turbo is stunned and yells for sec to come to medbay:

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[2023-09-24 07:06:51.430] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) stun attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 80.4)  (Medbay Treatment Center (144,113,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:51.436] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 72.9)  (Medbay Treatment Center (144,113,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:51.451] ATTACK: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)] (Medbay Treatment Center (144,111,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:53.897] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 62.9)  (Medbay Treatment Center (144,113,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:53.952] ATTACK: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)] (Medbay Treatment Center (144,111,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:56.352] ATTACK: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)] (Medbay Treatment Center (144,111,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:57.602] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) stun attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 62.9)  (Medbay Treatment Center (144,111,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:57.608] ATTACK: SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 52.9)  (Medbay Treatment Center (144,111,4))
	[2023-09-24 07:06:59.785] GAME-SAY: Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) "SEC TO MEDBAY" (Medbay Treatment Center (144,111,4))

lastly, why was Chloe (who was specifically said to not have a sense of humor by the clown) not brought up at all by Turbo? if he was trying to save a clown who was being beaten, why did Turbo only ask for sec AFTER shooting a syringe at someone and getting stunned by them? why did he only shoot me with the chloral and ignore Chloe? I think this sheds light on his motive in our interaction.

logs from: https://tgstation13.download/parsed-log ... nd-215210/ both game.txt and attack.txt, sorted by time and searched for "sinful" "turbo" "onpine", then searched for "medbay" to find most all of the fight

[sinfulbliss]

One more thing to add (I promise) because it is apparently causing a big fuss and I'd like to clear the air:

(1) This player was """handled""" by Archie two rounds later, who gave them a note for a pretty bad rule 8 violation not included in this appeal, and metagrudging. I found their response totally unacceptable so I mentioned it to Vekter since he was bwoinking me on Discord already from the day before involving an incident with this same player.

(2) Vekter took it up higher where it was actually handled, resulting in the player getting a break for a couple days at least. I appreciated him doing that.

(3) Vekter was Discord-bwoinking me over 2 prior rounds with this same player. The ticket started at 3am my time on Saturday and continued to around 12am on Sunday. There were around three separate hour-long conversations over this course of time. This was obnoxious but part of it involved handling (2) so he was in my good graces.

(4) Eventually Vekter was satisfied with my replies to both issues the chemist ahelped on each separate round; all was resolved by around 2pm after long discussions. 9 hours later "new information came to light," and he continued the same line of questioning as before at 11pm my time, except this time seemingly more convinced I was in the wrong. At this point I was extremely irritated. Who re-bwoinks you, on Discord no less, 9 hours after they have resolved the ticket, because presumably the currently banned metagrudging creep (who he himself banned) mentioned something new on their own Discord ticket?

(5) I attempted to remain cordial until he called me a liar for failing to remember that I had shoved the clown before they shock-handed me. At this point I decided, this is really excessive for spaceman game. I am on Discord to talk with friends and shitpost, not to answer a 3+ hour ticket over the course of 2 days of the weekend over a currently banned metagrudger's ahelps from a day ago. There is a degree of needing to respect a player's time and needing to have some semblance of perspective about such things, and this was not it. So, I have nothing against Vekter personally, I believe he lacks perspective about this appeal and is enforcing the rules in a sort of blind isolated manner, but that's the extent of it.

[TheBibleMelts]

bro i ain't digging through all this salt over a note. let's back it up and not let it get clogged with lawyering nonsense again.

we're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

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 In round 215210, crit, dismembered, and looted a doctor because they shot them with a 15u chloral hydrate syringe to stop them from beating a clown to death. The clown was already far into crit at the point when they were shot. Claims they believed the doctor was an antagonist because they consider chloral to be a "lethal chemical", despite the fact that 15 units isn't enough to leave you knocked out long enough to do any toxin damage. Found no antagonist gear on them when they looted them but still chose to dismember them and deliver them to medical. This is an over-escalation; you had no reason to consider the doctor an antagonist.

here are your attack logs against the clown post-critical.

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07:04:11	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) kicked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) (NEWHP: -1.1)	(148, 113, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:04:18	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -6.9)	(146, 118, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:04:19	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -6.9)	(146, 117, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:04:43	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -11.5)	(148, 128, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
07:04:44	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -16.5)	(148, 128, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
07:04:45	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -21.5)	(149, 128, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
07:04:46	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -26.5)	(149, 128, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
07:04:47	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked [��Starboard Primary Hallway omni air vent cMrjM] with the emergency climbing hook	(149, 128, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
07:04:48	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -31.5)	(148, 128, 4)	Starboard Primary Hallway
07:04:49	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -36.5)	(148, 126, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:04:56	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -42.9)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:04:57	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -48.5)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:04:58	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -54.2)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:05:00	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -59.2)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:05:01	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -64.9)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:05:02	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -69.9)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:05:02	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -75.5)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:05:03	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -80.5)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:05:04	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -86.2)	(146, 123, 4)	Medbay Lobby

17 attacks against this downed person. you probably looked like a bloodied lunatic to anybody that was within eyeshot.

it looks like the clown was at some point healed up a bit, and the family-guy chicken fight continued. notably, it looks like you hit the chemist twice before they shot you.

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07:06:07	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) shoved AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with knocking them down (NEWHP: 43.3)	(146, 120, 4)	Medbay Central
07:06:08	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)]	(148, 120, 4)	Medbay Central
07:06:08	ATTACK	AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) attacked SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) with �shock touch (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 74)	(148, 120, 4)	Medbay Central
07:06:09	ATTACK	AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) cast the touch spell Shock Touch on SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) with the �shock touch (NEWHP: 61.5)	(148, 120, 4)	Medbay Central
07:06:09	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with pocket crowbar (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 20)	(149, 120, 4)	Medbay Central
07:06:13	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) stun attacked *no key*/(Sam Fisher) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 9)	(148, 120, 4)	Medbay Central
07:06:13	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Sam Fisher) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -1)	(148, 120, 4)	Medbay Central
07:06:15	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -15)	(151, 119, 4)	Medbay Central
07:06:17	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)]	(153, 118, 4)	Medbay Aft
07:06:17	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)]	(153, 117, 4)	Medbay Aft
07:06:18	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)]	(153, 116, 4)	Medbay Aft
07:06:18	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) stun attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with the stun baton (NEWHP: -25)	(152, 116, 4)	Medbay Aft
07:06:18	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -35)	(152, 116, 4)	Medbay Aft
07:06:24	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 85.4)	(150, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:25	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -56.3)	(150, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:26	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -60.1)	(151, 115, 4)	Medbay Aft
07:06:27	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 80.4)	(151, 115, 4)	Medbay Aft
07:06:29	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -66.4)	(146, 112, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:30	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -71.4)	(147, 112, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:31	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -77.1)	(147, 112, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:32	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -82.1)	(147, 112, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:33	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -87.1)	(147, 112, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:33	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -90.4)	(147, 112, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:34	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -95.4)	(147, 112, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:35	ATTACK	Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) fired at SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) with the syringe from Medbay Treatment Center (NEWHP: 61.5)	(147, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
07:06:35	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked AZHaste/(Ponzo The Clown) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -98)

you were still acting like a violent lunatic and beating a dying clown, had attacked the chemist themselves, and made no indication you were going to stop on your own.

why is a chemist with an easily brewable chem automatically an antagonist in your eyes when it's used in their own workplace, in public, to defend themselves and get rid of a rowdy assistant? i'm not accepting the "kill-chem" excuse - chloral has been the knockout juice for as long as I have played, and has never killed at 15u.

these logs indicate you had both a stun baton and handcuffs able to be used to search him to confirm or deny your suspicions before needing to kill him.

Code: Select all

07:08:43	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 55.4)	(144, 125, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:08:43	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) stun attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 62.9)	(144, 125, 4)	Medbay Lobby
07:08:48	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) stun attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with the stun baton (NEWHP: 55.4)	(143, 119, 3)	Morgue
07:08:48	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with stun baton (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 47.8)	(143, 119, 3)	Morgue
07:08:49	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) grabbed Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) passive grab (NEWHP: 47.8)	(143, 119, 3)	Morgue
07:08:52	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 36.6)	(144, 110, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:08:53	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 25.3)	(144, 107, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:08:54	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(143, 104, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:08:55	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(142, 101, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:08:56	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(142, 98, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:08:57	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 18.9)	(140, 96, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:08:59	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: 4.2)	(138, 94, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:00	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked [red scrubbers pipe] with the welding tool	(138, 94, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:01	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -10.5)	(140, 96, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:03	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with welding tool (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BURN) (NEWHP: -25.2)	(140, 96, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:05	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) grabbed Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) passive grab (NEWHP: -24.9)	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:10	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) is stripping Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the medical syringe gun.	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:10	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) is stripping Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the medical belt.	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:10	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) is stripping Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the medical satchel.	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:11	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) is pickpocketing Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the handheld crew monitor (left)	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:11	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) is pickpocketing Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the kitchen knife (right)	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:13	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) has stripped Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the medical syringe gun.	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:14	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) has stripped Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the medical belt.	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:14	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) has stripped Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the medical satchel.	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:14	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) has stripped Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the handheld crew monitor.	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:14	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) has stripped Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) of the kitchen knife.	(140, 95, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:31	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) transferred reagents (/datum/reagent/toxin/chloralhydrate (15u, 0.286206 purity)) from the syringe to [syringe]	(140, 94, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:31	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) fired at Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with the syringe from Morgue Maintenance (NEWHP: -23.5)	(140, 94, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:31	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) shot Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with the syringe REAGENTS: Chloral Hydrate, 15 (NEWHP: -23.5)	(140, 94, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:09:35	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attempted to handcuff Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) (NEWHP: -29.5)	(140, 94, 3)	Morgue Maintenance

addressing the looting part of this note - i would also say that it is factual due to the logs showing that you used his own syringe/chems against him. are you arguing that you only looted him a little? i'd say just go for the gusto and say you only dismembered him a little if we're going to be stretching definitions. which brings us to the delimbing itself.

Code: Select all

07:11:18	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -248.3)	(139, 94, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:19	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -259.6)	(140, 94, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:20	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -270.8)	(140, 96, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:21	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -274)	(142, 97, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:22	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -274)	(142, 97, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:23	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -299.1)	(142, 97, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:25	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -264.8)	(142, 97, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:26	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -264.8)	(142, 97, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:27	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -264.8)	(142, 100, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:28	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -298.8)	(143, 102, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:30	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked [red scrubbers pipe] with the circular saw	(144, 107, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:31	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -272.6)	(144, 110, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:31	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -282.9)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:32	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -294.1)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:33	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -294.1)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:34	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -294.1)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:35	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -294.1)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:36	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -319.2)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:38	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -293)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:39	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -304.2)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:40	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -307)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:41	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -307)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:42	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -307)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:11:43	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked *no key*/(Turbo Junior) with circular saw (COMBAT MODE: 0) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: -332.1)	(143, 113, 3)	Morgue Maintenance
07:12:04	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) temp shocked for 30 seconds [Morgue Maintenance]	(143, 116, 3)	Morgue Maintenance

for what purpose did you need to do this? you clearly didn't think he was an antagonist or you wouldn't have brought him back to the medbay.

if you respond to this with an essaypost about how badly he hurt your feelings in other rounds or bring up other baggage unrelated to arguing what makes this note nonfactual, i'm going to just assume you're trying to stir the pot and waste our time, and i'm going to vote to uphold this note immediately.

[sinfulbliss]

we're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

I am appealing both because the note is unjustifiably harsh and because:

There [is] a difference between how an admin who knew all the facts would view you vs how an admin who only had the note to go on would view you.

(viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44#p347563)
An admin who knew all the facts involved would probably think something like: "a player who had been metagrudging him shot him with a chloral syringe after saying some creepy shit to him and got his legs cut off, that checks out"; an admin who just read the note would think "Sinful brutally murdered and robbed this poor med doc just defending his workplace, what a shitter."

17 attacks against this downed person. you probably looked like a bloodied lunatic to anybody that was within eyeshot.

The reason it's 17 is because I'm intentionally using a grappling hook that does minor damage. A family-guy chicken fight is a funny way to describe what was going on.

you were still acting like a violent lunatic and beating a dying clown, had attacked the chemist themselves, and made no indication you were going to stop on your own.

I was beating a dying clown who told me to kill myself and had shocked me and several other people multiple times with an upgraded shockhand, in medbay no less. I think you'd agree I was justified in doing this. The chemist never asked me to stop or uttered a word. I was in a conflict that did not involve him and for which he had no context. I've pieced together from the logs that the chemist slipped on the clown that was being attacked and as a result was hit a couple times himself with the equivalent of maybe two punches, but it was extremely clear it was the clown and not him being attacked.

why is a chemist with an easily brewable chem automatically an antagonist in your eyes when it's used in their own workplace, in public, to defend themselves and get rid of a rowdy assistant? i'm not accepting the "kill-chem" excuse - chloral has been the knockout juice for as long as I have played, and has never killed at 15u.

Aside from my incorrect belief chloral was a kill chem, there were a few factors. First how it was entirely wordless, he never asked me to leave or said to stop hitting the clown or anything at all. I had zero prior interactions with him. Second because he explicitly targeted me and ignored the person I was with doing the exact same thing - perhaps I was a target, I thought. Third because he never called for sec or asked for help during the entire beating of the clown, he only called for them after syringing me and getting cuffed; so it seemed he shot poison into someone in an unrelated conflict for the hell of it. He also wasn't defending himself by any stretch of the imagination; he had materialized out of no where and wordlessly shot me with chloral.

these logs indicate you had both a stun baton and handcuffs able to be used to search him to confirm or deny your suspicions before needing to kill him.

I play a lot of sec and the absence of antag gear does not confirm someone to be a nonantag (I wish it were that easy). Several antags have no explicit gear with them, and many antags antagonize without buying gear.

which brings us to the delimbing itself.[...]for what purpose did you need to do this? you clearly didn't think he was an antagonist or you wouldn't have brought him back to the medbay.

I brought him to medbay because I know this is a game with incomplete information, and there's always an off-chance I was wrong. Sometimes it's best to err on the side of caution and bring them to medbay. As for the delimbing, I did that because I felt it was merited for the combination of being a creep and what reasonably appeared to me to be an attempt on my life.

if you respond to this with an essaypost about how badly he hurt your feelings in other rounds or bring up other baggage unrelated to arguing what makes this note nonfactual, i'm going to just assume you're trying to stir the pot and waste our time, and i'm going to vote to uphold this note immediately.

The only reason I brought up the other rounds was to cast doubt on the idea that the chemist was playing in good faith to defend his workplace, and more likely his goal was to try to get at someone he disliked OOCly with IC justification. I brought up the "axle is well known as a twinky femboy with no sense of humor" logs not to cry over mean words being said about me, but to show that saying this 30 seconds before shooting me with chloral ought to show his intent, and should allow me to take the further escalation I did in delimbing him.

[PengisBungholius]

Code: Select all

...
07:06:24	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 85.4)	(150, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
...
07:06:27	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 80.4)	(151, 115, 4)	Medbay Aft
...

you were still acting like a violent lunatic and beating a dying clown, had attacked the chemist themselves, and made no indication you were going to stop on your own.

Code: Select all

07:06:24	ATTACK	Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)]	(149, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
	...
	07:06:26	ATTACK	Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)]	(149, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center

slipping on a clown requires you to step on them, spam clicking a clown with a 5-brute weapon dozens of times would probably have you click on anyone who steps said clown

(logs from attack.txt, searching for "slip" and looking for the times that sinful attacked turbo)

[TheBibleMelts]

Code: Select all

...
07:06:24	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 85.4)	(150, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
...
07:06:27	ATTACK	SinfulBliss/(Axle Brady) attacked Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) with emergency climbing hook (COMBAT MODE: 1) (DAMTYPE: BRUTE) (NEWHP: 80.4)	(151, 115, 4)	Medbay Aft
...

you were still acting like a violent lunatic and beating a dying clown, had attacked the chemist themselves, and made no indication you were going to stop on your own.

Code: Select all

07:06:24	ATTACK	Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)]	(149, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center
	...
	07:06:26	ATTACK	Pepperoni Playboy/(Turbo Junior) slipped on the [Ponzo The Clown (Clown)]	(149, 115, 4)	Medbay Treatment Center

slipping on a clown requires you to step on them, spam clicking a clown with a 5-brute weapon dozens of times would probably have you click on anyone who steps said clown

(logs from attack.txt, searching for "slip" and looking for the times that sinful attacked turbo)

a good catch if this was indeed the cause of the attacks, but it doesn't really change that he was still beating a player who was in critical in the first place as the root cause of these swings. i would fault no department worker for stopping this from happening in their workplace, much less so if i got clocked a couple times by the guys manic clicking.

[TheBibleMelts]

we're going to look purely at the note, what it describes, and if said note is inaccurate. notes are meant to establish behavior patterns, leave context for admins in future situations, and tell those admins if you stick your hand in the candy bowl too many times.

I am appealing both because the note is unjustifiably harsh and because:

There [is] a difference between how an admin who knew all the facts would view you vs how an admin who only had the note to go on would view you.

(viewtopic.php?f=7&t=44#p347563)
An admin who knew all the facts involved would probably think something like: "a player who had been metagrudging him shot him with a chloral syringe after saying some creepy shit to him and got his legs cut off, that checks out"; an admin who just read the note would think "Sinful brutally murdered and robbed this poor med doc just defending his workplace, what a shitter."

17 attacks against this downed person. you probably looked like a bloodied lunatic to anybody that was within eyeshot.

The reason it's 17 is because I'm intentionally using a grappling hook that does minor damage. A family-guy chicken fight is a funny way to describe what was going on.

you were still acting like a violent lunatic and beating a dying clown, had attacked the chemist themselves, and made no indication you were going to stop on your own.

I was beating a dying clown who told me to kill myself and had shocked me and several other people multiple times with an upgraded shockhand, in medbay no less. I think you'd agree I was justified in doing this. The chemist never asked me to stop or uttered a word. I was in a conflict that did not involve him and for which he had no context. I've pieced together from the logs that the chemist slipped on the clown that was being attacked and as a result was hit a couple times himself with the equivalent of maybe two punches, but it was extremely clear it was the clown and not him being attacked.

why is a chemist with an easily brewable chem automatically an antagonist in your eyes when it's used in their own workplace, in public, to defend themselves and get rid of a rowdy assistant? i'm not accepting the "kill-chem" excuse - chloral has been the knockout juice for as long as I have played, and has never killed at 15u.

Aside from my incorrect belief chloral was a kill chem, there were a few factors. First how it was entirely wordless, he never asked me to leave or said to stop hitting the clown or anything at all. I had zero prior interactions with him. Second because he explicitly targeted me and ignored the person I was with doing the exact same thing - perhaps I was a target, I thought. Third because he never called for sec or asked for help during the entire beating of the clown, he only called for them after syringing me and getting cuffed; so it seemed he shot poison into someone in an unrelated conflict for the hell of it. He also wasn't defending himself by any stretch of the imagination; he had materialized out of no where and wordlessly shot me with chloral.

these logs indicate you had both a stun baton and handcuffs able to be used to search him to confirm or deny your suspicions before needing to kill him.

I play a lot of sec and the absence of antag gear does not confirm someone to be a nonantag (I wish it were that easy). Several antags have no explicit gear with them, and many antags antagonize without buying gear.

which brings us to the delimbing itself.[...]for what purpose did you need to do this? you clearly didn't think he was an antagonist or you wouldn't have brought him back to the medbay.

I brought him to medbay because I know this is a game with incomplete information, and there's always an off-chance I was wrong. Sometimes it's best to err on the side of caution and bring them to medbay. As for the delimbing, I did that because I felt it was merited for the combination of being a creep and what reasonably appeared to me to be an attempt on my life.

if you respond to this with an essaypost about how badly he hurt your feelings in other rounds or bring up other baggage unrelated to arguing what makes this note nonfactual, i'm going to just assume you're trying to stir the pot and waste our time, and i'm going to vote to uphold this note immediately.

The only reason I brought up the other rounds was to cast doubt on the idea that the chemist was playing in good faith to defend his workplace, and more likely his goal was to try to get at someone he disliked OOCly with IC justification. I brought up the "axle is well known as a twinky femboy with no sense of humor" logs not to cry over mean words being said about me, but to show that saying this 30 seconds before shooting me with chloral ought to show his intent, and should allow me to take the further escalation I did in delimbing him.

thank you for helping boil this down better. i'll try to respond to each point with my viewpoint.

An admin who knew all the facts involved would probably think something like: "a player who had been metagrudging him shot him with a chloral syringe after saying some creepy shit to him and got his legs cut off, that checks out"; an admin who just read the note would think "Sinful brutally murdered and robbed this poor med doc just defending his workplace, what a shitter."

i think that this is what a lot of the note appeal is boiling down to, isn't it? you feel like you were noted over an interaction with somebody that has been metagrudging you - thus rendering your actions as more understandable and theirs as more harmful. i would like you to know that i sympathize with you and understand where you're coming from, but you let this OOC infraction turn into an ingame problem. reach out to us, help us set precedents. i denied an appeal the other day because somebody turned what they perceived as an OOC rulebreak into an IC conflict. said player was responsible for what they did in the game at the end of the day, and us not having been able to nip the problem in the bud before they escalated things and muddied the waters only served to help their perceived aggressors argument of innocence. if you think you're experiencing an OOC issue, take it to us right away. otherwise, you end up creating more ambiguity about the situation than there needs to be, as we're experiencing here.

I was beating a dying clown who told me to kill myself and had shocked me and several other people multiple times with an upgraded shockhand, in medbay no less. I think you'd agree I was justified in doing this. The chemist never asked me to stop or uttered a word. I was in a conflict that did not involve him and for which he had no context. I've pieced together from the logs that the chemist slipped on the clown that was being attacked and as a result was hit a couple times himself with the equivalent of maybe two punches, but it was extremely clear it was the clown and not him being attacked.

you were beating up a clown who said mean words to you, took it to the point of absurdity, and made it an issue for other people. an assistant loose and causing a brawl in the middle of a medical center is absolutely cause for a swift boot-out of said medical center.

Aside from my incorrect belief chloral was a kill chem, there were a few factors. First how it was entirely wordless, he never asked me to leave or said to stop hitting the clown or anything at all. I had zero prior interactions with him. Second because he explicitly targeted me and ignored the person I was with doing the exact same thing - perhaps I was a target, I thought. Third because he never called for sec or asked for help during the entire beating of the clown, he only called for them after syringing me and getting cuffed; so it seemed he shot poison into someone in an unrelated conflict for the hell of it. He also wasn't defending himself by any stretch of the imagination; he had materialized out of no where and wordlessly shot me with chloral.

i'd absolutely love to enforce a little more roleplay on our LRP servers regarding using words to try and de-escalate situations like this, but my term is yet young and the anti-roleplay groups squeal when told to use their words or roleplay to inform their actions. this is something i hope to change up a bit and hope i'll have your support both on the forums and ingame to encourage a higher standard of roleplaying things out instead of playing the Escalation Policy simulator that i'm growing to think is a systemic playstyle issue.

it's entirely a possibility that he targetted you specifically, and it's a shame that your response was so swift and brutal that the opportunity to let that player dig that hole for himself and make it undeniably the case never had the chance to present itself. notes have been placed in regards to this on his account, and if he chooses to dig that hole all the way to a permanent ban, i think we'll both be happy with the results of that.

I play a lot of sec and the absence of antag gear does not confirm someone to be a nonantag (I wish it were that easy). Several antags have no explicit gear with them, and many antags antagonize without buying gear.

okay, but you weren't security here, and the slope for the argument of assuming someone is a traitor despite no actual evidence is coated with space lube.

The only reason I brought up the other rounds was to cast doubt on the idea that the chemist was playing in good faith to defend his workplace, and more likely his goal was to try to get at someone he disliked OOCly with IC justification. I brought up the "axle is well known as a twinky femboy with no sense of humor" logs not to cry over mean words being said about me, but to show that saying this 30 seconds before shooting me with chloral ought to show his intent, and should allow me to take the further escalation I did in delimbing him.

i feel like i kind of covered this already in my quotes above.

[sinfulbliss]

you let this OOC infraction turn into an ingame problem[...]if you think you're experiencing an OOC issue, take it to us right away. otherwise, you end up creating more ambiguity about the situation than there needs to be, as we're experiencing here.

Doesn't it make sense to be able to respond to overt IC creepiness with IC escalation? I did end up ahelping him two rounds later when it became outright vile. The whole experience left an absolutely foul taste in my mouth and I immediately regretted it. So if it's just a singular creepy sexualizing comment, as it was here, I'd much prefer to keep things IC, respond to it as my character would respond to it, and be able to enjoy the rest of my round and night. It seems wrong to protect creepy sexpests from IC retaliation just because an admin solution is preferable.

you were beating up a clown who said mean words to you, took it to the point of absurdity, and made it an issue for other people. an assistant loose and causing a brawl in the middle of a medical center is absolutely cause for a swift boot-out of said medical center.

I didn't beat him up for saying mean words to me. I beat him up primarily because he shockhanded me and Chloe multiple times in and around medbay, doing signficant damage to us. I would expect what someone would do if they wanted to boot another out of medical for causing a disturbance would be, for starters, asking them to stop or leave. Calling for sec. Shoving them away. Doing basically anything that isn't shooting them wordlessly with poison like an insane person. It wasn't like I was harassing the doctors either, I was sitting still hitting the clown with a grappling hook.

okay, but you weren't security here, and the slope for the argument of assuming someone is a traitor despite no actual evidence is coated with space lube.

I agree completely - that's why I opted to deliver him to medbay to be revived instead of chucking his brain into space.

it's entirely a possibility that he targetted you specifically, and it's a shame that your response was so swift and brutal that the opportunity to let that player dig that hole for himself and make it undeniably the case never had the chance to present itself.

I believe I've provided adequate evidence to show he targeted me specifically, and he has himself provided great support of this fact through his behavior which I've tried highlighting here. At the end of the day it is your call though.

[TheBibleMelts]

you let this OOC infraction turn into an ingame problem[...]if you think you're experiencing an OOC issue, take it to us right away. otherwise, you end up creating more ambiguity about the situation than there needs to be, as we're experiencing here.

Doesn't it make sense to be able to respond to overt IC creepiness with IC escalation? I did end up ahelping him two rounds later when it became outright vile. The whole experience left an absolutely foul taste in my mouth and I immediately regretted it. So if it's just a singular creepy sexualizing comment, as it was here, I'd much prefer to keep things IC, respond to it as my character would respond to it, and be able to enjoy the rest of my round and night. It seems wrong to protect creepy sexpests from IC retaliation just because an admin solution is preferable.

you were beating up a clown who said mean words to you, took it to the point of absurdity, and made it an issue for other people. an assistant loose and causing a brawl in the middle of a medical center is absolutely cause for a swift boot-out of said medical center.

I didn't beat him up for saying mean words to me. I beat him up primarily because he shockhanded me and Chloe multiple times in and around medbay, doing signficant damage to us. I would expect what someone would do if they wanted to boot another out of medical for causing a disturbance would be, for starters, asking them to stop or leave. Calling for sec. Shoving them away. Doing basically anything that isn't shooting them wordlessly with poison like an insane person. It wasn't like I was harassing the doctors either, I was sitting still hitting the clown with a grappling hook.

okay, but you weren't security here, and the slope for the argument of assuming someone is a traitor despite no actual evidence is coated with space lube.

I agree completely - that's why I opted to deliver him to medbay to be revived instead of chucking his brain into space.

it's entirely a possibility that he targetted you specifically, and it's a shame that your response was so swift and brutal that the opportunity to let that player dig that hole for himself and make it undeniably the case never had the chance to present itself.

I believe I've provided adequate evidence to show he targeted me specifically, and he has himself provided great support of this fact through his behavior which I've tried highlighting here. At the end of the day it is your call though.

alright, i think this is probably a good stopping point since we're likely going to end up in an argument ouroboros (i think some of my snipped text in the above quotes already addressed some of these points) if we continue. thank you for helping boil some things down here, it's going to make it easier to cook on a final outcome when we get time to discuss it in the headbus.

[TheBibleMelts]

the results are in.

tbm - uphold for what i've already stated in this thread
cheshify - uphold note as-is
fikou - uphold the presence of a note, but wished for more context to be added

[sinfulbliss]

the results are in.

tbm - uphold for what i've already stated in this thread
cheshify - uphold note as-is
fikou - uphold the presence of a note, but wished for more context to be added

Can an expiration date be set on this note, even if it's 6 months or something? I think if nothing else we can agree to the fact that they were metagrudging me and being creepy played into my actions and apparent over-escalation, even though that's mentioned no where in the note.

[TheBibleMelts]

the results are in.

tbm - uphold for what i've already stated in this thread
cheshify - uphold note as-is
fikou - uphold the presence of a note, but wished for more context to be added

Can an expiration date be set on this note, even if it's 6 months or something? I think if nothing else we can agree to the fact that they were metagrudging me and being creepy played into my actions and apparent over-escalation, even though that's mentioned no where in the note.

no

[sinfulbliss]

the results are in.

tbm - uphold for what i've already stated in this thread
cheshify - uphold note as-is
fikou - uphold the presence of a note, but wished for more context to be added

Can an expiration date be set on this note, even if it's 6 months or something? I think if nothing else we can agree to the fact that they were metagrudging me and being creepy played into my actions and apparent over-escalation, even though that's mentioned no where in the note.

no

L term

[TheBibleMelts]

the results are in.

tbm - uphold for what i've already stated in this thread
cheshify - uphold note as-is
fikou - uphold the presence of a note, but wished for more context to be added

Can an expiration date be set on this note, even if it's 6 months or something? I think if nothing else we can agree to the fact that they were metagrudging me and being creepy played into my actions and apparent over-escalation, even though that's mentioned no where in the note.

no

L term

at your service